July 7, 2019 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1753753
Keraveltheint and yeshivish rockstar, I am becoming increasingly convinced your descriptions may be heresy ch’v. Malachim have no independent power or will. They have missions. They are creations without independent influence that implement Hashem’s will. What you are describing are people that intercede not only through prayer, but though power given to them by Hashem. That sounds very much like the description of rambam in the beginning of laws of avoda Zara. That people used mediums to talk to to give them power instead of going directly to the source. Rambam call this a grave error. Tzadikim prayers and blessings are more easily listened to. I think saying they have power is kefira CH’V.July 8, 2019 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1753765
Mod: The words are spelled deity and deify, from the Latin deus, meaning god (with a small g).July 8, 2019 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1753785
I suspect you neglected to read what both Yeshivish Rockstar, and I posted above.
The Tzadik has no power that is his own, all his strength is from his connection to Hashem. When a person asks a tzadik for a bracha, they aren’t asking the tzadik to fulfill their bracha, they are asking the tzadik to intercede on their behalf with Hashem, because they admit that the tzadik has a closer connection with Hashem.
How can this be? It’s explained in the works of Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R HaRaSHa”B, that every Jew has the ability, in pontetia, to reveal the essence of their soul, which is from the essential depths of G-dliness (Atmus u’Mehus B”H, as it says in kisvei HaAri Z”L, that the essence of the yechida of a Jewish neshama is “Nitzutz haBorei b’nitzutz HaNivra”) through the avodah of Torah and Mitzvos.
Practically, however, the only individuals who are successful in reaching this madreiga in avoda are tzadikim. And being that tzadikim have revealed their inner connectedness with Hashem (which all Jews share in potential), we rely on them to direct us in how to serve Hashem, and ask them for brachos in certain situations. Knowing full well, however, that the will of the tzadik is the will of Hashem, and that the tzadik is powerless to help by himself, and that it is Hashem who sends the yeshua.
And how do we know this? Because the tzadik after giving one a bracha, reminds one that the yeshua will come from Hashem, and that one must increase in their Torah and Mitzvos in order to be worthy of receiving such a hashpa, which normally they wouldn’t have been shaych to.
That’s a huge difference between the case here, and the case in the beginning of hilchos avoda zara. Here it is clear that Hashem sends the yeshua, and the tzadik himself even reminds the person, either in their Toros, or in the words of their bracha itself, that everything comes from HASHEM. By the beginning of hilchos avoda zara, the RaMBaM is describing a case where people were confused and very much believed that Hashem gave reshus to the stars to give hashpa separately and INDEPENDANTLY. Which would be kefira and A”Z.
However, to say that Hashem runs the world by using certain stars as an agent to give over a certain hashpa, is no different than saying that Hashem is mazon es hakol, by allowing us to slaughter kosher animals and eat them, and thus to derive life force and sustenance from them.
Does that mean that the cow was a separate reshus and it, separately and independently gives us life force and sustenance CH”V? NO! It means that the way that Hashem chose to create the world is by being mazon us through us eating gashmius food and that that cow was what Hashem determined would be the shliach so to speak, through which we’d derive the sustenance that Hashem intended for us in the first place.July 8, 2019 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1753847
“The Rebbe Shlit”a explained, That he would hear often from him (HaRebbe of Dzhikov), that for tzadikim the strength is given from Shomayim to run the world how they desire it to be run, they hold the world in their hands…
I suspect you neglected to read what both Yeshivish Rockstar, and I posted above.
The Tzadik has no power that is his own, all his strength is from his connection to Hashem. “
I read you words carefully.I cannot comment on the substance of your heart or mind. I do know however that you are writing that they are given power over this world. What those words say is that they are given an ability to control this world by Hashem. That is very literally the grave error quoted by the rambam. As mentioned previously ,that is totally different than both angels and righteous people praying for and blessing us. When the have no independent power given by Hashem or otherwise. In the angels case they are implementing Hashem’s will as messenger. And tzadikim who are like a Ben bayis,(see third Perek of taanis) are sometimes listened to when others aren’t. That is totally different from the above mentioned quotes! We don’t need mediums. I only want Hashem’s will. not the given will of rebbes or tzadikim. I don’t trust them. They are great well meaning people. But I only trust Hashem. Let him run the world he does a better job.July 8, 2019 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1753929
I agree with what keravelt says 100% in regards to tzadikim. Well stated.
Keravelt – now that we have a normal lubavicher whos a maamin, can you please tell me – honetly – in your opinion, what percentage of lubavichers agree with you and what percentage believe the rebbe “could” or “is” or “will be” moshaich? So far in the coffee room, you’re the only one (maybe Sechel Hayashar, but I haven’t seen a straight answer from him yet.) What about in the real world?July 8, 2019 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1753982
Well in that case I cannot help you. I did try my best thoughJuly 8, 2019 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1754306
The quote you listed above isn’t my quote or my words, but rather the words of Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R of Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok SHLIT”A, quoting the words of his Rebbe, HaRebbi of Dzhikov ZY”A. If you believe they are making a “grave mistake” then you pretty much believe all chassidim and all Rebbeim, of all courts, are making a “grave mistake”.
Either that, or you failed to understand the quote in the correct way, or that you simply haven’t learned enough. I’ll let you be the judge of what you feel is a more likely scenario. No hard feelings, I’m glad we were able to have a civil discourse B”H. You seem like a very good natured and kind person, and I thank Hashem for the opportunity to have had this conversation with you.
Yeshivish Rockstar, I have no idea as to the exact demographics that exist within Lubavitch. I correct people when the conversation comes up, and make my opinion and beliefs known to anyone I have influence over in my life. Other than that, however, there’s not that much more I can do, unfortunately. It certainly disturbs me when I hear views espoused that are contrary to Yiddishkeit.
I definitely am not part of Chabad for the politics, or for the clear shtus d’leumas zeh that messianism represents. I am here because I believe limud chassidus Chabad provides a huge opportunity to direct my Yiddishkeit, and to develop a deep understanding of G-dliness. So I try to work on my own understanding, and whenever I can, develop and spread my influence in Lubavitch. IY”H there are others who have the same understanding who are working to do the same.July 8, 2019 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1754351
I am not familiar with chassiudus. I am familiar with Jewish hashkafa and rambam. You quoted a newspaper article that I have no access to and can’t verify. Kindly quote an actual Sefer preferably a Sefer that is by a gadol. I would be happy to look it up.July 8, 2019 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #1754359
If you want to know about the power of tzadikim, and preferably from sefarim written by “gedolim,” I suggest you learn the Noam Elimelech (R’ Elimelech of Lizhensk) each week in addition to the Zera Kodesh (R’ Naftoli Ropshitzer).July 8, 2019 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #1754361
Let me start with the source I am most familiar with, namely, Tanya, from Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R HaZoken ZY”A.
In Perek 2 it states: “for the nuture and life-force of the nefesh, ruach, and neshamah of the amei haaretz are drawn from the nefesh, ruach, and neshamah of the righteous and the sages, the “heads” of Israel in their generation.” “This explains the comment of our Sages on the verse, “And cleave unto Him (which the sages explain in ketuvos 111b means, “He who cleaves unto a Torah scholar is deemed by the Torah to have mamesh become attached to the Shechinah”
Thus by following this reasoning, one could reason that if tzadikim are indeed where the “nurture” and “life-force” of the general Jewish population are drawn from, and that how the Jewish people behave effects how Hashem chooses to interact with the world (as I brought b’loshon Nefesh HaChaim in an earlier post), then one can see that tzadikim directing the Jewish people and connecting them to Hashem effects how Hashem chooses to run the world. Which is what I was claiming above, and I believe how Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R of Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok interpreted the quote from his Rebbe ZY”A. Thus, it would follow that Rebbeim do indeed have an effect on this world, which was the entire intention of my original post to come and prove.
Furthermore, and this is more shakey as I do not have the sefer in front of me, nor do I have access to the sefer at this moment: but as I recall, it quotes in Kedushas Noam Elimelech (not to be confused with stam Noam Elimelech. This sefer has an added section of Rebbeim from the next generation giving praises about the Baal Noam Elimelech ZY”A.), from Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R from Belz ZY”A (could be wrong in this attribution of the quote, but the quote exists there) stating, “all the teshuva which is done in this world is done with the strength of the Rebbe Rebbe Elimelech, for it has not passed one hundred years since his passing.” V’Chu V’Chu.
Furthermore, there’s simply this quote from Moed Katan 16b:
אמר אלהי ישראל לי דבר צור ישראל מושל באדם צדיק מושל יראת אלהים מאי קאמר א”ר אבהו ה”ק אמר אלהי ישראל לי דבר צור ישראל אני מושל באדם מי מושל בי צדיק שאני גוזר גזרה ומבטלהJuly 9, 2019 1:02 am at 1:02 am #1754386
Keraveltheint Let’s discuss your points one at a time. firstly, I would like to reiterate, the idea that I make issue with, is the assertion that tzadikim have power to run the world how they see fit. Even if that power is from Hashem. I don’t take issue with the classical Jewish concept that Hashem takes care of those that are close to him. “Tzadik gozer HKBH mekayem” see previously mentioned Gemara in taanis. That is a way Hashem runs the world. If that is your only point we agree. I also Accept the other classical Jewish concept, that Hashem does things in the zechus of tzadikim (Yakov in mitzrayim, us every yomim noraim with Aikeda etc..). What I take serious issue with is what you seem to be saying that tzadikim have power based on their wants and will (that comes from Hashem).
Let’s discuss your sources
1) doesn’t seem compelling to me but also doesn’t seem like a problematic viewpoint.
2) classical Jewish thought that makes perfect sense chazal are filled with discussions on tzadikim zechuyos
3) How do you understand that? Rashi spells out that the tzadikim “rule over” Hashem. Does that mean through their power Ch’v! Clearly not. I understand that to mean Hashem doesn’t like saying know to his close children. As previously mentioned numerous times.July 9, 2019 7:52 am at 7:52 am #1754395
“Hashem doesn’t like saying know to his close children.” I made a typo the word is no not “know”.July 9, 2019 7:54 am at 7:54 am #1754397
Ker-a-velt is doing an excellent job of explaining the tzaddik. Lekutei Moharan is a great source of info as well.
There’s a website called “Identifying Chabad” which purports to show that Chabad is a”z. While the website makes some good points, he displays an utter lack of knowledge of classical chassidus, which results in him calling claims made by all classic chasidish sefarim, accepted by everybody (i.e, Noam Elimelech, Tanya, Kedushas Levi) kefira, and tries to pin those claims on Chabad. Grey Matter, you also seem to have that same issue. I have studiously tried to avoid that, and tried to only bring claims unique to contemporary Chabad that cannot even be sourced to the Rebbe (ie, the Rebbe is Moshiach, is found in all objects and is memale kol olmin, one may daven to him, etc) which are complete and utter kefira.
BTW, Keravelt, I loved how you nonchalantly explained the atzmus sicha in a noncontroversial way without bringing attention to it. If only all chabadniks had the brains to understand it like you (which IMHO was the Rebbe’s original intention, as he clearly states in that sicha he is not meaning to say anything controversial and should be interpreted as such).
I have a hunch that chabadniks who study nonchabad Torah and/or are familiar with the original chassidic sefarim are much more likely to interpret the Rebbe’s teachings nonradically, while those who are baalei teshuva or just learn sichos without the background are much more likely to interpret the Rebbe’s teaching in a new fashion that seemingly contradicts basic tenets of yiddishkeit. But I don’t have definite proof to this.July 10, 2019 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1756519
I would like to speak up as someone who was once a Lu and became a Breslover. I was a Talmid of Rav Elozor Kenig zt”l and I am currently following his brother Rav Efraim Kenig. There father ( Rav Gedaliah Kenig) wrote a Sefer on this topic of hiskashrus to Tzaddikim called “Chayei Nefesh”. It is kedai to read because all of these issues are addressed. I want to put out three ideas as food for thought. 1) The relationship between the Tzaddik and Klal Yisroel is symbiotic. The Tzaddik needs the Klal just as much as they need him. 2) The Tzaddik does not have a will of his own. He is entirely nullified to his creator. That being said one still needs to beseech Hashem for what ever they need thus when one asks the Tzaddik to daven for him he must also daven and his prayer with the Tzaddik’s prayer being that they connect to each other becomes Tefillas rabim which Hashem accepts. 3) The Tzaddik does not work for anyone but Hashem. He works with us. These is true of all Tzaddikim before their histalkus and after. These nekudos are explained in Lubavitcher seforim. However, Rav Gedaliah Kenig took the time to explain them at more length than I did and more systematically than in the Lubavitcher sources.July 11, 2019 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1756677
@gershig32 the most known source for this in lubavitch seforim is the mammor of v’ata titzaveh where the lubavitcher rebbe explains why the Jews brought the oil to Moshe and not to Aharon even though aharon was the one who lit the menorah
in short the Jews lift up Moshe through the oil they bring him and with this Moshe lifts up the Jews so they end up helping each other and this applies to the “moshe” in every generation including mordechai hatzadik in his time and in this time it’s your rebbe or godal that you listen to and follow
Similarly there’s the story of the Baal shem tov he used to daven for a long time while his chassidim would finish and wait for him one time he took a really long time davening so they went out to go eat something and when they came back they were surprised that he was finished and waiting for them so he told them the moshel of the hunter who finds a rare bird in a tree and he stands on the shoulders of a few people to reach it and if those people decide to walk away then he’ll fall down…
In general there’s a concept these days that we’re the lowest generation but we’ll bring Moshiach because we’re on the shoulders of all the previous generations so in a way we’re higher (avraham fried song (on giants shoulders)July 11, 2019 7:56 am at 7:56 am #1756771
I first encountered Chabad back in the early ’70s as a college student. They were instrumental in my evolution as a ba’al teshuva, and for that I will be forever grateful. However, once they saw I was committed to shmiras mitzvos, they put increasing pressure on me to become not just a frum Jew, but a Lubavitcher. The last straw was when they told me, “the Rebbe wants you to put on tefillen.” I didn’t know much, but I knew that directive was from someone much more important than the Rebbe. Had I not become close with a Yekkishe family, I’m not sure I would have stayed the course.
I had a number of Lubavitchers as work colleagues in the following years. One claim I heard repeatedly from them and from online forums was that the Rebbe is/was infallible. Whenever he misquoted a possuk, it was for an important purpose. A corollary is that the Rebbe is omniscient, for how else could he avoid error? A third claim I heard less often was that the Rebbe is/was omnipotent. Infallible, all-knowing, all-powerful: one need only connect the dots.
Are these opinions normative in all Chassidus? The Satmar Rov (as he preferred to refer to himself) once left out the brocha over the second kos at a seder. He immediately said, “I didn’t do that on purpose! I made a mistake! Don’t think that’s my shita!”
It is the duty of every Torah Jew to counter such dangerous confusion between a tzaddik and HaShem. We must do so with utter respect and a complete absence of hatred. We must also give allowance for occasional heated reactions, given the seriousness of the issues involved.July 11, 2019 8:39 am at 8:39 am #1756811
criticism does not equal hate. Chabad is factually different as are neturai karta, satmar, masorati, hareidi and modern orthodox Jews. different people have different judgments as to how far each has moved from traditional Judaism.July 11, 2019 9:46 am at 9:46 am #1756834
Preferably quote a chapter page etc.. not an entire book.July 11, 2019 9:49 am at 9:49 am #1756832
This is all very interesting. It may or may not be controversial subject matter: Do some still believe that Tzadikim have power to run Hashem’s world (as his medium)? Kindly provide sources (seforim)to prove what seems to me in the kindest of terms, a radical departure from the rambam.July 11, 2019 11:43 am at 11:43 am #1756926
@gershig32, if you need a tzaddik to accomplish things, how would you know that a particular rebbe is a tzaddik? Throughout history, we have had great leaders who turned out to be rashaim.July 11, 2019 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #1756833
@LABoy – there was a Roman general who pressed Avrohom Fried by at least a few years: pygmaeii gigantem humeris impositi plusquam ipsi gigantes vident.July 11, 2019 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1757316
Regarding The Chozeh of Lublin, R’ Uri of Strelisk (aka The Seraph) said, “The city of Lublin is Eretz Yisroel, the chatzer of the beis medrash is Yerushalayim, the beis medrash is Har Habayis, his living quarters are the Ulam, the Azarah, and the Heichal, and the Rebbe’s room is the Kodesh HaKodashim and the Shechina speaks from within his throat.
נפלאות הרבי ע’87 אות ר”ץJuly 11, 2019 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1757425
5ish I am following your thread and I don’t follow the relevance of your most recent postJuly 11, 2019 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1757429
Grey: Actually it is an excellent, smart and brilliantly devious post. One of the main tainos against chabad is the Rebbe’s interesting interpretations of 770 as the bais hamikdash and he said in a sicha that when a rebbe speaks its “shechina medaberes metoch grono”. 5ish assumes he preempted all taanois against the rebbe in this regard with this quote, as the chozeh is accepted by all of klal yisroel.
However, careful readers of my comments will note that I only criticize the chasidim – not the rebbe. And many chasidim take all these quotes to believe that the rebbe is moshiach or even a godlike figure – which they dont believe in regards to the chozeh. And furthermore, nowhere in that quote does it justify omnipotence and omniscience.
Also, if I was being an anti-rebbe litvak i would point out that the quote doesn’t defend atzmus umahus meluvash beguf. (Though Keravelt justified it earlier.)
Keravelt, once we’re defending sichos, how do you understand the sukkah sicha (not attacking just curious)?July 12, 2019 9:07 am at 9:07 am #1757469
yeshivishrockstar2: How can you not blame the Rebbe for this? The chassidim are relying on what they heard from their Rebbe. This is all on him.July 12, 2019 9:09 am at 9:09 am #1757468
@grass. If we are going to ask that question do we have to take the entire mesora into question. We could have asked that about anyone.July 12, 2019 9:16 am at 9:16 am #1757466
@grass. The point was that the Tzaddik needs us as well as we need him. He can not do his job without us and we can not without him. It is one part of Klal Yisroel attached to the other which the mekubalim refer to as Chelkei haShekhinah. This being held in mind means that he is not an intermediary and if if he could accomplish on his own he is still required to attach himself to the Klal and we are not exempt from davening on our own for whatever. If I view myself as exempt from davening I have made the Tzaddik an intermediary which is assur. כשם שנפרעים מעע״ז נפרעים מאלהיהם.
I would say to check out the Sefer Chayei Nefesh. Rav Kenig’s father discusses it more at length than I can on one foot with sources in Tanach, midrashim, shas, Rishonim, Acharonim and mekubalim with great clarity. You will find many satisfactory answers.July 12, 2019 10:28 am at 10:28 am #1757514
“brilliantly devious post. One of the main tainos against chabad is the Rebbe’s interesting interpretations of 770 as the bais hamikdash and he said in a sicha that when a rebbe speaks its “shechina medaberes metoch grono”. 5ish assumes he preempted all taanois against the rebbe in this regard with this quote, as the chozeh is accepted by all of klal yisroel.
However, careful readers of my comments will note that I only criticize the chasidim – not the rebbe. And many chasidim take all these quotes to believe that the rebbe is moshiach or even a godlike figure – which they dont believe in regards to the chozeh. And furthermore, nowhere in that quote does it justify omnipotence and omniscience.”
My intention was not to be devious and I was not responding to the comments you mention. I was just posting an interesting source about the maaleh of a Rebbe from a non-Chabad source, since one of the vague taanos people make about Chabad is that we make such a big deal about the Rebbe.
Broadly the inyan of mikdash meat, makom hasharas hashecina b’bais harav, and ispashtusa d’moshe is of course applical to many tzaddikim and many places of Torah study. I don’t dispute that all of those maalos apply to the Chozeh and for his followers that is how things were revealed.July 12, 2019 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1757612
Do you also blame the RaMBa”M for the fact that many sefaradim of his time learned his Moreh Nevuchim and took it to mean that the RaMBa”M CH”V held that certain mitzvos, like mitzvas tefilin, were only allegorical and not to be taken literally and put into practice?
Or could it be that it is that those unfortunate individuals are at fault for not coming to the proper understanding of the text?July 14, 2019 12:48 am at 12:48 am #1757585
I think @grass raised a crucial point. we know it is possible for great people to go off both morally and intellectually. some prime examples that come to mind presently are: yochanan cohen gadol, Acher and korach. that is why chazal say” al tamin beatzmecha ad yom mosecha”. so let us raise the following question if great people can conceivably go off, what would have to happen for us to say yes this particular rabbi or gadol, he was great but he went off. Or maybe he became somewhat krum. he went in the way of Acher? I have an answer to this question but i will wait on it.
EditedJuly 14, 2019 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1757648
I think @grass made a very thoughtful and relevant point. The Chovos halevovos says the yetzer hara first objective is to attack the yesodos. He is really powerful. “ He is made of fire and we are flesh and blood”. We know it is possible for anyone, even great people to go awry. That is why chazal say “al tamin batzmecha at yom mosecha”. Rav Yochanan Cohen gadol became a tziduki. Acher went off. Eisav be Yitzchak went off. Chazal say Yosef almost did a terrible sin until he saw his fathers image. So clearly there is a danger that everyone can go off. Look at the damage shabsei Tzvi did. How do we know if someone great actually goes off? What would have to happen for us to say Rabbi X used to be good but now he’s krum?July 14, 2019 7:15 am at 7:15 am #1757693
Grey matter asked an important question, but the answer, I believe, is quite simple.
We are instructed to have emunas chachomim, and that means to believe in those who seem to be chachomim/tzaddikim until we know otherwise. Yes, sometimes we make mistakes, and sometimes (rarely) someone who was a chochom/tzaddik can go off, but until we KNOW that we have to deal with the chazokoh that he hasn’t. If that wasn’t the case we would have total anarchy with everybody doing “hayoshor b’einov”.July 14, 2019 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1757743
Rso I fully agree with all that but in the very unusual event that the chazacka changed how would we know?
How would know otherwiseJuly 14, 2019 7:51 am at 7:51 am #1757692
One point that no one seems to have brought up is that if tzaddikim, and in particular the lubavicher rebbe, runs the world, why is it that mashiach has not come?
The fact is that a while before he had his first stroke he said that he had done everything in his power to bring mashiach, and that now it was up to the chassidim. If he “ran the world” then literally EVERYTHING would have been in his power and mashiach would have been here. But I believe that unfortunately he isn’t, even according to all lubavichers.
Also I notice that hml has not replied to my asking for a source that says that “it is incumbent of (sic) every generation to search for Moshiach of their time. Ze hu.”
It’s not as important as my first point above, but it is important to me to know whether we are once again dealing with a lubavicher who can’t admit that he is wrong.July 14, 2019 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1757934
I am adding my voice in requesting an answer to Greymatter’s question. Of course we rely on a Chezkes Kashrus, and by a Talmid Chochom it is even more then that, we can be certain of his kashrus. But,all of this applies until “we know”. So, what would it be like to know such a thing? What would need to happen?July 14, 2019 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1757885
The best answer I have to the “how would we know if rabbi went off” question, is that if other established gedolim said that a rabbi went off, we would draw the line there. Does anyone have any different answers? To me it is extremely clear that if Rabbi shneerson said “I am mashiach”. Gedolim would be unified in saying he went off. I am not saying he said he is mashiach.(I would prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt)but if he did according to my definition he isn’t a gadol. Does anybody have other definitions of how we would know if someone went off?July 14, 2019 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #1757994
Just want to make sure that you’re aware, that by your definition we (am yisroel) wouldn’t have been zoche to the works of: The RaMBaM, the Baal Shem Tov, the Magid of Mezritch, Rebbe Nachman, the Alter Rebbe, the RaMChaL, v’chu v’chu, all of whom were opposed and called “off” by the “gedolim” of their day.
Also as someone who has learned the Torah of the Rebbe extensively, I can confidently say that I’ve never come across a statement like “I am moshiach” CH”V. Could I see how someone, with a krume daas, could come in and twist the words of the Rebbe to make it seem like he was saying that, yes. I am sure someone with bad intentions could twist any Torah R”L and make it fit their desires, as Shabsi Tzvi did with the heilige Zohar.
If you would kindly take the time to read the posts above, you would see that the statement “tzadikim run the world” does not mean what you’re saying it means. “Tzadikim running the world” simply means that through their influence of the Jewish people they, in turn, influence how Hashem chooses to relate to the world and which hashpaos Hashem chooses to give the world. That in no way implies that they can simply “make Moshiach come” without the participation of the Jewish people. Please review what people are positing the statement means above before starting a conversation that will simply turn itself around in circles over and over.July 15, 2019 12:13 am at 12:13 am #1758084
Keraveltheint you seem like a reasonable person. I am genuinely surprised that you seem offended by what I wrote. I never accused The Lubavitcher rebbe of saying he is mashiach. I said I will assume he didn’t say so. In wich case I never said that there is anything illegitimate about the rebbe or else that he want a gadol. All I said was that if he said he is mashiach than he would be automatically disqualified. This should not be objectional to you as you don’t believe he said he is mashiach. Great!
Regarding what you wrote about controversial gedolim, none of the holy people you mentioned where rejected by all gedolim or virtually all gedolim. So my way of defining how to know if a gadol goes off doesn’t apply. If you disagree with my answer that’s fine. But I think it is a very relevant question. Since we established the yetzer hara can get anyone at any stage in life how do you think we would know if someone went off? What is your answer? (once again I think this is a extremely rare occurrence and they certainly have a strong chazaka. but this is a very important question to answer.)
In terms of your most recent post with this whole rebbe influence thing,that you replied to rso. It sounds very reasonable and like you may be referring to how rebbes interact with people through their (the rebbes) mitzvos. but I think you might mean after they die wich sounds strange again. Am I correct?
If you do mean when they’re alive and like I just explained than for once I have no objection with with your rebbes influence understanding.July 15, 2019 2:56 am at 2:56 am #1758109
“Just want to make sure that you’re aware, that by your definition we (am yisroel) wouldn’t have been zoche to the works of: The RaMBaM…RaMChaL”
GM’s criteria is spot on. There may have been controversy regarding the Rambam and the Ramchal initially, however:
1) Even at the time of the controversy it was certainly not a majority consensus against
2) B’Mehalech ha-doros both the Rambam and Ramchal where embraced by all Gedolim and many their works have come to be regarded as essential and are universally studied ad hayom. (The study of certain works are obviously reserved for those who have mastered the necessary prerequisites as the mehabrim themselves clearly state.)July 15, 2019 6:47 am at 6:47 am #1758122
keraveltheint to me: “If you would kindly take the time to read the posts above, you would see that the statement “tzadikim run the world” does not mean what you’re saying it means. “Tzadikim running the world” simply means that through their influence of the Jewish people they, in turn, influence how Hashem chooses to relate to the world and which hashpaos Hashem chooses to give the world. ”
True, no lubavicher here actually said it about his rebbe, but you did quote the following from the Toldos Aharon Rebbe, and you were using it to support the belief in the lubavicher rebbe:
“The Rebbe Shlit”a explained, That he would hear often from him (HaRebbe of Dzhikov), that for tzadikim the strength is given from Shomayim to run the world how they desire it to be run, they hold the world in their hands…”
That certainly seems to me to mean that if the tzaddik wants Mashiach to come there is nothing to stop him.
Another thing I’d like clarified: can the concept that a dead tzadik is more “powerful” than a live tzadik be found in sources other than lubavich?July 15, 2019 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1758208
Grey Matter, what do you mean by “if”. The Rebbe all but explicitly said that he was Moshiach. Anyway, the concept of emunas chachomim relies on redundancy. Even if one rabbi is secretly off, most of the rabbis won’t be off. Basing your religion on the word or deed of one person is very dangerous.July 15, 2019 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1758361
I don’t know what the rebbe said. It doesn’t have a significant impact on my life as a non-chosid in 2019. It seems like what you said about not relying on one person as a bases for religion, is identical to what I said. The answer to how we would know if a great person went off.July 15, 2019 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1758389
Kareveltheint has studied the rebbe’s teachings and says he doesn’t say he was mashiach. I will assume he’s right. I am pro giving the benefit of the doubt. Especially by talmidi chachamim and when I don’t know the facts.July 15, 2019 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1758397
@rso. The source you are looking for that Tzaddikim are more present in the world (“more powerful”) after their death is found in Zohar. Let me get back to you on exactly where.July 15, 2019 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1758407
Grey matter: Your solution assumes that other rabbis will figure it out. Who said they will?July 15, 2019 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1758474
It’s known in lubavitch that the lubavitcher rebbe can’t be Moshiach because Moshiach will be someone that’s accepted by all Jews and since on the one hand there are those who if in the end it turns out that the lubavitcher rebbe actually ends up being Moshiach they wouldn’t accept him and would rather that moshiach not come instead and on the other hand lubavitchers will accept anyone that ends up being Moshiach as long as he comes already so in the end the lubavitcher rebbe can’t be MoshiachJuly 15, 2019 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1758563
Isn’t the tayna you bring above more a tayna against all chassidim of all kreyzen? Given that all chassidim base their Judaism on the word of “one person” as you say? How is Chabad different in this than Breslev or any other chassidishe kreyz?
Also technically speaking, in Chabad we base our shitos in Judaism on the beliefs of 9 people, given the Baal Shem Tov, the Magid, and all the Rabbeim.July 15, 2019 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1758562
The source you’re looking for is Zohar Chelek 3 Daf ayin alef, amud beis.
“Tzadikim are found more in all worlds after their passing, as during their life they are only found in one world, whereas after their passing they are found in all the worlds.”
And further toward the end of the daf:
“Tzadikim in their life defend the world, and even more so after their passing”
“Without the prayers of Tzadikim the world wouldn’t be able to stand for even one moment.”
My Rebbe taught me that when one knows alef they should teach alef. That would seem to imply that when one doesn’t know beis they shouldn’t be teaching beis. Respectfully, your comments above are like someone who doesn’t know alef trying to say they know tuf.July 15, 2019 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1758576
@ Grass my solution doesn’t assume anything. Nothing is perfect in this world but it is a very good metric. It is much better than for example, assuming you and I will “figure it out”.
Keraveltheint no I disagree. My creteria says if all or virtually all gedolim say the the rebbe of X went off. Than everyone including and especially his chasidim should abandon him. This would be very different than if they said he is a leader Torah authority and qualified to pasken, but I disagree on this particular issue. Same by a posek, if leaders say a certain posek is qualified to pasken aguna questions, but learned wrong pshat in this case, that is very different than saying he is qualified to only teach elementary school Halacha. Once again if you have a different criteria for how to establish if (one again very unusual but possible) a particular gadol goes off I would love to hear it.July 15, 2019 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1758578
Actually in 5752 the rebbe told leibel groner upon hearing that people are saying that he is moshiach that hashem will reveal to moshiach that he is moshiach and I have not gotten such a revelation
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