June 21, 2023 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #2202076
its so funny how some people just cought up by one line i mentioned and go crazy.
the idea of that misnagdim had those complaints, you can read about in sefer hasichos 5702, the debate in minsk, yes chabad sources, btw just find me letters etc from the above sources you wanted who write against chassidim at all maybe if you find letters from the time of the baal shem tov, you’ll find these reasons too. what do you claim the hisnagdus was all about?
anyway that was such a side point. but as i see, misnagdim just catch onto anything to harras chabad simple. (btw its basi ligani 5723 not 5729, typo)June 21, 2023 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #2202099
Again, i asked you to quote the source itself, not the mareh makom, because 6 times you’ve quoted things that don’t exist or which are wrenched out of context.
But alas, I’m weak. I gave in and looked at Hebrewbooks for sefer hasichos from 5702…. And it’s not there.. There’s 5680’s, and there’s 5703, 05, 08, but none from 02. And it’s from the rayatz so it would be admissible into this conversation. A statement from the last Lubavitcher rebbe claiming a historic fact would do little to justify chabad; it’s like saying we’re right because our rebbe says so. Did you get the year wrong?
Who was the Rayatz supposedly debating? A random am haaretz who happened to be a litvak who maybe said some nonsense?
Again, i asked for sources at the time of hisgalus toras habesht, which accuse the Gaon and tzlach(do you know who the tzlach was?) Of being stagnant and not feeling a need to do teshuva.
If you want to know what the misnagdim had a problem with, learn nefesh hachaim; it’s kind of like the litvishe tanya in many ways.
The main problems were:
The Gaon held that the besht’s pshat in tzimtzum was apikorsus. I know very little and tzintzumim, so I will not attempt to delve into what that machlokes was, but it’s in the kol koreh signed by the Gaon and other misnagdim putting the rebbes in cherem..
Davening late, and a few other issues such pertained to halacha.
doing things which looked strange, which may not have had halachik issues
A major issue was the replacement or addition to the talmid chochom as the only leadership position of klal yisroel, with someone whose chief activities and notoriety was in the area of avodah and tzidkus. While integral to yiddishkeit, the idea of a leader being defined as a leader by anything else besides torah was objectionable.
The emphasis on lishma and the possibility of neglecting learning because it’s not lishma.
The idea of dveikus in Hashem while learning; I’m not sure if historically any of the rebbes stressed thinking about Hashem while learning… The tanya speaks about how Torah is the biggest dveikus, but it happens by itself, “even though he doesn’t see it.” It could be that the misnagdim heard the simple folk say things like that and thought that the rebbes must have said so – this is my personal contention, but i don’t know for sure.
This is the basic outline of the machlokes. Nothing to do with chasidim being objectively superior and giving mussar to the gedolim about how they have to keep shteiging and not be complacent.June 21, 2023 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #2202100
And what letters, written by whom, from the time of the besht say this?
Maybe they were saying that general lomdim had gaavah issues; that I’ve seen before, but to slander the gedolei olam? NeverJune 22, 2023 10:48 am at 10:48 am #2202145Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
> poskim are clear that one who only has a short amount of time to learn should learn halacha
I learned from a Lakewood Rav that dividing time in 3 parts – Torah/Mishna/Gemora – means that all 3 need to be finished at the same time, that is one needs more time spent on Gemora, and he meant all 3 areas in a general sense, that is Tanach/Halacha/Ability to reason, not daf yomi. I saw this in writing also, but can’t recall the source right now.June 22, 2023 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2202442
Being meshalesh has not been done by klal yisroel in millennia. We follow tosfos on that gemara which says that gemara bavli has all three, and we focus on it.June 22, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2202468
you can see it on otzar hachachma in the sefer ביקור שיקאגו which is the sichos the frierdike rebbe said in chicago in 5702 page 21
you can find ספר השיחות תשב there also but youll need to buy a subscription to see past the first 100 pages i don’t know why Hebrew books doesn’t have it.
(btw now you can attack me for writing 100 and not 150)
anyways i dont even know what were arguing about anymore. i just brought this up to point out – like even you just wrote – that the misnagdim were against the idea of “A major issue was the replacement or addition to the talmid chochom as the only leadership position of klal yisroel, with someone whose chief activities and notoriety was in the area of avodah and tzidkus. While integral to yiddishkeit, the idea of a leader being defined as a leader by anything else besides torah was objectionable.”
i was pointing out that today this is what we do in chabad, we have out talmid chachom – the rebbe – (anyone honest who looked into the rebbe knows he was a גאון עולם) and we give him major respect.June 22, 2023 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #2202541Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Avira, your “we follow” reflects someone you follow, why you are talking for others? In this case, it is not even a moderni opinion, but straight from Lakewood.June 22, 2023 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #2202556GadolHadofiParticipant
Do you consider it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach? Please answer “yes” or “no”.June 23, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #2202663
@sechel83 Do you believe that your Rebbe, the late and last Rebbe of Lubavitch Rav Menachem Mendel Schneerson ZT”L is the one and only Moshiach ben Dovid, yes or no? And how prevalent is that belief among Chabad?June 25, 2023 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #2202988
lets say i would say yes, would i be a kofer or apikores or both? please explain why?
i believe the rebbe had the neshama of yechida haklolis and was the moshiach of the generation, now he can still be, but i believe there is someone alive today who can be moshiach. i beleive this is the comen belief in chabad meshichist which i have no clue how big this group isJune 25, 2023 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #2203005GadolHadofiParticipant
IMHO, you would be neither. So you actually believe that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l can be Mashiach? Please answer “yes” or “no”. If this is the common belief by Chabad meshichists, then why all the effort to justify how the last Rebbe, zt”l will be Mashiach?June 25, 2023 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #2203025
@sechel83 The overwhelming consensus of non-Chabad Talmidei Chachamim is that the belief that Rav Schneerson ZT”L will be the Moshiach is at best tipshus and many are adamant that it’s outright k’fira. This is the prevailing opinion of frum Jews everywhere, except Chabad. I don’t know if you realize that.
Now to clarify, believing he is Moshiach, also includes a lot of other people. Like those who say “not sure”, give evasive answers, the enablers who claim not to believe but run institutions where people put up massive Yechi banners, and those who say “well, he could have been…”.June 25, 2023 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #2203028
@sechel83 Also, I don’t know what you think “the neshama of yechida haklolis” means, but I can guarantee you that you (and others from Chabad) have a very different interpretation of it than Chassidim and other frum Jews.
I mean, like I said before. You do you. However, you should be aware as to how strange and abnormal many of your beliefs and practices are to frum Yidden who are not part of Chabad. And again, there are beliefs that are acceptable in Chabad circles that most frum (even Chassidish) places would throw the individual out on their head for expressing.June 28, 2023 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #2203894
so i would assume most non chabadniks never learned too much about yechida haklalis and what it has to do with moshiach, rebbe, chassidus. you can learn about it in קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות. there you can also learn about what chassidus is.
another point people should realize is that when they see a chabadnik with a yechi yalmuka, and ask him if the rebbe is alive, well its a big chance he will say yes…… – his point is just go fly a kiteJune 28, 2023 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #2203917
@sechel83 You are correct. Non Chabadniks do not hold of Chabad seforim in the same esteem that Chabad does. The concepts you mention, like “yechida haklalis”, may originate from something legitimate, like Tzemach Tzedek or Tanya, but it’s a single opinion out of many many other Chassidish, misnagdish, and Sefardish opinions. Futhermore, non-Chabadskers do not have the same interpretation that Chabad has of these concepts, especially considering the influential Messianics who have “interpreted” the late Lubavitcher Rebbe’s letters to explain these concepts in a way that makes their way of life seem in accordance with the Torah.June 28, 2023 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #2203930LostsparkParticipant
Has everyone aired their grievances with ChaBaD enough to move on, or these the dead horse need an another beating?
I’m sorry for anyone here that didn’t get their fair share of juice in a lubavitch day camp, it’s time to get over it.June 29, 2023 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #2204007
Chabad is the closest to what the Besht originally taught. IMO, that’s why it’s so controversial. The teachings of the Besht were extremely controversial, and chassidus was only accepted over time because it moved away from most of those teachings. Since Chabad is closer than other chassidic sects, it’s viewed as more problematic.
Yserbius, you label the Tzemach Tzedek and the Tanya as “legitimate”. Why? Many of the teachings within those have no mesorah behind them, and incorporate teachings of the Besht that were radical departures from traditional Judaism.
I once wanted to see if I could at least gain an understanding of Chassidus, so I found a chavrusah, a chassidish man, to learn Tanya with. I had a number of questions on it, and didn’t hesitate to ask them. After a few weeks, he told me he didn’t feel comfortable learning with me, as I was causing him to start doubting chassidus as well.
It only reinforced my belief that if someone who learns only chassidus would actually dig deep into the traditional sources (Rishonim, early acharonim, etc.), they’d realize that there are plenty of conflicts between the two.June 29, 2023 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #2204044
@Lostspark Can’t speak for everyone, but I will stop when it stops being fun or starts being mean.June 29, 2023 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #2204126
Da, most of the tanya is based on kisvei arizal, firstly.
Secondly, the same can be said of learning rav chaim with a bochur, who expresses doubt after someone asks him some good kashya
Some chasidishe people aren’t used to vigorous kashas. learn xhasidus with someone qualified, not just anyone with a long jacket. a serious lomed Torah doesn’t doubt their mesorah because of kashos.June 29, 2023 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #2204135
Avira, I asked in a different topic and didn’t get a response… what Mesorah? The Mesorah of chassidus started with the Besht. He had no Mesorah for his teachings. He didn’t get it from his father or a Rebbe. So it’s only a few hundred years old. That’s not a Mesorah.June 29, 2023 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #2204136
@DaMoshe I believe that the taynos against the Besht and Chassidus in general no longer apply today, consider the vast number of misnagdish Rabbonim and Talmidei Chachomim who respect Torah that comes from Chassidus. I don’t believe anyone in the coffee room is even remotely in a position to say anything against sifrei kodesh like Sefas Emes, Yismach Moshe, Shem MiShmuel, or Tanya .June 29, 2023 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #2204149
Yserbius: As I said, Chassidus is more accepted today because they moved away from the teachings of the Besht, and back towards traditional Judaism. Rabbonim writing seforim on the Torah is more in line with traditional Judaism than the teachings of the Besht.June 29, 2023 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #2204168
Da, do you similarly not believe in the Arizals kabalah, because it was largely revelation based?
Litvishe have a mesorah from the Gaon, which was at the same time as the baal shem tov. Talmidei habaal shem said that their ways were really old, and the truth is that many chasidishe ideas can be found in other places, such as rabbeinu yonah.
You haven’t addressed my issue with your jumping to conclusions about chadidus because an individual man, not a rosh yeshiva or rov, couldn’t answer your kashos.
I had kashos on tanya and other seforim; did you even bother trying to answer them yourself, or did you come into the seder with preconceived notions against the seforim? You should treat a chasidishe sefer with the same seriousness as nefesh hachaim; I’ve asked kashos on that sefer too, and nobody shies away from answering them.
There are virtually no gedolei yisroel today who agree with your idea that the baal shem tov was simply mistaken or that people shouldn’t follow him. Later chasidusen didn’t move away from chasidus, they simply taught their generations. There was a time for a certain avodah, and there was a time for kotzk. There’s also a time for today’s chasidus.
Chasidus is about taking kabalah and using its ideas for avodas Hashem, in not a very different way than baalei mussar taking maamarei chazal and medrashim for the same purpose. One chasidishe gadol said that rav yisroel salanter does for the litvishe what I do for you. One of the gerrer rebbes told his chasidim that rav hirsch does for the yekkishe what i do for you.
Classic Chabad and, to a lesser extent, Breslov, use more kabalistic ideas than other groups; that’s the main difference.
Chasidus produced gedolei olam the likes of the divrei chaim, the rogotchover, rav meir shapiro, the sfas emes(who the brisker rov held was a massive gadol in nigleh too), the avnei nezer, the butchacher rov(aizer mikodesh on shu”a), and many, many others who were universally respected.June 29, 2023 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #2204526
who was the gaon? just wondering? i hear people say it often, you mean the rogetzover gaon?June 29, 2023 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2204522
The Arizal never claimed to go up to shamayim and learn with Nevi’im. The claim was that Eliyahu came and learned with him. He was not opposed by the leading Rabbonim of his time, in fact, he was widely accepted.
The mesorah that litvish have from the Gra didn’t originate with him – he learned it from his Rabbeim.
Yes, there are chassidish Rabbonim who were great talmeidi chachomim, but as I said, that’s because chassidus moved away from the teachings of the Besht.
As for my questions on Tanya, I actually asked multiple people, including some Chabad Rabbis. I never got any satisfactory answers.
I don’t think all chassidim are completely wrong in their observance, because again, they don’t follow all the Besht’s teachings. Specifically when it comes to learning Torah, they moved away from the Besht’s views, and towards the Gra’s. I had Rabbeim in yeshiva who were chassidish, who I have tremendous respect for. I’ve met Rebbes who I thought were incredible, and gave me tremendous chizzuk – in fact, one of the main reasons I became a baal tefillah is because of something a Chassidish Rebbe told me!June 29, 2023 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #2204534
@sechel83 The Vilna Gaon is who people refer to when saying “The Gaon”. The Rogotchover I don’t believe is ever referred to by that title, he’s always “The Rogotchover Rebbe”.June 29, 2023 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #2204535
Da, when I’ve talked about chasidishe torah with Lubavitchers, they’re on a different spectrum than others. Their answers and logic doesn’t satisfy me either. Plus, being a “rabbi” in chabad doesn’t mean that much. Anyone mildly successful is pushed into smicha, many getting it online.
Go to a talmid chacham with your kashas; ask someone like rav Efraim wachsman, better yet, post one or two here, and see what you get – I’m very interested to know what kashos are bothering you.
Also, the arizal said that he learned his Torah from heavenly revelations. The Gaon also had tons of revelations; he said he didn’t want them because they didn’t require ameilus. The shu”a also learned from a malaach; same thing with the baal shem learning from Achiah – it means his neshoma came to him and taught him torah. I don’t know why this is so surprising.
All of the talmidei habaal shem were first known to be very big in nigleh, too. It’s true that the baal shem himself did not reveal himself initially as a talmid chacham; I’m sure there were reasons for this, but his talmidim were – we’re not talking about a person who courted simpletons. They respected him and saw what he was in both nistar and nigleh.
Sechel….whenever a non Lubavitcher says something in the name lf “the gaon” it refers to the vilna gaon.June 29, 2023 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #2204537
As for earlier rebbes being big in learning, look no further than tue baal hatanya, who is universally revered for shu”a harav. The kozhnitzer maggid is also someone I’ve heard misnaged-inclined roshei Yeshiva quote as a big talmid chacham.June 30, 2023 12:42 am at 12:42 am #2204552mdd1Participant
Avirah, you are very confused and unaware. What happened in Chabad is what the Gr’a and other Misnagdim were afraid was going to happen. Something is based on the Ari’s Kabbolah is fully-proofed against problems? Let me break it to you: Shabtai Tzvi teachings were based on Zohar. Learning Kabbolah is a very big thing, but also very dangerous.June 30, 2023 9:42 am at 9:42 am #2204578Menachem ShmeiParticipant
>>>The Vilna Gaon is who people refer to when saying “The Gaon”. The Rogotchover I don’t believe is ever referred to by that title, he’s always “The Rogotchover Rebbe”.
In Chabad also “the Gaon” refers to the Vilna Gaon, though he is usually referred to as Vilna Gaon or Gra.
I’ve never heard anyone refer to the Rogatchover as “the Gaon” but neither is he called “rebbe”.
I think he is universally called “the Rogatchover gaon” or הגאון הרוגצ’וביJune 30, 2023 9:43 am at 9:43 am #2204579
Avira, again, there is a difference between revelations coming down to someone, and someone claiming that he ascended to Heaven and was able to explore there, as the Besht did. Nobody else made a claim that spreading their particular teachings would bring Mashiach. And none of the others were widely denounced by the Gedolim of their time.June 30, 2023 11:38 am at 11:38 am #2204633
Da, perhaps I am not aware, but where does it say that thee baal shem went to shomayim? How is learning with Achiah any different than learning with Eliyahu?
As for saying that moshiach will come; many say he was referring to spreading avodas Hashem, and that the baalei mussar accomplish the same thing, which is why around that time, chasidim didn’t attempt as much to gain adherents anymore.
As for having hisnagdus… Many gedolim did too, including the rambam, whose seforim were burned, rav yonasan eybeshutz, etc… Having detractors, even the stature of the Gaon and tzlach, doesn’t mean that you’re wrong.
And it wasn’t all of the gedolei hador of that time, either.July 5, 2023 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #2205951
its funny, if the alter rebbe didm’t write the shulchan aruch, the misnagdim probobly would have said today that he wasn”t a talmid chacham, like some might say about the other chabad rebbe’s. the rogotchover gaon once spoke about the rebbe maharash that he was a great gaon, someone asked him how does he know being that he didn’t speak or print much niglah? the rogetchover answered that he can see from his maamarim chassidus. maybe others should follow his example, look at a maamer of the rebbe or previous chabad rabbaim, although its not a pilpul on a tosfos, but in one sefer maamarim is quoted from all over shas, rishonim, achronim. all medrashim, tons of sifrai kabala etc. thousends of m”m, seems like some are just blind. i dont understand how some can say such stupid things that about the rebbes.July 5, 2023 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #2205990
Sechel, you’re chasing phantoms; almost no one significant is a misnaged nowadays. It’s very rare; i know of about 5 talmidei chachamim, 3 are not famous, who are real misnagdim.
As for knowing if someone is a talmid chacham…the ohr somayach wrote his seminal work on the rambam before writing meshech chochma on Chumash, because, he said, anyone can write on chumash…he wanted first to establish his credentials in chiddushei torah on sugyos.
As an aside, the meshech chochma haa got to be one of if not the most lomdishe of popular chumash seforim, but i digress…
If a rebbe writes chasidus, how can you expect a litvishe person to automatically assume that they are a talmid chacham? They won’t assume he is or he isn’t. There’s no assumption that a chasidishe rebbe is or isn’t a talmid chacham from a litvishe perspective.July 6, 2023 3:01 am at 3:01 am #2206008mdd1Participant
Avirah…, Chazon Ish was a Misnaged. What changed from his times? Your statement that allegedly there are very few Misnagdim today proves nothing. Also, some Rabbis may be – they just do not loudly publicize it.July 6, 2023 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #2206123
Mdd, i was saying that the only group which focuses on so called misnagdim is Lubavitch. They paint any and all criticism of them on litvishe just being misnagdim of yore.
But that’s demonstrably false, because the same rabbonim who bash neo Lubavitch have no problem with Tanya, shu”t tzemach tzedek, or any other strains of chasidus(maybe some divergent neo breslov groups too, but not remotely at the same level… they’re not accused of heresy, rather they’re laughed at for chanting na nach etc..)
The chazon ish was somewhat misnaged, that’s true. So? The last gadol I’ve heard of who was openly misnaged was rav elya weintraub. Currently, do you know of any others?July 6, 2023 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #2206247
@ avira – so? ok the rebbe printed on the parsha, the rebbe is entitled to do different. (btw the rebbe asked his father in law the frierdiker rebbe why he dosent speak ideas in niglah, and he said its not his mission in the world, so apparently the rebbe wanted to do it this way even though he could have printed on rambam and shas and maybe attracted more litvaks (i doubt it, cuz i don’t believe thats the issue misnagdim have). there is a maase the alter rebbe said if he would have taken out certain world of tanya he would have another 100,000 chasidim, but chassidus demands emes.
im just saying that anyone honest to looks into the rebbe’s torah will see. (the rebbe is the only gadol that thousends of hours of his life is on video and audio, and it cant be denied his greatness.
the baba sali wrote to the rebbe the following (you can see it in non chabad sources)
לכבוד קודש הקודשים, עמוד העולם, אור ישראל ותורתו, שלא קם כמותו, שר התורה והוראה, אהוב בשמים ובארץ, מורנו ורבינו הרב מנחם מענדל מליובאוויטש, הנני עבדך הקטן ישראל,
עליתי ממרוקו לארץ ישראל, ואנשים כאן לא נתנוני השב רוחי, באים אלי בכל שעות היום והלילה, ונבצר ממני לעבוד את ה’ כאשר היתה באומנה עימי, ימים ולילות שלא ביטלתי מן התורה רגע אחד.
ועתה נפשי בשאלתי אם אוכל לבוא אליך לארצות הברית לגור על ידך בקרבת מקום, ואסתר מעיני כל איש.
קיבלתי עלי שמה שיורני מורנו הרב אעשה, כיון שהוא עמד העולם, וכך הכריזו עליו בשמים”.
and if there is no misnagdim today, great, that’s what the rebbe said, baruch hashemJuly 6, 2023 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #2206261
There is kimat no point in arguing with habad hasidim .
Kol ba’eha lo yeshuvun .
ANY ARGUMENT HAS TO START WITH SOME COMMON GROUND . whereon the sides can base themselves on .
THERE IS NO THEOLOGICAL COMMON GROUND HERE.
they are an integral part of klal yisrael , our brothers , but any argument is fruitless .
We have to – for our own sake – clarify where they come from , how they evolved , what were the driving factors behind their evolvement ,what they really believe , who and what they really worship , what the possible future developments could be.
We should be mekarev them not any less than any other yid , but still clearly and loudly call out their misguided ideology whenever it is mentioned.
Any argument with them , where they repeat their own circular ‘proofs’ of their shitah ,only serves to harden their beliefs and lends a veneer of legitimacy to their mistaken ideology.July 6, 2023 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #2206262
correction . R weintraub was not a misnaged against chasidsm.July 7, 2023 8:37 am at 8:37 am #2206272
So… Those against the Lubavitch Rebbe are misnagdim.
But the Lubavitcher rebbe said that there are no misnagdim today.
Huh?July 7, 2023 8:48 am at 8:48 am #2206292
Yankel, he was. I’ve heard several comments from him to this effect, mostly about learning specifically.July 7, 2023 8:49 am at 8:49 am #2206294Zaphod BeeblebroxParticipant
If they are an integral part of klal Yisrael, and our brothers, then that would mean that there is in fact a very large theological common ground. If there really is no theological common ground at all, then not only could they not be considered an integral part of klal yisrael, they would not be able to be considered part of klal yisrael at all, and by extension, not our brothers.
Since I assume that you don’t believe the second option, that would mean that there is in fact common ground upon which to argue, rendering your entire post moot by its own premise.July 9, 2023 10:51 am at 10:51 am #2206665
they are an integral part bec they believe in ikarei emuna and are mizera yisrael , but in way of thinking , how to develop an argument , what is considered a valid argument , what is not considered a valid argument,
and MOST IMPORTANTLY whether we can and should be choker after someone who was controversial [meaning some rabbanim disapproved of him ] COUPLED with the fact that part of his yerousha ruchanit was controversial , and should you be choker whether those two thing are connected or not – in that there is no common ground whatsoever .July 9, 2023 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #2206870
He would quote tanya without reservation.
So – Not Mitnaged to hasidut .
Maybe to present Day Habad , – yes .July 10, 2023 9:18 am at 9:18 am #2206994
Yankel, i heard him say that if chasidim learn nistar as superficially as they learn nigleh, then they don’t really know it.
Never heard him quote tanya, but it doesn’t contradict the above, since everyone agreed that the baal hatanya did not learn superficiallyJuly 10, 2023 11:07 am at 11:07 am #2207069
Dear Esteemed Bicephalus President of the Galaxy His Honourable Zaphod Beeblebrox,
I think the “zero common ground” argument is a little like this. There have been several decades of Chabad Rabbis developing a philosophy and movement that the rest of the frum world is extremely opposed to. Chabadskers who follow those Rabbis by definition will ignore any Torah or Hashkafa from the rest of the frum world that doesn’t suit them.
So there’s no common ground, as any argument will be “The Rabbonim say that this is how to interpret the Gemara” with the response being “But my Rabbonim disagree”. It’s the same with Conservative and Open Orthodoxy. If you choose to follow a Rabbi that plays loosey goosey with the words of Chazal and ignores everyone telling him “No”, you can’t even begin a debate.July 19, 2023 10:25 am at 10:25 am #2209553HaLeiViParticipant
Avira says: Who was the Rayatz supposedly debating? A random am haaretz who happened to be a litvak who maybe said some nonsense?
Good point, but this is a fallacy flund all around. There are several stories that the Briskers repeat often aling the same lines, of how one of their Rabbeim responded to a random, perhaps unlearned, Chossid (who spoke in a way that no Chossid worth his money would speak).July 19, 2023 11:35 am at 11:35 am #2209599Menachem ShmeiParticipant
>>>Who was the Rayatz supposedly debating? A random am haaretz who happened to be a litvak who maybe said some nonsense?
Not getting into the whole discussion, but I would just like to clarify:
The debate was not with the Rebbe Rayatz. The Rayatz wrote what he heard from his grandfather (the Rebbe Maharash) about the debate in Minsk between the Alter Rebbe (baal hatanya) and the gedolei hamisnagdim of the city.
You can find an overview of the debate on Chabadpedia (as well as links to the original writing of the Rebbe Rayatz), by googling:
Or, in English, google: “the Debate in Minsk chabadorg”
(Though in the English it may be a bit hard to understand what’s going on)
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