June 6, 2023 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #2196874
To back up my statement before.
Every single group has their bunch that have nothing better to do than to argue you with you why they have exclusive access to the ultimate truth. Most groups splinter and fracture. So, the the-entire-world-should-be-just-like-(my group)-there-is-a-great-answer-for-everything-because-the-(my leader)-was-so-great type direct their energies at the other more than the outside. But the sense of being in the ultimate know is still detectable. Chabad doesn’t have any real splinters or fractures. They have been under one roof with messianics for thirty years! I know that you all like to yell that the Rea Chabad should evict the mishachists. But what would that achieve, besides for your own smug reaction?
Getting back on point, because Chabad is still unified all the stereotypical the-entire-world-should-be-just-like-Chabad-there-is-a-great-answer-for-everything-because-the-Rebbe-was-so-great have only the outsiders to perform for. You have to move beyond that personality type to find a real Chabadnik. Also, Chabad is very appealing to the pettiest types of thinkers for this very reason. This is why I feel that people who can’t make piece with the Chabad problem suffer from this weakness to some extent.June 6, 2023 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #2196924
Menachem – you’re mixing up the books that Wolbe wrote. He received a haskama on yechi hamelech, about moshiach in general – but there’s a part of it that rav moshe et al never would jave signed on to, namely where he discusses god body stuff. He “proves” from the gemara about rebbe hillel, that moshiach won’t come, but rather Hashem will redeem us Himself (acc to rashi) that moshiach is the same as god, so the rebbe is god (I’m not kidding).June 6, 2023 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #2196948
one interesting observation, about the rebbe, people needed to search and search, and finally they came up if something that 1) most of them dont know where its printed 2) most dont even know the words 3) most never even heard those terms (and have no clu what they mean) are because of that they attack the rebbe.
or they attack chabad about moshiach which most know nothing about, or sukh which is a chidush of the rogetchuver not the rebbe, the rebbe just quotes it (check the sicha)
whereas other recital statements quoted by others they are just clear kefira. and apikorsesJune 6, 2023 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #2196964
Does the rogotchover write the “metztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you don’t feel like a certain Rebbe who was uncomfortable over a kabalistic concept”? No, he doesn’t. Because he doesn’t write purim torah. The Lubavitcher rebbe would have to prove to us that the rogotchover said it, merely quoting likutei sichos doesn’t prove anything.June 7, 2023 12:45 am at 12:45 am #2197009
Why are we making more threads for avira to vent out his fustration at life towards lubavitchers by making horrible statements about the rebbe. I can only be DLK’Z that maybe his teffilin or mezuzos are possul and therefore his mind has been taken over by klipa R”L! I wish him Arichus Yamim and Hatzlacha.June 7, 2023 10:18 am at 10:18 am #2197149
>>>The Lubavitcher rebbe would have to prove to us that the rogotchover said it
Happens to be, the Rebbe is extremely careful to source every single quote in Likkutei Sichos. You will never find him quoting anyone without a footnote and source.
One of the wonderful things about על התורה ועל התמורה is that they often show pictures of Sichos but they cut out all the sources, so you shouldn’t chas v’shalom see that most of what they attack is just direct quotes from other places in Torah.
How many people know that the minhag Chabad of not sleeping in the Sukkah or not eating bread for Shalosh Seudos have nothing to do with the seventh Rebbe, and have been part of Chabad minhagim since the baal hatanyah?
The Rebbe’s sichos source all these things from the Frierdiker Rebbe’s seforim, the tzemach tzedek, etc.
Al Hatorah conveniently hides these facts to make it look as if the Rebbe was mechadeshJune 7, 2023 11:04 am at 11:04 am #2197144
Asking “whats the source” is aa hateful statement against the Lubavitcher rebbe?
And why is he “the” rebbe?June 7, 2023 11:05 am at 11:05 am #2197146
>>>you’re mixing up the books that Wolbe wrote. He received a haskama on yechi hamelech
This happens to be irrelevant to the point I’m trying to make, that it’s ridiculous to learn a sefer from it’s attacker.
However, I am not sure you’re right. Unfortunately I don’t have the sefer at my disposal, but according to my research it seems that he did give a haskamah to Yedaber Sholom. Rabbi Wolpo references it in his second volume.
>>>He “proves” from the gemara about rebbe hillel, that moshiach won’t come, but rather Hashem will redeem us Himself
Which page? I went through the entire Yechi Hamelech (also using otzar hachochma search) and couldn’t find it.
This is also surprising, since the Rebbe often brings and supports the Chasam Sofer that anyone who holds like R’ Hillel is כופר בכלל התורה.June 7, 2023 11:07 am at 11:07 am #2197151
Menachem, most jews did not sleep in a sukkah in Europe. The mitteler rebbe had a valid, normal halachik heter not to. The last Lubavitcher rebbe was the one who came up with the mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer business; and no, there’s no reference to look at tzafnas paneach or other seforim from the rogotchover.
Where is the source for that, and where is the source for not washing for shalosh seudos? It just doesn’t exist. He was mechadesh these things
editedJune 7, 2023 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #2197539
tuna is a fish good point. to answer aviras tantrum. so people like him dont even know what the “official” attack on the sicha was, no one had any issue with that part of the sicha, if that would be the attack, he wouldnt able to convince any litvaks besides some amai haaratzim on the internet. im not going to explain the attack on the rebbe, but at least get the attack streight, then learn the sicha, or the other way around.June 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197581
Shalosh seudos was not universal in Eastern Europe. This is not exclusive to Chabad. Same with sleeping in the sukkah. And eating before davening. I’m not saying this to defend Chabad. It’s important to know what the minhagim actually were before I blast everyone for not following my chumros.June 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197585
The Tzadik as G-d’s Body is a kabbalistic idea with a long historical trail. Chabad did not come up with it. And it has been part and parcel to several major controversies. I’m not near qualified to decipher what is legitimate and what is heretical.
You could use some skills on how to deal with Chabad. They can be relentless.
I can’t ascertain how much the truth matters to you. The fact that is indisputable, was that the Rebbe was quite the gaon and knew how to choose his words carefully. If the other great talmedei chachamim of his time couldn’t hold their own against him, I surely cannot win this debate outright.June 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197592lakewhutParticipant
Avirah I’ve heard from a respected litvish rov that the Alter Rebbe told people to learn for shalosh seudos. It’s not a new thing in Chabad to not eat Shalosh Seudos.June 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197593
So i misread something in al hatorah – he quotes that paragraph from Wolbe, but not from yechi hamelech; he just cites Wolbe as rhe author OF yechi hamelech. I did a google search on the words wuoted, and haven’t found it yet – i have no idea who wrote the al hatorah, and who knows? Maybe this paragraph was a forgery..
He doesn’t say where it is.
But this was in the early 90s – more things have come out since then, like shlomo cunin saying that the Lubavitcher rebbe runs the world(on video, it’s easily accessible) and the rise of people openly saying “boreinu” in their yechi liturgy..
Could be that the author (s) of al hatorah saw the god/body ideology common in chabad circles but couldn’t find any other kpen references to it besides the Lubavitcher rebbes sicha where he says you could pray to a tzadik because he’s the essence lf god wrapped in a body.
Or maybs he’s quoting an obscure pamphlet or book that Wolbe wrote – i have no idea, but i wish he would have sourced it.
I’ll admit that it could be a pious forgery.June 7, 2023 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #2197657
Lake – there were litvishe yidden who did the same. There’s a famous joke in yeshivos; what happens if your shtikel torah is upshlugged – are you mekayam shalosh seudos or not?
But this was done by people who either couldn’t stop learning in the middle of the day, or didn’t have enough food. It wasn’t a widespread, community wide practice; it was yechidim. Chabad decided that no one should wash.June 7, 2023 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #2197650
>>>the rise of people openly saying “boreinu” in their yechi liturgy..
Throughout my life of meeting and talking to thousands of fellow lubavitchers, many of whom are quite diverse in their beliefs, I have only met ONE Lubavitcher who espouses this heresy, and he is a know yungerman who is shunned by all.
The very notion that this is a “group of people” that is “on the rise” is a vicious slander.June 7, 2023 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #2197648
>>> most jews did not sleep in a sukkah in Europe. The mitteler rebbe had a valid, normal halachik heter not to.
Again, you obviously only learned the sicha from those who seek to twist the Rebbe’s words, but not the original. This is like arguing about pshat in a Rashi without learning the Gemara!
Lubavitchers are extremely machmir in Sukkah, not even taking a sip of water outside of the Sukkah when it’s pouring rain. Yet, when it came to sleeping in the Sukkah, Chabad was never machmir. This, the Rebbe points out, is very strange.
The Rebbe brings a story (told (and printed) by the Frierdiker Rebbe – Sukkos 5699) that the Mitteler Rebbe (who was appointed by his father – the baal hatanya – to lead the younger chassidim during his own lifetime) admonished the yungeleit for sleeping in the Sukkah “ווי קען מען שלאפן אין מקיפים דבינה”.
The Rebbe then supports this minhag on a halachic basis. The Rebbe is not being mechadesh a new minhag, rather being מיישב a minhag of several generations.
>>> and no, there’s no reference to look at tzafnas paneach or other seforim from the rogotchover.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to, maybe something earlier in the posts?
Anyway, there are two points in the sicha which are based on the Rogotchover, and of course, both are clearly referenced in the footnotes:
Seif daled discusses Tzofnas Paneach on the Rambam הלכות סוכה פ”ו ה”ב.
Footnote 63 discusses Tzofnas Paneach מהד”ת כה, רע”ג.
>>>where is the source for not washing for shalosh seudos? It just doesn’t exist. He was mechadesh these things
You asked a question, yet decided the answer on your own.
The Frierdiker Rebbe mentions several times in his sichos that minhag Chabad (and the minhag of the baal hatanya, mitteler rebbe, tzemach tzedek, etc.) is not to be קובע סעודה for seuda shlishis, rather to eat a small snack.
See סה”ש אדמו”ר מהוריי”צ תש”ב ע’ 29, and more.
Also, Hayom Yom 22 Adar Beis, the Frierdiker Rebbe says:
אאמו”ר כותב באחד ממאמריו: הא דסעודה שלישית היום לא גו’, היינו שאין צריך פת, אבל צריך לטעום איזה דבר
The Rebbe is מיישב (not מחדש) this minhag halachically in Likkutei Sichos. That’s it.
P.S. Sorry for writing so long, but really much more should be written to defend כבוד התורה.
Honestly, the sichos speak for themselves and my explanations are unnecessary, but it seems that no one is interested in looking in the originals despite them being widely available online, so I feel the need to provide the general ענינים.
I encourage everyone to read the truth for themselves in the original seforim before reading them in books whose entire purpose is to be מזייף ומסלף the holy words of tzaddikim.
The amount of nonsense and lies on every page of על התורה ועל התמורה is endless.June 7, 2023 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2197671
Nom, which gedolim “could not hold their owbmn” against him? Did he have chaverim, yoshvei yeshuva who he handled with in learnijg everyday? Or did he just sit with people enraptured by his words and some mashkeh for hours and hours…
In yeshivos, you develop a reputation as an Ari bechaburah with pilpul chaverim…when did he ever do this?
And no, god in a body is not an old concept. Therr are statements in chazal(mentioned abkve) which are ambiguous, but do not say openly “a rebbe is the essence of god wrapped in a body” which oermits you to pray to him.
Lines about the “face” of Hashem open themselves to boundless interpretation. Here, the Lubavitcher rebbe is issuing s psak halacha oermitting one to pray to a rebbe because the rebbe is god.
And that’s why the chazon jsh said he was a kofer, while he had no problem with the zohar and medrashim.June 7, 2023 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2197673
Menachem, he was being “meyashev” why the mitteler could not sleep in a sukkah and why neo chabad doesn’t either. His answer is not brought down anywhere else, it’s the metztayer that you’re not mitztayer stuff, which the mitteler never said. The mitteler made those remarks, but he was not without a normative heter on top of his kabalistic intentions.
This is akin to rav meir shapiros answer as to why rebbes daven late; rebbes say kabalistic reasons, but, says rav Shapiro, they have a valid halachik heter underneath it, namely that s rebbe is oatur from tefilah as he is a toraso umnaso. Same thing here. The mitteler was patur because of the russian cold. He remarked that he couldn’t sleep with the ohr makif there as well, but that on its own is not a halachik heter.
It’s also just a remark. It’s not a teshuva. Chabad makes way too much out of remarks made by gedolim. Sometimes they’re meant kfff the cuff; you need to be a talmid to see this. It’s like when the rashash wrote that a gemara was a kasha on “those who say that there are gulgulim” – he wasn’t doubtful about it, it’s nust shigra dilishna.
Re, shalosh seudos – hayom yom is quoting the Rayatz, but the Rayatz did not write that sefer, as far as i know. Same thijg eith the Lubavitcher rebbe saying things beshem him – you can’t prove the legitimacy of a person by quoting him as a reliable source; מאן לימא לך דבר סמכא הואJune 7, 2023 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2197675
Re, rogotchover – it was claimed that the mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer business was from the rogotchover. It isn’t. The Lubavitcher rebbe is quoting him on other ideas mentioned in this letter.June 7, 2023 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #2197766
Avira: how would you refer/label the rebbe as?June 7, 2023 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #2197777
Tuna, i don’t give much thought to what his status is, because it doesn’t concern me. That’s between him and Hashem. What does concern me are his teachings and his movement, which have veered off of the derech Hatorah in profound ways.June 7, 2023 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #2197804
@Moderator he outwrite disrespects the Lubavitcher Rebbe and gets away with it. if I where to say such things about Reb CHaim ZT’L, i would get booted and probably get my account banned, Is the moderator moderating based on perrsonal bias and not al pi torah or al pi hashkafah.
I think I’ve proven my point, L’chaim.
Is it common for you to make a claim, assume a response, drum up an explanation and then pat yourself on the back for it?June 8, 2023 10:33 am at 10:33 am #2197814mdd1Participant
Nomesorah, a tzaddik being a body for Ha’SHem is not a new concept. It is a Christian concept. The founders of Christianity (who were Jews) misunderstood some Kabbalistic statements. The same happened to the followers of Shabttai Tzvi and Chabad. It is a heresy.
The Mitteler Rebbe admonishing yungerlite for following Halochah because of his take on a Kabbalistic statement? It shows what is wrong with Chabad.June 8, 2023 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #2197920
The majority of the Rebbes were clamoring to speak with him. He was in touch with Gedolim from all parts of the Diaspora. He had some correspondence with Rav Moshe. Unlike some others, Rav Moshe did not have to explain him things. He was Ari Shebechabura by Rav Weinberg in Berlin. The Lakwood Yeshivaliet would go to his farbreingins because they liked his lomdus.
If your position would be that he was a flawed human being, you could get away with that. (Unless the mods don’t want that debate.) If you think he was mistaken or delusional about certain things, very few people can assert the truth, so you’ll win the debate. But to say he wasn’t a gaon when his genius blew away some of his greatest detractors and he has thousands of profound and deep writings, makes you lose all the debates. From your ability to admit the truth, he could easily be alive and sitting right next to you.
I wish you would take this advice, because once you wrap your head around how great he was according to the yeshivishe standards of a gadol you would have a much easier time debating Chabad. When you write everything off, you lose. This is the primary reason that Chabad increased it’s dominance since the Rebbe died.June 8, 2023 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #2197922
The God Embodied concept is not the same as Christianity. It is closer to Islamic Mysticism than Christian Theology. I’m not going to link to Kabbalistic sources that I do not understand. But there wasn’t anything new here. This why some anti Chabdniks call the Tanya kefira.
Shabbsai Tzvi was the first time these ideas were debated openly across the Jewish (And Muslim.) World. But it had been in the open for three hundred fifty years. If you want to ban this kind of Torah, start with the Zohar.June 8, 2023 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #2197924
mdd – the mitteler did not admonish people for sleeping in the sukkah. the way everyone else has the story, his statement of “how can I sleep….” was said regarding himself, to explain his own practice of not sleeping in a sukkah.
And parroting the lubavticher rebbe’s kasha/terutz of “chabad is so strict about achilah so why are they not strict about sleeping” – is just a narrative. I’m not beholden to his shakla vetaryah. I view it differently; to me, chabad were no different than the alfei revavos of yidden who did not sleep in a sukkah in europe, either because of the cold, or because their wives weren’t comfortable(both are mentioned in the Rema as heterim)
So if they want to add kabalistic significance to an established heter – chasidim do that all the time, so be it, but no one besides neo-chabad takes kabalah and uses it to overturn halacha.June 8, 2023 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #2197925DaMosheParticipant
Chassidus as a whole has issues with how they view the Rebbe, or as he’s called in the teachings of the Besht, the Tzaddik. He taught that the tzaddik is born without a yetzer harah, and therefore is empowered to descend into sinful situations in order to elevate others. The Tzaddik is incapable of sin. This is obviously wrong, as it says in Koheles that everyone does wrong at some point.June 8, 2023 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #2197926
The fact is that these three minhagim are not unique to Chabad. they were prickly issues in White Russia from before the days of Chassidus. The fourth one was Tefillen on chol hamoed. It’s funny that nobody here has a problem with that.June 8, 2023 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #2197928
Davening to the Rebbe is a major tenet of the Baal Shem’s teaching. What it meant is a major dispute. That was the Rebbe’s topic. He was defending the notion. Not creating a new one. What he meant is another dispute.June 8, 2023 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2197977
Nom, where else is the baal Shem tov mentioned as teaching to daven to a rebbe r”l? Even the Lubavitcher rebbe admitted he hadn’t seen it in sifrei chasidus, and that it was his own “feeling”
I also don’t know what you’re talking about with lakewood yungeleit. Please provide some non-chabad source for that, as well as his supposed relationship with the seridei aish. If his lomdus is akin to the mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer stuff, then I’ll pass on reading it.
Rav Moshe was.a great baal masbir; ever learn dibros? It’s very clear. Difficult, rigorous, but clear. he’s not the birkas shmuel. Who had a hard time learning with rav moshe?June 8, 2023 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2197979
I also don’t know where you got the idea that islam teaches that god has a body. It doesn’t; this is why the rambam held it was mutar to pretend to be a Muslim, because they believe in the same G-d as we do, essentially. Christians developed the god body thing, they said that god put himself in a body, i.e. yushke r”l.
Muslims say Mohammed was a prophet, and some groups say that Hashem gave over control of parts of creation to him, which is shituf and problematic( i don’t think this was the case in the time of the rambam)June 8, 2023 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2197989
You are obviously misunderstanding something. Such an obviously wrong idea couldn’t have been anyone’s intention.June 8, 2023 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2198004
“The fourth one was Tefillen on chol hamoed. It’s funny that nobody here has a problem with that.”
Doing it, or not doing it? The Shulchan Aruch HaRav paskens that one should wrap them without a bracha, but admits that the regional custom (of Belarus) was to indeed make a bracha. Chabad now clearly does not go like this.
Neither shittah in that machlokes is controversial though, so I don’t know why you would even think anyone would have a problem with that (whichever you’re referring to).June 8, 2023 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2198011
so for all the great gedolim paskening 1) not washing שלש סעודות – just learn shulchan aruch או”ח סימן רצא which brings shitos you dont need to wash, many posking hold you can be yotze with even fruit. see also פס”ד צ”צ. (you can see all the מ”מ in the shulchan aruch harav printed by kehos.)
2) eating before davening ראה שלחן ערוך הרב סימן פ”ט סעיף ה (וש”נ)
3) sukkah – just look in hilchos sukkah (שו”ע הרב סימן תרלט סעיף ח-ט)
basically all these attacks are ignorance
and so is the idea of עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף (which i amagine wasnt the worlds of the rebbe, the rebbe spoke in yiddish, this quote was not edited by the rebbe (not in לקוטי שיחות) but the idea is that בקיצור נמרץ:
the נפש אלקית is חלק אלק ממעל ממש, torah and mitzvos reveal the neshama, by a tzadik who reavels his neshama completly and has nothing left of his nefesh habihamis, all thats left is his נפש אלקית. (this does not mean hes g-d)
this is the most basic concept of chassidus, kabala and judasim. this is the idea of dirah bitachtonim, achdus hasham, moshiach, techiyas hamasim, schar eonesh,
one last point (for now) in chabad they learn chassidus for hours a day, in yeshiva – for 3 hours during seder (7 hours niglah btw) these are very deep concepts and need alot of time to have any understanding (thats why there are hundreds of seforim of sifrai chassidus)
its totally ridicules that someone who never learned any chassidus or learn a drop should come ask kashyos! first learn just one sefer chassidus chabad – and learn it the way you learn gemarah, make sure you understand every word, then start asking questions (you wont have any)June 8, 2023 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #2198032
Those that switched from wearing tefillin on chol hamoed because of the Zohar.June 8, 2023 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #2198042
Sechel, lechatchila the halacha is to wash. It is not a strict chiyuv, which is why if one forgot retzeo he does not bentch again. But there was never a minhag to specifically not wash and do the Mitzvah in a bedieved way.
Sukkah….no. being metztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer ad infinitum is not mentioned anywhere in any shape or form.
Eating before davening was never meant to be a thing that everyone does; it’s for individuals who are sick or weak. But if someone says that they need it to be able to daven…. it’s not the end of the world, and if this were the only thing neo chabad did i wouldn’t care. But even the shu”a harav does not allow the large amounts of food eaten without concern for davening that some people do. I myself have eaten a bite of cake a couple of times when my stomach hurt or i was feeling extremely exhausted.
The original yiddish in the sicha, not translated(in likutei sichos 1st edition, before the Lubavitcher rebbe ordered the line removed due to accusations of kefirah) – the words are “a rebbe is der atzmus elokus vohr ehr hut areingeshtelt in a guf”
This means, one can daven by the kever of a rebbe, because a rebbe is the essencd of god which he has placed inside a body”
It doesn’t mean the nefesh elokis, if that’s what he meant he would have said so, but even then, you can’t daven to the nefesh elokis of a tzadik, you can only daven to Hashem – so are you davening to Hashem or the tzadik? The Lubavitcher rebbe js saying you can daven because you’re davening to Hashem, because god is there, i.e., Rebbe is god.
This is undeniable kefirah.June 8, 2023 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #2198044
Sechel, when Lubavitch says to learn chasidus before asking questions – I’m not asking questions; im allowed to simply disagree.
But for the record, i spent about 5 years learning various chasidishe seforim, including Tanya, which i adore. Actually, tanya probably had the deepest influence on my thinking than the other seforim i learned.June 8, 2023 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #2198047
You wouldn’t find a good history of early chassidus without it.
I’m not one bit Chabad. Go to the oldest lakewooders and ask them. The next generation went to Carlebach. I don’t care if his lomdus was comparable to the Rogotchover or not. It’s not about his batting average. The question is, was he a real Talmid Chochom. And the answer is, yes as much as any other contemporary Rebbe in both niglah and nistar. This doesn’t mean he didn’t say unusual things. He was exciting and charismatic besides for being highly intelligent and well learned.
A bunch of known Rabbonim had to be explained relatively basic ideas by Rav Moshe. They wrote to him on some topic that they thought they knew better than Rav Moshe, but Rav Moshe showed them that they didn’t know it all. The Rebbe wasn’t on Rav Moshe’s level, but he knew what he was talking about. If you think Rav Moshe was a great ball masbir, I doubt you understand Dibros.
You could just go the route of the other poster with Zionism. That because he was Chabad it doesn’t count that he knew how to learn. But then you have to concede that you can never have a normal debate with Chabad.
You seem to think that the problem with these debates is because of Chabad being closed minded do anything that does not put the Rebbe in a perfect light. While that is true, you are being even worse. The only thing that you are bringing to the table is that anti Chabad could be just as closedminded. So end of debate. Chabad wins. Now we all have to suffer, because they will just keep on bringing it up again and again.June 8, 2023 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #2198053
They should first be learning Gemara the way they learn Rishonim.June 8, 2023 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #2198057DaMosheParticipant
sechel, not everyone views learning chassidus as a positive. Also, quoting the Shulchan Aruch haRav to defend Chabad is like painting a target around an arrow. I don’t know of anyone other than Chabadniks that actually uses it to pasken halachos. It was written by a Chabad rebbe, so Chabadniks follow it. Almost nobody else does.
n0mesorah, no, I didn’t misunderstand. The role of the tzaddik is a key element in the original teachings of the Besht.
As for tefillin on Chol Hamoed, it’s not just the Zohar. The Gra also held that one shouldn’t wear tefillin.June 8, 2023 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #2198077
>>>the mitteler did not admonish people for sleeping in the sukkah. the way everyone else has the story, his statement of “how can I sleep….” was said regarding himself, to explain his own practice of not sleeping in a sukkah.
Avira, you are obviously only interested in picking fights. You continue to argue and lie in order to bring out your point, and you refuse to check any sources I gave you to see if you are factually correct.
This is the quote from the Frierdiker Rebbe:
פעם אחד סיפרו לאדמו”ר האמצעי שאברכים ישנים בסוכה, האט ער – אדמו”ר האמצעי – זיי געגעבן דם אמת’ן חלק, ואמר: שלאפן אין מקיף, מילא לערנען אין מקיף הרי זה דחק ונכנס, אבער שלאפן אין מקיף?! עיי”שJune 8, 2023 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #2198082
“Also, quoting the Shulchan Aruch haRav to defend Chabad is like painting a target around an arrow. I don’t know of anyone other than Chabadniks that actually uses it to pasken halachos.”
It’s a respected sefer halachah in all circles. The Mishnah Berurah, Kitzur, and Piskei Teshuvos all use it. I’m not signing on to defend whatever you were arguing against wholesale, but this particular statement was just untrue.June 8, 2023 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #2198083
If you also think Shulchan Aruch Harav and the Mitteler Rebbe are “oker Torah” (ח”ו עפ”ל) then we indeed have absolutely no שפה משותפת (neither do you have with most bnei Torah of this generation or previous ones).June 8, 2023 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #2198092
No tefillin on Chol Hamoed is a tosafos.June 8, 2023 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #2198093
Interesting point: Here is a quote from the Rebbe a few days after he said the sicha about sleeping in the sukkah (Shabbos Bereishis 5730):
איך האב געהערט א גירסא בשמי אז איך האב געזאגט אז מען טאר ניט שלאפן אין סוכה – איז דאס בפירוש ניט אמת, ואדרבה: דער וואס וויל – זאל שלאפן געזונטערהייט, ושכבת וערבה שנתיך, און עס זאל זיך אים חלום’ן גוטע חלומות וכו’, און קיינער זאל אים ניט שטערן. דאס וואס איך האב גערעדט, איז געווען אויף פארענטפערן מנהג רבותינו וכו’, ומנהג חב”ד, אויף ניט שלאפןJune 8, 2023 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #2198096
mr avirah – ya the original before he took it out? can you send me a copy? link a pdf?* or its just one of those things he heard from your classmate in school? anyway as i explained, learn chassidus before critisising anyone. learn tanya perek 2, perek 10, it says there the same concept besides for the davening part which is made up bologna by snags.
its so funny how the misnagdim dont have any מ”מ for what they say, and the lubavitchers (or ones who defend lubavitch) and have black and white מ”מ, but still the misnagdim claim only they learn torah and chabad dosent, they just learn tanya and do mivtzoim.
i guess the litvaks after learning a few sugyos of lumdos, can argue with any agadah, medrash, zohar, shulchan aruch harav, (after all the baal hatanya didn’t leatn reb chayim or reb baruch ber, he was from before matan torah – as i heard from a litvak)June 8, 2023 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #2198105gadol21Participant
only one username at a time per personJune 8, 2023 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #2198109
“No tefillin on Chol Hamoed is a tosafos.”
The idea is in a tosfos in menachos, yes, but they don’t seem to actually be talking l’maaseh.
Anyway, I still don’t get your point. You seem to want this to be a Chabad vs. everyone else issue, but it’s so not. Rov ashkenazim don’t wrap on chol hamoed either nowadays.June 8, 2023 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #2198112
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