@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

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  • #1472675

    Eli Y
    Participant

    Bubbyo: My reply reflects my Bais Yaakov background, there are probably other responses as well.
    As a follow-up: What benefit accrues to the deceased by gaining more merit?

    “he/she, in the world of truth, will delight in this added bit of awareness that resulted from their life..,this will elevate the soul and thus alleviate some of the pain”

    Thanks Bubbyo for your very interesting response.

    The reason I posed this question to the forum is to demonstrate that those on earth can affect the deceased. It is reasonable then to conclude the deceased can affect those on earth and hence, can affect where a person turns a page to a particular igros.

    Your explanation apparently leaves Hashem entirely out of the path between living an deceased. By adding Hashem into the “model”, Kaddish affects the deceased through Hashem. The Kaddish moves Hashem to ease the cleansing of the soul of the deceased.

    Unless someone wants to argue that this is a “one-way street” , the deceased can affect the living through Hashem. Hence, a holy soul (eg., Metatron like?) can influence Hashem to act in the world. This is a reasonable mechanism that can explain the selection of the appropriate igros as well as other actions and “miracles” we observe.

    I spoke to my Chabad Rabbi a bit more about the difference between selecting an igros at random and studying the works of the Rebbe. He remarked that by consulting a volume of letters one will pick out the answer that leads to one’s desires. When “randomly” selecting, one can get an answer they did not want and hence will prevent them from doing that which they desire.

    #1472688

    Eli Y
    Participant

    DY:So from now on, whenever I have a halachic shailah, I will flip to a random page in the Igros Moshe and follow whatever it says.

    RSo: . I would have liked to have answered yes but after reading some of the stuff quoted here in his name I’m no longer sure.

    Adding a bit to “whattosay’s” excellent post, there seems to also be a “my Rebbe is better than your Rebbe” influence in our dialogue that can only prevent proper dialogue and understanding.

    I suggest we continue with the topic of selecting Igros without considering which Rebbe to consult. That is, is it possible for any deceased soul to interact with the world in such a way as to influence a particular living persons actions?

    In my note above this one I argue that it is possible since we probably all agree that we can influence a departed soul through Hashem. Why then can the departed soul not influence us through Hashem?

    #1472743

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY:So from now on, whenever I have a halachic shailah, I will flip to a random page in the Igros Moshe and follow whatever it says…

    Adding a bit to “whattosay’s” excellent post, there seems to also be a “my Rebbe is better than your Rebbe” influence in our dialogue that can only prevent proper dialogue and understanding.

    I suggest we continue with the topic of selecting Igros without considering which Rebbe to consult. That is, is it possible for any deceased soul to interact with the world in such a way as to influence a particular living persons actions?

    You seem to have misunderstood the point of that post (thread). It was not to say how my Rebbe is greater than your Rebbe. It was to illustrate the absolute folly of the idea of “consulting the Igros” by random selection.

    If anyone would actually, literally, suggest consulting the Igros Moshe that way, they would be immediately referred to a psychologist (perhaps a psychiatrist).

    If my rabbi would defend such a course of action, I would immediately look for a new rabbi.

    #1472750

    samthenylic
    Participant

    This argument will NEVER end, neither side is willing to concede. But looking at this realisticly, consulting a “passed on” rabbi’s writings, written at least 25 years ago, “smells” of DORESH EL HAMESIM. I am sorry to be so blunt, but with all the G-dly attributes attributed to the Rebbe, it begins to smell of a new religion CH”V.
    PERHAPS, MAYBE, IT IS TIME TO END THIS THREAD?

    #1472794

    5ish
    Participant

    “3) The Nefish HaChaim states in no uncertain terms that we are forbidden to relate to the world as everything being Elakus (pantheism). To do so would leave no room for the Torah and Mitvos which are premised on our relating to the world as we are designed to experience and understand it.”

    This is one of the things which is a machlokes between The Nefesh Hachaim and the Baal Hatanya. (It is entirely possible that this machlokes has earlier roots but I am not in the know about that, and since we are speaking about Chabad chassidim and their beliefs I feel it is relevant to mention that there is a major machlokes about how tzimtzum works and The Baal Hataya holds one way while the Nefesh Hachaim holds the other way)

    #1472913

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “In my note above this one I argue that it is possible since we probably all agree that we can influence a departed soul through Hashem. Why then can the departed soul not influence us through Hashem? ”

    Eli – I hear and respect your question. I don’t know that I am qualified to answer it completely but there are probably several issues involved. One of them being the ability for any person, any time to determine THE answer based on the page they land on, as well as the statement ,”My Rebbe told me to…” following such a process.
    When Hashem sends us messages, we do our best to interpret them, and pray for clarity to receive the message correctly. I don’t relate the experience as “Hashem told me…” it is more appropriate to say “I believe Hashem is telling me…”. Hashem sends us signs all the time through nature and happenings and signs, they are abundant, and can provide answers to any question. To ask a living Rebbe for advice means having someone in this world who is a lot closer to Hashem interpreting and giving over Hashem’s desire/responses. If I am going to go with “signs” that need to be extrapolated from what lies before me, why not just ask Gd Himself? But if you are thinking that in this way you have “spoken to the Rebbe”, and that the Rebbe then spoke to you, than it is not the case of “a soul that has departed influencing us” as you claim above. It is much worse.

    #1473314

    shmaichel
    Participant

    @chabad Shlucha
    Thank you.
    You answered this thread beautifully and clearly. I’m sure some people who were asking earnestly and wanting answers benefited from your posts.

    As for the others that just want to ask and then criticize will continue to do so no matter what you say.

    #1473326

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    You may have missed it but every single poster who asked earnestly and wanted answers voiced their disappointment at coming out empty handed. Or are you having the chutzpah to claim that not having benefitted from her posts implies we were just wanting to ask and critisize?
    More circles….

    #1473886

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Eli Y

    “The reason I posed this question to the forum is to demonstrate that those on earth can affect the deceased. It is reasonable then to conclude the deceased can affect those on earth and hence, can affect where a person turns a page to a particular igros.”

    This is not reasonable. It is actually 5 steps removed from being reasonable, because:

    1) You are saying that if A can influence B then it follows that B can influence A. This is a false premise. For example you can mold clay, clay cannot mold you.

    2) Even If we where to concede that the deceased can influence matters in this world we would still have to determine that such influence extends to determining the page to which a person turns a page in a book.

    3) Even if we where to concede that such influence does extend to determining the page to which a person turns a page in a book we would still have to determine what is an effective median for affecting such an influence.

    4) Even if we concede that a particular median is effective we would have to determine that it is permissible.

    5) Even if we concede that it is permissible we would still have to determine that it is reliable (see Derech Hashem section 3 chapter 2).

    You also wrote:

    “Your explanation apparently leaves Hashem entirely out of the path between living an deceased. By adding Hashem into the “model”, Kaddish affects the deceased through Hashem. The Kaddish moves Hashem to ease the cleansing of the soul of the deceased. Unless someone wants to argue that this is a “one-way street” , the deceased can affect the living through Hashem. Hence, a holy soul (eg., Metatron like?) can influence Hashem to act in the world.

    How did the answer given leave Hashem “out of the equation”?

    What do you mean by “moving Hashem” and “Influencing” Hashem?

    Metatron is a malach, why do you refer to a malach as a soul?

    “This is a reasonable mechanism that can explain the selection of the appropriate igros as well as other actions and “miracles” we observe.”

    The mere fact that a proposed mechanism “can” explain something does not constitute positive evidence of its existence. The conjuncture that a mechanism exists without any positive evidence is not reasonable.

    #1473923

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ 5ish

    “This is one of the things which is a machlokes between The Nefesh Hachaim and the Baal Hatanya. (It is entirely possible that this machlokes has earlier roots but I am not in the know about that, and since we are speaking about Chabad chassidim and their beliefs I feel it is relevant to mention that there is a major machlokes about how tzimtzum works and The Baal Hataya holds one way while the Nefesh Hachaim holds the other way”

    That’s fine. They certainly do disagree. I think SL or DY already pointed this out. His position on this matter is crystal clear to anyone who cares to read it.

    But let’s not be hasty. Let’s not jump to the conclusion that citing his words as a support was a deliberate misrepresentation. Let’s not assume that it was an error in interpretation. Let’s not attribute it to a failure to even bother reading what he wrote in context.

    There is an alternative explination

    Perhaps Rav Chaim repented his position. Really he agrees with the Ba’al HaTanya and and was mramez it hiddenly in his sefer, you just have to know where to look. This way he will rectify the error of his Rebbe, the GRA, who refused to meet with the Baal HaTanya. Some might even say that the Gaon himself instructed his talmid to do this. This supposition, while not 100% verified is eminently reasonable since everyone knows that the GRA repented his hisnagdus and was seeking a way to be mitakein the situation. Of course Rav Chaim didn’t write any of this openly so that his sefer would gain acceptance in the Litvish world. He knew b’ruach haKodesh that the truth would eventually come out. And loe and behold, Adif Chocham M’Navi! Here on YWN we learn the truth.

    The above dovetails nicely with the messorah from YDS (mentioned in the mashichistim explained thread) regarding the reason the GRA jumped out of the window to avoid meeting the Baal HaTanya. Of course the rest of Beis Brisk also know this messorah they where just hiding it until the right time.

    Freilichen Purim!!

    #1473958

    Toi
    Participant

    @nonpolitical
    That’s ridiculous. Just because chabad has some sort of self-soothing fairytale doesn’t mean it’s credible. You’ll find that theme has appeared regularly throughout this thread.

    #1474007

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Toi, you missed the last two words of his post.

    #1474018

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Toi

    “That’s ridiculous. Just because chabad has some sort of self-soothing fairytale doesn’t mean it’s credible.”

    The fact that you felt a need to respond to my overt badchanus as if it was meant as a credible argument means that next it will be hijacked and actually used by someone as such.

    #1474088

    Toi
    Participant

    Ah, whoops, sorry folks, missed that.

    #1474105

    Toi
    Participant

    @nonpolitical Unfortunately, such spinning has been commonplace on this thread, so while I obviously missed the satirical nature of your post (not my style, actually surprised at myself), I just think it highlights some of the craziness that’s been mistaken here for legitimate arguments.

    #1633370

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Bump @chossid, toi, username. Maybe read whats here so you don’t need to repeat and have us repeat old stuff. New stuff would be interesting.

    #1633401

    Toi
    Participant

    LOL

    #1704558

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Was the OP on this thread ever answered?

    I don’t mean an explanation of why it can’t be answered, I mean actually answered.

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