Chalav Yisrael and Imposing on Others

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  • #1397078

    ftresi
    Participant

    I’ve always wondered what the right approach is.

    Let’s say Reuven is makpid on CY. His good friend, Shimon, is not and uses Chalav Stam. He struggles to make ends meet, and doesn’t like paying 2.5x more for milk and throwing out the spoiled milk a week before the expiration date.

    Reuven eats in Shimon ‘s house pretty often. Is it proper for Shimon to buy CY products for Reuven or for Reuven to not impose on Shimon by having him spend more than he otherwise would, and use Chalav Stam when eating in his house? Is there a concept to keep CY but not make others go out of their way to accommodate you?

    #1397206

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    ftresi: Most people I know who eat CS will buy CY for guests who they know are makpid.

    #1397209

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Where does Shimon live where CY milk costs 2.5X CS milk?

    #1397213

    ftresi: Most people I know who eat CS will buy CY for guests who they know are makpid.

    If he doesn’t mind using your spoon

    #1397216

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Psak to eat Cholov Yisroel only is based on the Psak that non-CY (what is usually called Cholov Stam) is completely forbidden to consume according to the poskim who insist on CY-only.

    Even keilim that are non-CY are assur according to these poskim.

    #1397239

    Where does Shimon live where CY milk costs 2.5X CS milk?

    Near Meno

    #1397240

    The Psak to eat Cholov Yisroel only is based on the Psak that non-CY (what is usually called Cholov Stam) is completely forbidden to consume according to the poskim who insist on CY-only.

    Huh?

    #1397247

    Joseph
    Participant

    Huh?

    Eating Cholov Stam is forbidden. It is Cholov Akum.

    Same with using keilim that were used with Cholov Stam.

    #1397253

    Are you really going to pretend that that’s the only shittah?

    #1397262

    jdb
    Participant

    There are issurim midoraisah in insulting others, and there are kullas for chalav Stam that can be used to avoid this situation.

    There are two factors at play.
    1. In someone else’s home, someone who is shomer shabbos and kashrus, you can generally rely on their standard. I have asked this Shayla many times about different situations such as work friends, family, etc and this is the answer I received. However, if you know for a fact that there are issues, ask your local hallachik authority.

    2. The kashrus of chalav Stam is another issue. If you hold that it is pashut treif, and you are eating hot cooked food with their utensils, ask a Shayla. From what I have seen, the plan is not noheig like this. They hold chalav yisrael as a chumra, not as an ikkar hallacha.

    #1397280

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I guess that’s why any people cook in disposable aluminum pans and serve on plastic plates with plastic utensils.

    #1397279

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Are you really going to pretend that that’s the only shittah?”

    No. But if it’s the shitta held by Reuven in our OP, that’s why Shimon is buying him Cholov Yisroel, davka.

    #1397288

    shuali
    Participant

    “They hold chalav yisrael as a chumra, not as an ikkar hallacha.”

    Nobody, not Rav Moshe ztzvk”l, nor any other posek who permits, under certain specific circumstances, the use of “cholov company (the term Rav Moshe ztzvk”l uses), holds cholov stam is ikar halachah and cholov Yisroel is a chumra. Nobody. The din of cholov Yisroel is brought in the Gemora and is clearly codified in the Shulchan Aruch. And just like any other davar ha’assur it should assur keilim. That is indeed how many poskim hold. Others are lenient in this regard and view cholov companies as mutar. But by definition one who uses only cholov Yisroel products is following ikar halachah even if cholov company (cholov stam) is also permitted.

    #1397296

    Joseph
    Participant

    Even those who hold by Rav Moshe’s shitta, Rav Moshe paskens that a Baal Nefesh should only eat Cholov Yisroel. He doesn’t pasken that a Baal Nefesh should only eat CY when home. So a Baal Nefesh should only eat CY anywhere, even when a guest, according to Rav Moshe.

    #1397297

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Seems to me Shimon needs a lesson on where to shop. Where does any Chalav Yisroel product cost 2.5 times more than equivalent non CY product? Did you mean he is on such a tight budget that he can’t afford to pay 2.5% higher cost?

    #1397295

    ftresi
    Participant

    Shimon lives in a NYC suburb where he buys CS stam milk for $2.25 / gallon in Costco. A half gallon of CY is $2.99 in his kosher supermarket, which comes out to more than 2.5x times the cost for a half gallon.

    #1397319

    No. But if it’s the shitta held by Reuven in our OP, that’s why Shimon is buying him Cholov Yisroel, davka.

    It’s unlikely that that’s the shittah referred to in the OP.

    Even those who hold by Rav Moshe’s shitta, Rav Moshe paskens that a Baal Nefesh should only eat Cholov Yisroel. He doesn’t pasken that a Baal Nefesh should only eat CY when home. So a Baal Nefesh should only eat CY anywhere, even when a guest, according to Rav Moshe.

    That’s a twisted bit of logic.

    #1397334

    Joseph
    Participant

    DY:

    1. There’s no reason to think that Reuven might not be someone who holds from the very widespread shitta that Cholov Stam is Cholov Akum mamish, and hence completely prohibited to consume.

    2. There’s nothing twisted about the point of a baal nefesh.

    3. Rav Moshe’s shitta is even stronger since he is only mattir bshas hadchak, and there’s nothing indicting Reuven is having a shas hadchak.

    #1397400

    apushatayid
    Participant

    If the pricing difference between costco and local heimish store is such a hardship on shimon, for the occasional purchase when his friend is over for a coffee, I would say it definitely a shas hadchak. in fact, i would ask reuven to bring his own milk.

    Now, you addressed the milk, you did not address “dairy products”. Besides milk which costco sells as a loss leader, what other c’y dairy products cost 2.5 times their non c’y equivalents.

    #1397428

    1. Yes there is
    2. ”
    3. Causing someone else hardship isn’t a sha’as had’chak?

    #1397472

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The solution. Reuven should invite Shimon over to his house.

    #1397683

    shuali
    Participant

    “3. Causing someone else hardship isn’t a sha’as had’chak?”
    Why is providing someone – a guest or a friend – with his kashrus needs considered a hardship by any definition?

    #1397694

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    apushatayid: Butter, ice cream, flavored cream cheese just to name a few.

    #1397696

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ice cream is never a shas hadchak.

    #1397709

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Rav Moshe’s Psak (based on the straight reading of most of his Teshuvos on the issue, as well as the testimony and practice of his children and many of his leading Talmidim) was that “Chalav HaCompanies” is Muttar mei’ikar hadin.
    There are only two types of milk: Chalav Yisrael which is Muttar, and Chalav Akum which is Assur. There is no debate about this. The point Rav Moshe made (which, for the record, is echoed by the Chazon Ish) was that based on the Umdena created by government regulations, Chalav HaCompanies qualifies as the Chalav Yisrael mentioned in Shulchan Aruch, just as butter does not need supervision.
    Nevertheless, he recommended that Baal Nefesh Yachmir. Most Poskim seem to agree that according to this Shita, it would not assur keilim. The Poskim who disagreed with Rav Moshe and held that Chalav HaCompanies is Chalav Akum hold that it is regular non-Kosher food, it assurs keilim, etc.

    It seems that the OP could only have held like Rav Moshe, since otherwise there is not really any room to maneuver. In any case, the entire concept of “Shaas Hadchak,” and related issues (hefsed meruba, et at) is about the financial cost of maintaining higher than the minimum Halachic standard, even where such higher standards are universally accepted, and even (sometimes, specifically) when the food will be given to guests.

    As a general point, the basic ground rule of Halacha, as established in Teshuvos HaRama, is that any Kula accepted in extenuating circumstances (Shaas hadchak, hefsed meruba, tzorech Shabbos/Yom Tov, etc.) must in fact be the Halachic standard, even if, under normal circumstances, we do not rely on it. In other words, no lenient opinion which is decidedly against the Halacha can be relied upon in any case. So those Poskim who allow Chalav Stam (even if only in Shaas Hadchak) by definition hold that it is Muttar mei’ikar hadin.

    Also, the issue at hand was not one of insulting the host (they apparently have no problem eating together despite the different standards that they maintain), but one of cost. The guest wishes to avoid causing his host to spend more than he has to, and wants to know if in such a situation he may eat CS, which is certainly a Shaila for one’s personal Rav.

    #1397722

    Catch yourself: a couple of corrections.

    The Chazon Ish was mattir milk (although not in the C.I., it has been writted that he was only mattir for children when there was no other milk) based on the Pri Chodosh, which is not the same as R’ Moshe’s heter, which applies despite the fact, R’ Moshe writes, that the Pri Chodosh’ heter was not accepted.

    The heter for butter is a different heter.

    R’ Moshe himself writes that keilim should be kashered, although R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky in Emes L’Yaakov disagrees.

    #1397724

    slominer
    Participant

    <R’ Moshe himself writes that keilim should be kashered>

    If R’ Moshe was mattir, in general, why would he require that keilim be kashered?

    #1397746

    catch yourself
    Participant

    DY – Thank you. I respect your opinion as quite educated and levelheaded, so I consider your attention a compliment.

    Nevertheless, I disagree with your corrections.

    In Sefer Chazon Ish (although I can’t provide a Mareh Makom, as it’s been so long since I saw it), the same logic relied upon by Rav Moshe is presented. It is possible that the Ch’I didn’t want to rely on this Lma’aseh, which explains why he only allowed milk with the P’Ch, but he does use the Sevara.

    Similarly, in constructing the Paris Eiruv, the Chazon Ish also did not rely on his own leniency. This interesting historical footnote notwithstanding, his Sevara is an important part of most municipal Eiruvin today.

    Butter doesn’t need supervision because we know by process of elimination that it must be kosher milk; Chalav Stam is an extension of the same principle.

    I don’t remember Rav Moshe saying to Kasher Keilim – Can you provide a reference?

    #1397931

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Joseph is new self fabricated coffee room rabbi.
    He decides what goes and what doesnt.

    #1398030

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Butter, ice cream, flavored cream cheese just to name a few.”

    I think you are shopping in the wrong stores.

    #1398393

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Cy whipped cream cheese not on a sale is 489-525. Cs same product is 200-250

    #1398499

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Really? Shoprite in Brooklyn – 1 lb of butter (sticks) – 2.99 – 3.99. Does CY even have sticks of butter? Tnuva is the closest with a 3.5 ounce bar at 1.99 (4 bars 14 ounces 7.96 Moisha’s).
    Ice cream 48 oz -(Turkey Hill or Friendly’s, sometimes Breyer’s) – 2.50. I don’t even price Klein’s or Mehadrin.
    Flavored cream cheese – Shoprite brand 8 oz 2.99. CY in Moisha’s 5.49.

    If you know stores with CY prices like the CS in Shoprite please post them.

    #1398729

    Here is the Chazon Ish. He is clearly saying that government supervision is good according to the Pri Chodosh.

    R’ Moshe’s heter is that we have an anan sahadi, so it actually has a din of cholov Yisroel, whereas the heter on butter is that it’s not required to be cholov Yisroel.

    The comparison to butter might work for the Pri Chodosh/Chazon Ish, but not for R’ Moshe.

    I’ll try to find the source referring to kashering.

    #1398734

    To explain further, the Chasam Sofer argued on the Pri Chodosh, and held that as a davar sheb’minyan, the gezeiras Chazal applies even when there is no chashash of iruv davar tamei.

    The Chazon Ish is siding with the Pri Chodosh. R’ Moshe is siding with the Chasam Sofer, but saying that government regulations are a kiyum of the takanas Chazal.

    #1398743

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    It is well-known that some people are makpid on c”y and some aren’t and there is no reason anyone should feel insulted if someone doesn’t drink their milk or buys his own, IMHO, as long as you don’t make a big speech about how Frum you are.

    #1398740

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Ice cream is never a shas hadchak.”

    Chocolate is.

    #1398741

    Bobchka
    Participant

    Joseph what exactly is a Baal nefesh?

    #1398742

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I would assume that most people who are makpid on chalav yisrael avoid eating milchiks at people’s houses who aren’t makpid on chalav yisrael. This shouldn’t be a big deal most of the time, especially since most of the time people eat at other people’s houses on Shabbos and Y”T when they aren’t serving milchiks.

    In the above situation, either Shimon can buy c”y milk for Reuven, or Reuven can provide his own milk. Reuven and Shimon are clearly good friends if Reuven eats at Shimon’s house during the week so often, so it shouldn’t be a big deal for them to discuss it and work it out in one of the above two ways.

    #1398774

    yehudayona
    Participant

    If Shimon is on such a tight budget, how can he afford Costco’s membership fee?

    #1398787

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    If Shimon is on such a tight budget, he probably shouldn’t have guests so often, or the guests should be considerate enough to provide some of the food.

    #1398794

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Costco membership fee – $60/yr or $5 a month. It’s very possible it is within his budget. Personally, I am not makpid on CY. If I know that either family members or friends who are makpid are coming over, we buy CY products for them. It seems that in the OP’s example, it is a close friendship between Reuvain and Shimon and not a case where Shimon is inviting many guests.

    #1398843

    apushatayid
    Participant

    How much butter, ice cream and flavored cream cheese do you buy a week?

    #1398855

    Joseph
    Participant

    “what exactly is a Baal nefesh?”

    Anyone who cares about their neshoma.

    #1399272

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    apushatayid: I don’t know what that has to do with the original question. However, if you must know, it depends on the week and which of my children are home from yeshiva. It’s time for you to understand that most people who eat CS are not going to be convinced to eat CY based on the comments here in the CR. Whether I buy butter, ice cream, flavored cream cheese, sour cream, milk once a week or once a month, CS is still significantly cheaper then CY.

    #1399358

    Catch yourself: here is where R’ Moshe writes that one who is makpid on cholov Yisroel should be makpid on keilim.

    YD 2: 31

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=919&pgnum=37

    See, in particular, the second to last paragraph.

    #1399368

    slominer
    Participant

    If someone is makpid on cholov Yisroel why would there even be a hava amina that he shouldn’t be makpid on keilim? It seems pashut if you’re makpid on one you should be makpid on both.

    #1399372

    R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky in Emes L’Yaakov has more than a hava amina; he holds that way.

    #1399377

    slominer
    Participant

    Okay, I’m not arguing. I’m just trying to understand the halachic logic to differentiate between the two.

    #1399382

    That’s a good question. I’ve had that question for some time.

    Obviously, this kula only applies where something is muttar meikar hadin. When someone accepts a chumra in kashrus, they can choose to accept it only for the item itself, not keilim, for the simple practical reason that accepting it for keilim is potentially a bigger hardship, because it means not eating in others’ homes even if they would buy the foods you accept.

    That part I think is clear, but the question remains whether there is a halachic way to distinguish, aside from the practical non acceptance of the chumra in certain cases.

    I think there is, perhaps, based on how blios work. We never really know for sure when or if the blios are nosen ta’am into the food. To illustrate, if we knew for sure that the first time you cooked in a treif pot all of the ta’am went into the food, it would be muttar to subsequently use that pot. The reason it’s assur to use the pot a second time is because we are choshesh that the ta’am didn’t leave the pot the first time.

    So, although obviously we asser pots which are balua even with an issur d’rabonon, perhaps on a chumra, we can be someich that the pot wasn’t nosen ta’am to the food.

    #1399416

    joe
    Participant

    today’s cs is very different then what was by r’ Moshe, it really not comparable there are many new issues that really stretch the boundaries of hetariem, and one would probably not make something similar in there own home.

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