Change of Pronunciation

Why do Chassidim have a different pronounciation than Sefardim? Than Yekkes? Than Temanim?

Accents change. Pronunciations change. If it didn’t, we would ALL speak exactly the same.

I grew up with the term aufruf (pronounced OW-fruf, as is the proper german pronounciation). If I say aufruf (OW-fruf) to most people they have no clue what I am saying. So I say ufruf.

I changed my nusach in tefila. My Rav said that was ok. Why would pronounciation be worse?

?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????, ?????? ???? ?-20, ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????.

?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???????? ????????: ???? ??????? – ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ???????, ????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????, ???? ?????? ???????. ???? ???????? – ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????, ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???????. ?? ???????? ??????? (? ??, ?????? ????? ???? ?) ?? ???? ?????? (??? ????????) ??? ???? ????? (??????? ???? ????????). ?????? ?????? ???????, ?????? ??? ????????, ????? ??? ??? ?? ?????. ?????? ?????? ????????, ?????? ??? ???????, ?? ????? ????? ??? ? ??? ??????. ???? ?????? – ?????? ?????? ???????, ????????

http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%92%D7%99%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99%D7%AA

There was a book out a few years ago in Hebrew about the Hebrew language that my old landlord read. He said something along the lines that ben-yehudah was trying to open up some maskilim schools in the old neighborhoods. But because everyone knew he was a maskil they never got off the ground and eventually he had to move on. So instead he went to the sefardim and since they didn’t know him he had better luck with them. So when he was making the language he went with their havara.

I can’t vouch for any of this. I did see the book being sold in a few shuls in the neighborhood but I never read it myself.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language not Satmar or Neturei Karta

Modern Israeli HebrewStandard Hebrew, as developed by Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, was based on Mishnaic spelling and Sephardi Hebrew pronunciation. However, the earliest speakers of Modern Hebrew had Yiddish as their native tongue and often brought into Hebrew idioms and literal translations from Yiddish.

RuffRuff, all Ashkenazim at some point came from the same place as sephardim. Pronounciations change with time, location, language etc.

mamashtakah – “..He told me it was OK to switch nusach, but not to switch pronunciation to Sfardit.His reasoning was that most people who do so end up pronouncing the words incorrectly.”

The Sephardim pronounce Hebrew correctly. Ashkenazim destroy the language, mostly by putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable. By doing this, they often change the meaning of the phrase. And before anyone jumps all over my comments, even the ‘holy’ Artscroll Siddurim have indicators of where to put the emphasis.

Before we discuss the validity of changing, I think there is a good question on the table which is:

We all have noticed that MO people have adopted the sefardi pronunciation.

Why have they done so? What does it have to do with being MO?

Actually, sefardim aren’t exactly correct either. Temanim are closer than anyone. Also, it is possible to speak ashkenazus correctly, though you may be laughed at by people who don’t know any better.

PopaBarAbba, the MO probably changed to identify with Medinat Yisrael. In addition, in many MO schools, there are Israeli teachers who pronounce Hebrew that way. Furthermore, in many MO schools, they teach Ivrit B’Ivrit, (Hebrew subjects are studied in Hebrew). That means Gemara, Chumash and so on are taught in Hebrew by the teacher, and the students must also ask all questions and give all responses in Hebrew. Since modern spoken Hebrew is pronounced in Sephardit, the students learn that pronunciation. They do not know of any other, and may daven that way, as well.

I had some teachers when I was very young who would say Ani lo meivein Anglit. They would force the students to speak Hebrew all morning. Now while I think that gemara and chumash should be taught in English, since that is how to best develop one’s thinking and lomdus, I do believe that at least one period a day should be devoted to Ivrit B’Ivrit. Yeshiva Bochurim who cannot read, write, or speak Hebrew are at a disadvantage in trying to learn just about any Gemara or even Chumash and Rashi.

Sam I Am:

If I may, I would like to turn your question on its head.

I am Ashkenazic, and my grandfather spoke with an Ashkenazic pronounciation, e.g., tav with dagesh, sav without, etc. I grew up in a Conservative home, and went to a Conservative Hebrew school where I learned the Israeli pronunciations for Hebrew (minus the unique “r” sound used by native Israelis of course).

Once I became frum, I was very interested in preserving as much of my family’s traditions as possible, doing things as my grandfather and his parents did. One thing that I did was to begin shifting the way I pronounced things in davening from the Israeli pronounciations to the Ashkenazic pronunciations of my grandfather.

In effect, I was changing my “custom” but adopting my family custom. Would you consider this the wrong thing to do or the right thing to do?

When I was learning Jewish History, I was taught that all of the original Tzionim were European and all spoke mostly Yiddish. When thay decided to make Hebrew the national language, Ben Yehuda was trying to eradicate everything yiddish in the country. Yiddish represented old school and mesorah while Hebrew represented the new and the enlightened. They wanted to totally break away with their mesorah and anything that would connect them with the frum Jews who spoke Yiddsh. Hence the creation of modern day Hebrew/Ivrit. But they also changed from their own natural havara to the sphardic havara because they wanted no connection to their own past and mesorah. (For those who think I went to some Satmer school and this is part of the shita against Tzionism, I actually lived on the west coast and had a pretty liberal secular education. But that is what I was taught and it makes alot of sense.)

Although we are at a disadvantage of being so long after the fact, and we cannot know the original pronunciation, there are many clues as to which one of the choices are correct. We know that the Ayin is supposed to be sounded along with the throat, the way the Taimanim do it. We know that there are five groups of letters, each group is sounded by a different area in the mouth. The Reish is grouped together with ZSShRTz, which means that it wasn’t pronounced the Israeli way. Also, Samach is together with Z and the whole group mention above, while Tav and Sav are listed together DTLNT. I think that the Taimanim pronounce it as “th”, which would concur with the rest of the group.

In any case, this discussion doesn’t have anything to do with who has the right way.

SJS, Your conversations can be in any dialect you wish. The issue is about Davening.

TMB: Specifically, he says that a person who davens nussach sfard (a cholent of several chasidish versions of nussach HaAri) can switch back to ashkenaz without hataras nedarim because that is what he should have been davening anyway.

ROB: But the underlying point of not changing ones customs vis-a-vis havara also applies here.

trying my best- do you really believe that you can control the pronunciation of people ? Children learn to talk by listening…and their hearing will pick up so many different accents….have you ever heard an american speak hebrew? or a german davening with its distinctive ‘german accent”? Nussach you can control- especially in our times when everything is printed but pronunciation???? By the way- we don’t even know the exactness of the tefillos of early times when it was written by hand and was subject to mistakes and ommissions. But pronunciation??

there is one thing which is (almost) absolute, aside from a few words here and there. The emphasis of syllables is agreed upon by everyone who knows what there talking about. there is no ashkenazi mesorah to pronounce all words with the emphasis on the 2nd to last syllable. however, this common mistake is widespread.

also, (this one I’m not so sure about), there is no “r” sound in hebrew. the old ashkenazim from europe pronounced the “resh” one of two ways. (i can’t spell it out but you probably know what i’m talking about). And the sepharadim certainly don’t have an “r” sound in their hebrew. the “r” came from american english.

He is probably talking about (what I think is called) the alveolar trill. For some reason though Modern Hebrew uses (what I think is called) the ulvular fricative.

re: KGH

"The Sephardim pronounce Hebrew correctly. Ashkenazim destroy the language, mostly by putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable. By doing this, they often change the meaning of the phrase. And before anyone jumps all over my comments, even the 'holy' Artscroll Siddurim have indicators of where to put the emphasis."

Your point on emphasis is somewhat correct, but, other than that, are you joking? How on earth can a kamatz and patach sound identical and have no sound for kamatz? And how sure are you that a tav without a dagesh is supposed to be pronounced identically with a dagesh?

The teimanim, who differentiate each letter/dagesh much more than sefardim and even ashkenazim do, are probably the closest to the original.

But Zionist hebrew, as a made-up dialect, has no place in anything holy like Tefillah. Nor does Yiddish, for that matter, just because your corner of Europe happened to pronounce a yiddish kamatz more like a segol in spite of your mesorah that clearly did not pronounce it that way before that.

The biggest proof, in my opinion, as to the invalidity of many of the common pronunciations out there is the complete lack of consistency.

For example, in chassidic havaras, some “kamatz” are pronounced properly like a kamatz (as in “much”) while most are pronounced improperly like a “shuruk” (as in “boot”).

In Ashkenazic havara, girls are taught a “cholam” is “oh” while boys are taught (often after being first taught correctly like the girls) it is pronounced “oy”. Sefardim and teimanim pronounce it “oh” and Germans slightly accent it to “ow”. Yet the “oy” is still taught as the correct way to pronounce “oh”?

Regarding emphasis:

Though Ashkenazim can, should, and in many cases do use the correct emphasis “Vi – A – Hav – **TA**”, not “Vi – A – **HAV** – ta” in shema is an example of an important difference that makes for a difference.

However, since English (and Yiddish) is typically pronounced “mileil”, not “milra” as much of lishon haKodesh is, English (and Yiddish) speakers tend to inadvertently but incorrectly apply the same pronunciation to lishon HaKodesh. This is a problem, and should be corrected, but it is not an Ashkenazi havara rule unlike the chassidic/yiddish and sefardi pronunciations whose issues *are* “policy”.

The real answer to this, I heard in a Jewish History class given by a Rosh Yeshiva. He said, that Ben-Yehuda, being ashkenazi and coming from a frum background, didn’t want to assosiate the zionist movement with the “old fashioned European Jew”. Taking on the sphardic havara gave Hebrew a new sound, nothing to do with the religious past. It was to wipe away all remenants of yiddishkeit.

And Blockhead – The ? is NOT a dental. The Dentals are ????? (which actually sounds like the word Dentals!) ? is part of the group called Sibilants, which also includes ????

ravshalom….

I think we all agree though, that its not pronounced as a palatal like the Israel resh is.

There seems to be a stirah in the first paragraph of dikduk hagrah.

He does put ? with those letters, and calls it ????? (a sibilant, because its made from air passing through the front teeth), but then goes on to say that letters from the same place or articulation can be switched, and as an example says ? and ?.

And who can leave out good ole’ waw (?), of which is most likely, for numerous reasons pronounced like a W and not like V.

It is very simple. The tzioini havara is a man-made street language and adopting it for tefila means that you put the values of modern Zionism above proper tefila. Listen to Shwekey sing Al Homotayich if you want an idea of how (some) Americanized Sefardim really speak – it does not sound like modern Hebrew at all.

Do you really want to speak to Hashem in the same language that you use to order a shawarma at the tahana hamerkazit?

In fact I use the old Russian-Litvish pronunciation at the amud davka because that is not my daily dialect even when I speak Yiddish (which was a street language as well but now is spoken mostly in the frume velt). I call my friend Moishe, but at the amud it’s Mayshe uvnei yisroel lecho onu beshira.

I just had a discussion with someone the other day along the lines of this topic!

Re kamatz, there is a difference between a regular kamatz and a kamatz koton which is sometimes replaced by a cholom. This may answer the seeming discrepancy mentioned above re pronounciation of a kamatz.

I’m not a boki in dikduk at all, and I’ve forgotten some of what I learned, but it is rather fascinating.

If I recall correctly, Rabbi Yisroel Reisman said that Rav Pam zt”l would say that it grates on the ears to hear someone say meLECH. There are some words in loshon kodesh, such as those with two segols (not a chataf segol) next to each other, that SHOULD have the emphasis on the second to last syllable, as opposed to the last. Another one I’ve heard is cheSED. Ouch! If you know how it is supposed to be said, it sounds terrible like this!

Most words, though, do properly have the emphasis at the end, as mentioned above.