December 15, 2010 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #593506
Here’s what bugging me.
Why are we referring to caring about looks as looking at the external? And not caring, as looking deeply?
“Looking at the external” means that you are superficial and judge things by their appearance. The application to dating would be if a guy would assume that a girl is a good person because she is pretty.
That is not happening, and never has.
What is happening is guys care about her appearance in addition to caring if she is a good person. There are two separate ends here, the person, and her appearance. This is akin to caring if your food tastes good, and also if it is healthy.
This has nothing to do with being shallow. It is not as if deep thinkers don’t care about the taste of their food, or the appearance of their wife.
I don’t know why women think that this is related to deep thinking. But, I think this brings an attitude of it being somehow moral for women to not care about their appearance, and the right, deep, guy will accept them how they are- which is absurd and gives them an out to not care.
There is another attitude that if guys will work on themselves they will get over it. There is a story from the chofetz chaim that when he was very old he was served by a girl in short sleeves, and he said, “do they think I’m a malach?”
I have never heard of a man who stopped caring about looks, I don’t believe it is possible, and I don’t think it is what G-d intended.December 15, 2010 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #718797
“The application to dating would be if a guy would assume that a girl is a good person because she is pretty.
That is not happening, and never has”
WHOA! back it up. Because I have heard it w my own ears.
Someone said it to me point blank, So and So will get married before her 2 sisters because she is a much better girl. I know for a fact middos wise she is NOT better than her older sisters, she is NOT smarter than her older sisters. All 3 went to the same HS and Seminary in E”Y, there is not much that sets her apart. BESIDES the fact that she is prettier… so apparently THAT makes her a “better” girl.December 15, 2010 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #718798
I second you on this. You are right. Many girls just dont get how Hashem wired us…December 15, 2010 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #718799
I was afraid nobody read my post. Thanks.
I think I can reconcile your story to my position.
While I don’t like to refer to people as better or worse based on shidduch potential, if the person in your story was referring to her overall chances in shidduchim, it is quite natural that he would include looks in his prognosis.December 15, 2010 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #718800
Very well said.
I believe it happened but I don’t think it’s the norm.December 15, 2010 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #718801
Sorry but I have to disagree.
I have plenty of friends who have wanted to date the really pretty girls and thought they were great girls.
I cant begin to tell you how wrong they were. ALOT of guys that I know do judge at least initially on looks. I know that it is wrong, but just the facts…December 15, 2010 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #718802whatrutalkingabtMember
“this brings an attitude of it being somehow moral for women to not care about their appearance”
Every girl and woman on this planet cares about her looks. Not just for men but for herself and her friends. Its a natural thing that we are all born with
Other than that I agree with your post. We are supposed to be impressing our husbands with our looks…but I dont think that means that girls should dress to kill on every dateDecember 15, 2010 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #718803eclipseMember
A woman must remember that Hashem wired us to enjoy being admired,and congruously,instilled men with a strong pull to “admire”.Obviously,we also want to be admired FOR OUR DEEPER ESSENCE,in addition to the above.At my age,all that’s left is the essence anyway!Okay.I’m exaggerating,but you know what I mean.December 15, 2010 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #718804
“Someone said it to me point blank, So and So will get married before her 2 sisters because she is a much better girl. I know for a fact middos wise she is NOT better than her older sisters, she is NOT smarter than her older sisters. All 3 went to the same HS and Seminary in E”Y, there is not much that sets her apart. BESIDES the fact that she is prettier… so apparently THAT makes her a “better” girl.”
That someone is a tipish. They are playing G-d and they have no clue what they are talking about. They know who will get married first?! There are plenty unattractive married girls that went before their sisters and I know of a # of very attractive girls who are still single. There are so many reasons why someone can be single. Lets not forget that Hashem runs the world…
There are people who have the mazel to find their Bashert on their first date and others who have to wait longer.
What I found true regarding myself is that the reason why I had to wait longer is because Hashem wanted me to work on a # of things in my personality and observance and had I gotten married a few years back Im pretty sure it would not have been nearly as great as it could be now.
Hashem loves us and does everything with Chessed. Even when it looks like Midas Hadin its Chessed.December 15, 2010 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #718805
fine so if a girl is pretty ….then why cant she ask for a gorgeous rich football player???December 15, 2010 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #718806
Couldn’t have said it better.December 15, 2010 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #718807
She could but won’t get it.December 15, 2010 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #718808
fine so if a girl is pretty ….then why cant she ask for a gorgeous rich football player???
Thats what happens all the time in the non Jewish world. Many pretty girls are gold diggers.
Not to say we dont have any Jewish female or male gold diggers…December 15, 2010 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #718809
“I dont think that means that girls should dress to kill on every date”
I think they should…December 15, 2010 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #718810egbooks47Member
“and I know of a # of very attractive girls who are still single”
Please forward me their info.
I am single and interested…..December 15, 2010 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #718811pascha bchochmaParticipant
We have to make the best with what we’re given. Many beautiful people have not developed other aspects of their personality, and when it comes to marrying someone, while you have to put your best foot forward, anyone who is judging you only on looks deserves what they get.December 15, 2010 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #718812
“I dont think that means that girls should dress to kill on every date”
I think they should…
They should. The biggest turn off is when they don’t even try.December 15, 2010 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #718813pascha bchochmaParticipant
and sacrilege: I agree that girls should dress well. Even SHlomo Hamelech was swayed by looks and had to point out that sheker hachein v’hevel hayofi.December 15, 2010 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #718814
A girl should most definitely dress her absolute best on a date. I can’t see one logical reason as to why she shouldn’t.December 15, 2010 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #718815
“A girl should most definitely dress her absolute best on a date. I can’t see one logical reason as to why she shouldn’t.”
100% correct however I have heard that there is some Yeshivish shita by yeshivish girls to dress plain on the first few dates and I dont get it. They are not using their seichel.December 15, 2010 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #718816
Put it this way. She should dress as least as well as she does for a friends wedding.December 15, 2010 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #718817
Different sort of dress for a wedding than a date but yeah…December 15, 2010 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #718818eclipseMember
Especially since the guy is going to assume it is your best!December 15, 2010 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #718819
You got it. We wear suits to dates and dress our best there’s no reason a girl shouldn’t do the same.December 15, 2010 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #718820
popa bear….had some bad dates lately?? :))December 15, 2010 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #718821
How many dates do you wear a suit for? I personally will for 2 and then the 3rd w/o a tie…..After that, dress clothes.December 15, 2010 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #718822
“We wear suits to dates”
Not all guys do…December 15, 2010 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #718823
i love it when a guy suits up…December 15, 2010 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #718824yeshivaguy1Participant
Sacrilege the person meant that the girl is a bigger catch not a better person. She is a girl with x internals and a 10 is a bigger catch than a girl who is x internals and a 3; it’s simple mathDecember 15, 2010 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #718825dbwcbbMember
To the guys who are writing in this post:
if a girl showed up wearing a dress she’d wear to a wedding, (even though yes, i know you’re wearing a suit you’d wear to a wedding), you’d think she was overly dressed. trust me on this 😉December 15, 2010 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #718826
Really? for a date? I find it so pretentious.
Their exact words where, “The younger sister is a better girl”December 15, 2010 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #718827
Me too! But some of my friends like guys in polo shirts better so go figure…
Half the guys probably wouldn’t even notice 🙂December 15, 2010 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #718828yeshivaguy1Participant
you think? guys aren’t as clueless to looks as you think (haven’t you read the posts)December 15, 2010 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #718829
I have read the posts but from the guys in my life this is what I’ve noticed. A friend was telling me the scene in her house when her brother comes back from date:
After the usual rundown…
Friend: “So what was she wearing?”
Brother: “I think a skirt and sweater.”
Friend: “What color?”
Brother: “Black skirt, pink sweater.”
Friend: “Straight skirt? Pleated skirt? Flary skirt? Was the sweater dark or light pink?”
Brother: “You seriously expect me to know that”?? *Finds a pink object in the house* “It was something like this.”
Friend: “Heels or flats”
Friend: “How was her hair”?
Brother: “I know that one. Down.”
Friend: “Duh. Was it to the side, back, part in the middle”?
Brother: “It all looked the same to me.”
ETCDecember 15, 2010 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #718830
That is all related to the style of the clothing.
Now, if your friend had asked: “Was she attractive? Was she dressed in an attractive way?”, he could have answered. He is telling the shadchan anyway.December 15, 2010 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #718831
Yup, sounds like my bro after a date.
However, some boys care more about these things than others.December 15, 2010 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #718832
uh oh..sac are you my sister?
lol jk, but the first girl that I dated I came back and my mother asked me those questions, I couldn’t even answer her…December 15, 2010 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #718833
Yes, most guys can tell you if they found her attractive or not. But details…forget about it.
Definitely true. It’s just rather funny listening to it.December 15, 2010 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #718834
Could be… my bro does love Peanut Butter… 😉December 15, 2010 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #718835
lol and THATS why we cant go out…even if you wanted a “sanchez”;)December 15, 2010 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #718836phillybubbyParticipant
Speaking from experience (since I have quite a few sons), a boy may not notice the exact style of clothing that was worn by his date as long as she looked good but boy would I hear about the style, etc. if the clothes were not tasteful, or not tzniusdik, or shabby looking, etc.December 15, 2010 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #718837
PB and Sac:
And people were trying to set you guys up? Oy!December 15, 2010 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #718838whatrutalkingabtMember
Sac and popa-
Sorry I think I didnt explain myself clearly. I didnt mean a girl shouldnt dress nice for a date. Of course she should dress as pretty as she can.
What I meant was (in response to popa saying that girls have to remember how men are wired) that you dont have to dress to kill in the same way that you would for your future husband (which may not be as tznius)December 15, 2010 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #718839
It depends if the guy is detail oriented or not. I usually pick up on details (sometimes too much!) and I would notice certain things like how she wears her hair or heels vs no heels. Hey thats me I analyze things I cant help myself…December 15, 2010 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #718840charliehallParticipant
I don’t think Shlomo HaMelech’s dating history should be a model for frum Jews today.December 15, 2010 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #718841
I still disagree. I think she should dress as nicely as she would dress if going out with her husband.
And of course it in not tznius. It is dating, the whole thing is not tznius.December 15, 2010 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #718842
Yea well its a good thing we caught on so soon… How awkward would it be to show up for a date and it was your own sister?December 15, 2010 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #718843
popa bear what are u smoking?!!?December 15, 2010 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #718844
Thats not why… He is married now. So your just another Sanchez PB-aholic.December 15, 2010 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #718845
I usually know when I post something absurd. Did I forget a recent absurd post?
(Look on the tzedaka calls thread for a good absurd post)
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