Changing The Tone On Looks In Dating

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  • #593506
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Here’s what bugging me.

    Why are we referring to caring about looks as looking at the external? And not caring, as looking deeply?

    “Looking at the external” means that you are superficial and judge things by their appearance. The application to dating would be if a guy would assume that a girl is a good person because she is pretty.

    That is not happening, and never has.

    What is happening is guys care about her appearance in addition to caring if she is a good person. There are two separate ends here, the person, and her appearance. This is akin to caring if your food tastes good, and also if it is healthy.

    This has nothing to do with being shallow. It is not as if deep thinkers don’t care about the taste of their food, or the appearance of their wife.

    I don’t know why women think that this is related to deep thinking. But, I think this brings an attitude of it being somehow moral for women to not care about their appearance, and the right, deep, guy will accept them how they are- which is absurd and gives them an out to not care.

    There is another attitude that if guys will work on themselves they will get over it. There is a story from the chofetz chaim that when he was very old he was served by a girl in short sleeves, and he said, “do they think I’m a malach?”

    I have never heard of a man who stopped caring about looks, I don’t believe it is possible, and I don’t think it is what G-d intended.

    #718797
    Sacrilege
    Member

    “The application to dating would be if a guy would assume that a girl is a good person because she is pretty.

    That is not happening, and never has”

    WHOA! back it up. Because I have heard it w my own ears.

    Someone said it to me point blank, So and So will get married before her 2 sisters because she is a much better girl. I know for a fact middos wise she is NOT better than her older sisters, she is NOT smarter than her older sisters. All 3 went to the same HS and Seminary in E”Y, there is not much that sets her apart. BESIDES the fact that she is prettier… so apparently THAT makes her a “better” girl.

    #718798
    WIY
    Member

    popa

    I second you on this. You are right. Many girls just dont get how Hashem wired us…

    #718799
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I was afraid nobody read my post. Thanks.

    I think I can reconcile your story to my position.

    While I don’t like to refer to people as better or worse based on shidduch potential, if the person in your story was referring to her overall chances in shidduchim, it is quite natural that he would include looks in his prognosis.

    #718800
    dunno
    Member

    popa:

    Very well said.

    Sac:

    I believe it happened but I don’t think it’s the norm.

    #718801

    Popa,

    Sorry but I have to disagree.

    I have plenty of friends who have wanted to date the really pretty girls and thought they were great girls.

    I cant begin to tell you how wrong they were. ALOT of guys that I know do judge at least initially on looks. I know that it is wrong, but just the facts…

    #718802

    “this brings an attitude of it being somehow moral for women to not care about their appearance”

    Every girl and woman on this planet cares about her looks. Not just for men but for herself and her friends. Its a natural thing that we are all born with

    Other than that I agree with your post. We are supposed to be impressing our husbands with our looks…but I dont think that means that girls should dress to kill on every date

    #718803
    eclipse
    Member

    A woman must remember that Hashem wired us to enjoy being admired,and congruously,instilled men with a strong pull to “admire”.Obviously,we also want to be admired FOR OUR DEEPER ESSENCE,in addition to the above.At my age,all that’s left is the essence anyway!Okay.I’m exaggerating,but you know what I mean.

    #718804
    WIY
    Member

    Sacrilege

    “Someone said it to me point blank, So and So will get married before her 2 sisters because she is a much better girl. I know for a fact middos wise she is NOT better than her older sisters, she is NOT smarter than her older sisters. All 3 went to the same HS and Seminary in E”Y, there is not much that sets her apart. BESIDES the fact that she is prettier… so apparently THAT makes her a “better” girl.”

    That someone is a tipish. They are playing G-d and they have no clue what they are talking about. They know who will get married first?! There are plenty unattractive married girls that went before their sisters and I know of a # of very attractive girls who are still single. There are so many reasons why someone can be single. Lets not forget that Hashem runs the world…

    There are people who have the mazel to find their Bashert on their first date and others who have to wait longer.

    What I found true regarding myself is that the reason why I had to wait longer is because Hashem wanted me to work on a # of things in my personality and observance and had I gotten married a few years back Im pretty sure it would not have been nearly as great as it could be now.

    Hashem loves us and does everything with Chessed. Even when it looks like Midas Hadin its Chessed.

    #718805
    cshapiro
    Member

    fine so if a girl is pretty ….then why cant she ask for a gorgeous rich football player???

    #718806

    WIY

    Couldn’t have said it better.

    #718807
    dunno
    Member

    cshapiro:

    She could but won’t get it.

    #718808
    WIY
    Member

    cshapiro

    fine so if a girl is pretty ….then why cant she ask for a gorgeous rich football player???

    Thats what happens all the time in the non Jewish world. Many pretty girls are gold diggers.

    Not to say we dont have any Jewish female or male gold diggers…

    #718809
    Sacrilege
    Member

    whatru

    “I dont think that means that girls should dress to kill on every date”

    I think they should…

    #718810
    egbooks47
    Member

    WIY-

    “and I know of a # of very attractive girls who are still single”

    Please forward me their info.

    I am single and interested…..

    #718811

    We have to make the best with what we’re given. Many beautiful people have not developed other aspects of their personality, and when it comes to marrying someone, while you have to put your best foot forward, anyone who is judging you only on looks deserves what they get.

    #718812
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    whatru

    “I dont think that means that girls should dress to kill on every date”

    I think they should…

    They should. The biggest turn off is when they don’t even try.

    #718813

    and sacrilege: I agree that girls should dress well. Even SHlomo Hamelech was swayed by looks and had to point out that sheker hachein v’hevel hayofi.

    #718814
    dunno
    Member

    A girl should most definitely dress her absolute best on a date. I can’t see one logical reason as to why she shouldn’t.

    #718815
    WIY
    Member

    dunno

    “A girl should most definitely dress her absolute best on a date. I can’t see one logical reason as to why she shouldn’t.”

    100% correct however I have heard that there is some Yeshivish shita by yeshivish girls to dress plain on the first few dates and I dont get it. They are not using their seichel.

    #718816
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Put it this way. She should dress as least as well as she does for a friends wedding.

    #718817
    dunno
    Member

    popa:

    Different sort of dress for a wedding than a date but yeah…

    #718818
    eclipse
    Member

    Especially since the guy is going to assume it is your best!

    #718819
    WIY
    Member

    Eclipse

    You got it. We wear suits to dates and dress our best there’s no reason a girl shouldn’t do the same.

    #718820
    cshapiro
    Member

    popa bear….had some bad dates lately?? :))

    #718821

    WIY

    How many dates do you wear a suit for? I personally will for 2 and then the 3rd w/o a tie…..After that, dress clothes.

    #718822
    Sacrilege
    Member

    WIY

    “We wear suits to dates”

    Not all guys do…

    #718823
    cshapiro
    Member

    i love it when a guy suits up…

    #718824
    yeshivaguy1
    Participant

    Sacrilege the person meant that the girl is a bigger catch not a better person. She is a girl with x internals and a 10 is a bigger catch than a girl who is x internals and a 3; it’s simple math

    #718825
    dbwcbb
    Member

    To the guys who are writing in this post:

    if a girl showed up wearing a dress she’d wear to a wedding, (even though yes, i know you’re wearing a suit you’d wear to a wedding), you’d think she was overly dressed. trust me on this 😉

    #718826
    Sacrilege
    Member

    cshapiro

    Really? for a date? I find it so pretentious.

    yg1

    Their exact words where, “The younger sister is a better girl”

    #718827
    dunno
    Member

    cshapiro:

    Me too! But some of my friends like guys in polo shirts better so go figure…

    dbwcbb:

    Half the guys probably wouldn’t even notice 🙂

    #718828
    yeshivaguy1
    Participant

    you think? guys aren’t as clueless to looks as you think (haven’t you read the posts)

    #718829
    dunno
    Member

    yeshivaguy1:

    I have read the posts but from the guys in my life this is what I’ve noticed. A friend was telling me the scene in her house when her brother comes back from date:

    After the usual rundown…

    Friend: “So what was she wearing?”

    Brother: “I think a skirt and sweater.”

    Friend: “What color?”

    Brother: “Black skirt, pink sweater.”

    Friend: “Straight skirt? Pleated skirt? Flary skirt? Was the sweater dark or light pink?”

    Brother: “You seriously expect me to know that”?? *Finds a pink object in the house* “It was something like this.”

    Friend: “Heels or flats”

    Brother: “Umm…”

    Friend: “Jewelry”?

    Brother: “Umm…”

    Friend: “How was her hair”?

    Brother: “I know that one. Down.”

    Friend: “Duh. Was it to the side, back, part in the middle”?

    Brother: “It all looked the same to me.”

    ETC

    #718830
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Dunno:

    That is all related to the style of the clothing.

    Now, if your friend had asked: “Was she attractive? Was she dressed in an attractive way?”, he could have answered. He is telling the shadchan anyway.

    #718831
    Sacrilege
    Member

    dunno

    Yup, sounds like my bro after a date.

    However, some boys care more about these things than others.

    #718832

    uh oh..sac are you my sister?

    lol jk, but the first girl that I dated I came back and my mother asked me those questions, I couldn’t even answer her…

    #718833
    dunno
    Member

    popa:

    Yes, most guys can tell you if they found her attractive or not. But details…forget about it.

    Sac:

    Definitely true. It’s just rather funny listening to it.

    #718834
    Sacrilege
    Member

    PB

    Could be… my bro does love Peanut Butter… 😉

    #718835

    Sac

    lol and THATS why we cant go out…even if you wanted a “sanchez”;)

    #718836
    phillybubby
    Participant

    Speaking from experience (since I have quite a few sons), a boy may not notice the exact style of clothing that was worn by his date as long as she looked good but boy would I hear about the style, etc. if the clothes were not tasteful, or not tzniusdik, or shabby looking, etc.

    #718837
    dunno
    Member

    PB and Sac:

    And people were trying to set you guys up? Oy!

    #718838

    Sac and popa-

    Sorry I think I didnt explain myself clearly. I didnt mean a girl shouldnt dress nice for a date. Of course she should dress as pretty as she can.

    What I meant was (in response to popa saying that girls have to remember how men are wired) that you dont have to dress to kill in the same way that you would for your future husband (which may not be as tznius)

    #718839
    WIY
    Member

    It depends if the guy is detail oriented or not. I usually pick up on details (sometimes too much!) and I would notice certain things like how she wears her hair or heels vs no heels. Hey thats me I analyze things I cant help myself…

    #718840
    charliehall
    Participant

    pascha bchochma,

    I don’t think Shlomo HaMelech’s dating history should be a model for frum Jews today.

    #718841
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    whatrutalkingabt:

    I still disagree. I think she should dress as nicely as she would dress if going out with her husband.

    And of course it in not tznius. It is dating, the whole thing is not tznius.

    #718842

    Dunno

    Yea well its a good thing we caught on so soon… How awkward would it be to show up for a date and it was your own sister?

    #718843
    cshapiro
    Member

    popa bear what are u smoking?!!?

    #718844
    Sacrilege
    Member

    PB

    Thats not why… He is married now. So your just another Sanchez PB-aholic.

    #718845
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    cshapiro: ?

    I usually know when I post something absurd. Did I forget a recent absurd post?

    (Look on the tzedaka calls thread for a good absurd post)

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