December 18, 2017 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1429521
@daasyochid. See the note at the most bottom left of the page.
He seems to be saying that the top was rounded but not the bottom of the branches.
No depiction of the menorah shows that, and more importantly, it’s against the gemara, so that can’t be what the אבן עזרא means.
מנחות כ”ח ע”ב
אמר שמואל משמיה דסבא גובהה של מנורה שמנה עשר טפחים הרגלים והפרח ג’ טפחים וטפחיים חלק וטפח שבו גביע וכפתור ופרח וטפחיים חלק וטפח כפתור ושני קנים יוצאין ממנו אחד אילך ואחד אילך ונמשכין ועולין כנגד גובהה של מנורה וטפח חלק וטפח כפתור ושני קנים יוצאין ממנו אחד אילך ואחד אילך נמשכין ועולין כנגד גובהה של מנורה וטפח חלק וטפח כפתור ושני קנים יוצאין ממנו אחד אילך ואחד אילך ונמשכין ועולין כנגד גובהה של מנורהDecember 18, 2017 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1429544
Also, using the same reasoning, that if the מעשה חושב and חכמת המשכן had seen the picture drawn by the רמב”ם, they would have changed their minds, you could similarly argue that had the רמב”ם seen all of the evidence, he would have agreed that it was round.December 18, 2017 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1429591
Does anyone know who wrote the אור ישראל?December 18, 2017 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #14296565ishParticipant
“untucked shirts and beards which is a chabad reference to meshichistim”
Naaaah. Plenty of lubavitcher bochurim from all varieties have their shirts untucked. Plenty of mishichistim have their shirts tucked in. If that is your litmus test your not gonna get very accurate info.December 18, 2017 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1429635
Please check the picture on col showing 90 degree angled menorah by 770 lighting in previous years. I tried leaving a polite comment pointing out how come the branches weren’t diagonal but do to the propaganda agenda it obviously wasn’t published. Also if you look at the White House public menorah that chabad light it is not diagonal branches. And there are a few more places with such menorahs. Can someone please answer me why they hypocrisy?December 18, 2017 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1429655
Shishkabab, I never knew you were such a fierce chabad opposer. I mean, I knew that there are some people here that aren’t exactly fond of Chabad, but your comments completely threw me off balance.
“you are a prime example of the brainwashed propaganda spewing lubavitcher.”
Whoa, that’s vicious alright.
“I saw an article on col on a peace meeting between lubavitch and belz. Comments were so hateful “we will never forgive them” and ” when belz change their golden menorah on the aron kodesh to a chabad/rambam menorah then we will know there is peace. REALLY!!”
For the record, most comments on col are written by bored kids sitting at home looking for some interest in their lives; There are some people like that here too.
“And for the record you pointed out untucked shirts and beards which is a chabad reference to meshichistim and you tried to invalidate them as a typical chabad mindset.”
Untucked shirts and beards do not exclusively refer to meshichistim; It is a Chabad thing in general.
and not all Lubavitchers are mishichistim. (you learn something new everyday. Your welcome)December 18, 2017 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1429715
Another thing is I spoke to a lubavitcher recently he’s actually Bal teshuva so he’s usually only fed the things he says which are meant to make sense in his mind, and he says that he was by theohel and saw “poilisher” chassidim. He tells me “this proves that chabad is the best. Everyone else is non decisive in who they are”. ” How many lubavitxhers visit other rabbis or ohel.
I think that ignorant comment alone deserves no reply but I said the reason lubavitchers don’t go anywhere else is because they have no respect for others Rabbis or Rebbes, and even more so they disrespect other Rabbis outside of chabad.
So it’s basically a lose lose situation, if yidden visit chabad sites ohel/770 or learn tanya then chabadsters boast “see they are not decisive and are leaving their ways for chabad”
But if not then ” everyone hates chabad they won’t learn tanya or go to the ohel!”
You just can’t winDecember 18, 2017 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1429778
And no sorry to not play to your tune but ai am not a chabad opposer. I actually love the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
What I hate is the arrogance that you have and the fact that you believe that only the chabad opinions are right and not only that you also believe that everyone else should follow your opinions, because after all there cant be any valid Torah outside of lubaitch. And yes I know youll defend and find excuses about how its not true and chabad isnt about that, but give me a break I think its a little late to convince anyone here seeing as how you displayed your true colors on previous threads and here as well.
Regarding col Ive heard that excuse so many times but all it is, is a cover-up since col pretty accurately portrays the mindset of most lubavitchers. Ive heard first hand freely ridiculing others and the famous line “thats the difference between us and them”. Whether at a “farbrengen” if you can call it that when it usually turns into a bash-fest, 770, or even at a persons shabbos table when I was this close to walking out. It was despicable. Actually if youd like to compare “us and them”, then at least by “them” (outside of chabad) they dont compare and try to put down other Yidden every spare chance they get together.
You definitely wont convince me about your phony col excuses of how it doesnt reflect the lubavitchers mindsets because I know many lubavitchers and have actually spent time there so I know exactly what Im talking about. You will never realize this because you are part of it and will always be told “its because everyone hates chabad” or “they are jealous” or “they dont have the tanya”.
How can you justify such hate filled comments that are so freely thrown around whether on col or in person? They make you feel as if youll get some bonus points the more you put down litvishers and chassidim outside of chabad.
Not everyone goes by your customs or wants to follow them. Can you understand that everyone has their own Rabbis, minhagim, and opinions?
And btw you guys keep ignoring when I point out that even in 770 the menorah wasnt always diagonal and even some yeshivas have a curved branch menorah displayed in some form and including these public chanuka menorahs in D.C. and elsewhere which arent diagonal branches. Such hypocrisy.
” I mean, I knew that there are some people here that aren’t exactly fond of Chabad, but your comments completely threw me off balance.”
– You also knew that there are many lubavitchers who arent exactly fond of ANYONE else who isnt chabad right? And when I say many I mean pretty much everyone.
p.s.- kidush lubavitch!December 18, 2017 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1429770
I think the only one being fed propaganda here is you. Lubavitchers don’t boast about other people learning tanya or going to the Ohel as you say. We completely respect other minhagim, chasidic sects and Rebbeim outside of chabad just as it says in the Torah v’ohavta L’reiacha k’mocha.
poilishers that you see praying at the Ohel or 770, came of their own volition, whether to fundraise, or to Daven at the hailiger Rebbe’s shul. They realize and understandon their own the holiness of the Rebbe and the effect their prayers there have on them.
There was never any deal “you come Daven at our shul, we come Daven at your shul”
they chose to come there and good for them. but why do we have to go and travel to the belzer rebbe’s shul just because they came to us?
think about it for a moment and then get back to me.December 18, 2017 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1429798
Litvish, we’ve had plenty of threads recently (now closed) that show that many others have had similar experiences with Chabad. It really doesn’t do you any good to keep repeating them. Maybe in other cases you can say they play the victim unfairly, but look, you started this thread, not them. Of course they’re going to defend their shittos.
I’m with Uber. I’m interested in where that came from about the first menorah being straight, but the second curved. That’s not just a Chabad thing?December 18, 2017 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1429805
chochom, I did not need more than a moment to think about it since your answer/defense was so predictable.
“Lubavitchers don’t boast about other people learning tanya or going to the Ohel as you say.”
“We completely respect other minhagim, chasidic sects and Rebbeim outside of chabad”
“They realize and understandon their own the holiness of the Rebbe”
-So that means they undermine everyone elses including their own Rebbeims holiness am I right?
“There was never any deal “you come Daven at our shul, we come Daven at your shul””
-Ya noone said there was but when someone shows respect to chabad then it automatically means he “converted” his way right? And how come its against chabad code to show repsect/daven/visit another Rebbes tziyun, but not against anyone elses beliefs who show respect to all Rabbanim, Rebbes, minhagim and Yidden? Is it because chabad is above everyone else- (wait dont answer)-YES!
You dont have to travel to anyones shul just respect others. Including when you are ranting by farbrengens.December 18, 2017 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1429811
RE: the shape of the menorah in 770 and around.
There can be a billion and one reasons why it was more convenient to buy a curved Menorah rather than straight.
To name a few: cheaper; was the only one left in the store; didn’t want to spend money on a menorah so they picked one up that they found lying around; there was another menorah that you didn’t notice which was straight and the curved one were to appease the people who had the minhag of having a curved one; The scatterbrained tzfatim (whom Iv’e explained are not your example of a Lubavitcher. they are a radicalized group of youth who go crazy all the time. never confuse a Tzfati with a regular Lubavitcher.) were not paying attention and they bought the wrong one etc.December 18, 2017 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1429812
Neville ChaimBerlin- Defending ones shittos doesnt have to entail arrogantly putting everyone else down who has differing opinions.
Besides I didnt attack them on my thread I simply put the question out there. I didnt ask anyone to put others down just because not everyone thinks like them. But the way they defend their views is always by putting others down and mocking.
There are many views and opinions on the Torah and others outside chabad are also entitled to have their own view.
-Chabad dont believe it was ever curved so no its not just a chabad thing either way.
And I still didnt get an answer on why they had used and still use menorahs which arent diagonal branches which Ive stated a number of times in almost every post.
Nor an answer on second Bayis since it wasnt built via miracle and apparently wasnt possible to make that shape which would hold up.
Besides im not the one who waged a war on “false menorahs”.
How come no other Yidden whether chassidish or litvish feel a need to shove their opinions in everyones face and try to prove everyone wrong? Every menorah lighting they have to point out about the straight branches.December 18, 2017 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #1429821
Litvisherchossid, as you may have noticed, I’m not exactly a Lubavicher, but your ranting is really way over the top.December 19, 2017 12:59 am at 12:59 am #1429824
@bitul- what on earth are you talking about? Im talking about the big menorah lit on chanukah in 770! Theres a picture now on col showing the Rebbe and the menorah being lit in the 70s,or80,s. It had 90 degree angles. I tried commenting but my innocent comment didnt fit their propaganda so it wasnt published.
Also the menorah by the amud looked the same and there are pictures. So bash yourselves for those years where it wasnt diagonal and then maybe move on to bashing others.
Also change the menorah at south beach yeshiva since its curved(gate covering aron kodesh)
And no, no lubavitcher is buying a curved menorah to appease those who believe it was that shape. Why would that be one of your examples haha?December 19, 2017 5:20 am at 5:20 am #1429827
@DaasYochid- Sorry. I dont know how familiar you are with the whole chabad/crown heights world. I on the other hand am very familiar so you would understand me very well if you knew. Anyone who knows their mentality close up will be singing the same song. I know noone is perfect but there are certain things that people just cannot stand anymore.
Besides I recently made the mistake of answering a call from a guy living in crown heights, and the first thing he starts of the conversation is bashing how certain people eat cholov stam, who do they think they are, theres only one rebbe, chabad is the best, everyone comes to chabad but chabad stay since they truly believe their ways and others are not decisive,chabad have a way of reaching holier levels than everyone else, chabad niggunim are the holiest, Mesilas Yesharim didnt really do it for him( since hes not sure if its chabad approved obviously)chabad this chabad that and so on until I had to just hang up.
So maybe you caught me in a stormy mood, but things I mention are from experience and reading on their website. Again, ones who have this experience know exactly what Im talking about. And they can have whatever minhagim they choose, but the arrogance that everyone has to agree with them is beyond my patience.
This is a barrier to achdus which noone else has to deal with until they come along.December 19, 2017 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1429924
This is a barrier to achdus which noone else has to deal with until they come along.
Do you really think your incessant ranting will increase achdus?
I do know some Lubavicher chassidim, and I don’t get the impression that they’re particularly arrogant. Yes they do think their ways are correct. I don’t have a problem with that per se, except for the parts that have veered from normative Judaism.
I don’t know about “holier”, but they do probably have the best nigunim.December 19, 2017 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1429928
Litvishchosid: I am all too familiar with the Chabad/Crown Heights world. I know exactly to what you are referring, but it isn’t doing us any good to be going on about it like this. There is unquestionably a Chabad “custom” to go around telling everyone that their menorahs are wrong for being curved and that they’re based on carvings by Roman idolaters rather than the Rambam, etc. But this thread has largely done the opposite of what you probably wanted.
1) Other archeological evidence was brought up to show it’s not just the arch of Titus with round branches. This just corroborates Chabad’s argument that we’re paskening from archeology instead of Rishonim, which would be wrong.
2) By a simple count, you’ve thrown more punches on this thread than them. So, solely within the context of this thread, it’s hard to claim we’re the victims.December 19, 2017 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1429929
Also, word of advice, if reading Chabad websites is what puts you in this mood, stop doing it.December 19, 2017 10:21 am at 10:21 am #1429957
@DaasYochid-I dont know what the ranting would do but I would hope at least some of it will make them realize the other side of the coin.
“I do know some Lubavicher chassidim, and I don’t get the impression that they’re particularly arrogant.”
-Yes you know only some so your not really in a position to fully understand. If you were ever in the system or spoke to MANY not just some you would get a better idea.
And youre right that they think their ways are correct but thats fine with me as everyone typically believes in their ways thats why they follow it. The problem only arises when you expect everyone to also follow your ways and proactively push it on others by trying to prove how you are right and they are wrong and not accept any other views as valid.
Besides if you would ever check their site once in a while(only to understand) and especially their comments you would be disgusted and shocked. And yes, the sites propaganda and comments does reflect and affect their mindset and they are very careful what comments they let through so that it doesnt affect their agenda.
Everything that they make news out of they will always try to connect it to chabad to take credit for it and show as if they are the leaders of he Yiddishe Velt. For example Rabbi Meir Soloveitchik lit the Menorah in the white house last week, col posted the article, first comment-“Rabbi Soloveitchik learned in lubavitch cheder in chicago”. Does that tell you enough? What does that comment prove? Is he lubavitch now? Did it matter that he studied at Brisk in actual Yeshiva age and not cheder? How many lubavitchers go to non chabad cheder for whatever circimstance? Whats the difference.
Or when a Gadol passed away the comments stated “oh well he didnt hate chabad so ya he was a Gadol he will be missed”. Absolutely appaling.
No other site or Jewish sect will you see or hear this type of talk. Everyone had machokes throughout the years but lubavitchers decide to keep grudges against everyone and say Yimach Shemo on some Gedoilim or freely mock them, and only accept ones who “prove” to them that they have no issue or are “close to chabad”December 19, 2017 10:21 am at 10:21 am #1429963
“Does anyone know who wrote the אור ישראל?”
If you are referring to the above link, its a Journal (monthly or quarterly) with many contributing Rabanim, scholars , manuscripts, etc. You can find most of it on Hebrewbooks. The one I posted has two write-ups on the above topic. One is pro and one is against. (just click on the link and scroll further…)
If you are referring to a Sefer, there are few. One that comes to mind is from Rav Yisrael Salanter.December 19, 2017 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1429980
“This just corroborates Chabad’s argument that we’re paskening from archeology instead of Rishonim, which would be wrong.”
Sorry. You are misreading the posts, you should read the write-up that Daas posted in entirely .
In summary –
a) The Curved branches has been the shape that all Klal Yisrael has identified the Menorah with — for the past 2000 yrs plus.
b) There are definitely many Rishonim and Gadolei M’forshei Achronim (Ibn Ezrah, Maseh Choshev etc) supporting it.
c) The very Rambam mentioned can be interpreted in diff ways, that still does not conflict the above mesorah.
d) Archeology supports the above pshatim, the minhag and all Rishonim that uphold that it is indeed curved.
Note – if the Rambam would have been 100% clear that it is diagonally shaped you would have had a point. Now that all evidence points the other way, we assume the pshat in Rambam is not like Chabad understood.December 19, 2017 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1429990
we assume the pshat in Rambam is not like Chabad understood
How do you deal with the fact that his son says the Rambam held that the branches were straight?December 19, 2017 11:07 am at 11:07 am #1430006
@Neville ChaimBerlin- Im not claiming to be “the victim” thats not what this is about. Anyway playing the victim is to be seen by the general picture not this thread. My point was actually to get a serious answer, and an answer as to why their menorahs in 770 and other places werent always diagonal and some still arent. But as they do best when they dont have an answer they just kept repeating the same thing or ignoring what was pointed out.
Also its not just archaeology if the Ibn Ezra also viewed it as curved, and if even the Rambam wrote that his drawing was for illustrious purposes only. Besides did Rashi explicitly write that it wasnt like on titus arch?
And even after all if the Rambam and Rashi do hold that it was diagonal, those are pretty much the only sources known and probably there are other opinions. Chabad is very selective in who they follow so its basically just the Rambam. No other sources are valid.
And why do people learn things that happened on tisha b’av from josephus is that not a problem? Was it a reliable “Jewish” source?
Your right I but I try to stay away from chabad websites like a flame but sometimes I google things and itll lead me there or something will catch my eye. Also sometimes I am curious to check their take on certain news that happen in the Jewish world just to confirm and I am always disappointed.Besides its not just the chabad site its also people I know from the past who will call or come across, and also just random chabadnicks talking on the phone or to me which I have to deal with. But ya.
And if you noticed I am not some “misnaged” just hating chabad because they have different/strange minhagim than everyone else or anything.(Those are usually people who dont know chabad well and confuse them with the tzfatim or whatever) I have no problem with that(minhagim), it doesnt concern me and I love the Lubavitcher Rebbe. But when their minhagim get pushed on to everyone and try to prove everyone wrong, then it does start to concern me because I have to deal with it.
” There is unquestionably a Chabad “custom” to go around telling everyone that their menorahs are wrong for being curved”
-Its not just the Menorahs.
And you know what? Even though you claim I am ranting which is fine, all this info is out in the open on their website so you can easily see what I mean, and its just basic talk in crown heights and chabad. So im not just pointing out things that I made up.December 19, 2017 11:07 am at 11:07 am #1430032
“How do you deal with the fact that his son says the Rambam held that the branches were straight?”
I too was under the same impression (as on my earlier posts…) that that is the definitely how Rav Avrhom was learning. But the above post does have some valid points. Please refer to this page:
He is basically saying that “straight and not “b’alchson” does not pertain to the shape of the very branches, rather, it is to reject the pshat that says that the branches came up kind of like a Shabbos candelabrum / פמוטים / Leichter we have…December 19, 2017 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1430270
Gaon: Sorry, I should have been more specific. I did not mean that we actually ARE paskening from archeology. And, yes, I noticed that DY’s post was the correct form of rebuttal. What I was trying to say is that arguing against the Chabadniks by ONLY saying “they’ve now found coins etc. with round branches” is falling right into their trap.
Litvish: I don’t disagree with your points. And our experiences are very similar. Weirdly enough, I very recently saw that same Belz article you referenced and the comments (and it’s not a recent article I don’t think). The point is, if a less learned arbitrator saw this thread, they might think, “hm, those Litvaks really are antagonistic towards Chabad, and they really do attribute signifigance to the arch of Titus over the Rambam.”December 19, 2017 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1430318
@neville- lol ya you just can’t win. You stay silent you “agree” them. You say something, your ” attacking” them.December 19, 2017 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1430355
I tried saying something in my defense but mods did not allow comment to be posted.
Trying to publicly berate the gadol hador is not a defense.December 19, 2017 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1430464
@mods- thats just classic lubavitcher for you ; )
best defense-smear others, its been working wonders for them until now
we are getting tired of your constant barrage of nasty insults. If you would like to make a point, go ahead. But mind your tongue. You are doing more damage to your own cause this way.December 19, 2017 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #1430516
@mods-point taken.December 19, 2017 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #1430523
He is basically saying that “straight and not “b’alchson” does not pertain to the shape of the very branches, rather, it is to reject the pshat that says that the branches came up kind of like a Shabbos candelabrum / פמוטים / Leichter we have…
Nice.December 19, 2017 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1430536LubavitcherParticipant
Hey before I was walking a around ch and I saw so many menorahs in windows. (Which is very unusual) and guess what all of them were round and some even had 3 or 4 in the windowDecember 19, 2017 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1430542
I just thought that I’d throw out there one more question, which I may have implied but didn’t actually ask:
If the 2 Batei Mikdash had different menorahs, then clearly they are both kasher, so how can one of them be “wrong”?December 20, 2017 1:08 am at 1:08 am #1430544
@770- all of them were round and in windows! (gasp)
-So why do they make such a big deal to others to follow the straight branches? Which makes it hard to believe that “all” of them were round not just some if any. Especially when this is made such a big deal of, why would any lubavitcher specifically get a curved branch menorah. Are you implying that they follow that opinion? Maybe the fact that they were in the window meant these people werent lubavitch and therefore had curved branch menorahs lol. But hey if thats what you observed then it is what it is.
@Uber-“If the 2 Batei Mikdash had different menorahs, then clearly they are both kasher, so how can one of them be “wrong”?”
Besides noone really knows for sure how the menorah looked since those details arent clearly stated in the known Torah. For whatever reason klal Yisrael always depicted the Menorah as curved branches so it must count for something. I heard a chabad rabbi explaining the topic and one of his defense was “if they found a tefiillin in an old geniza that had 5 sections on the batim does that make it the right way?”
Honestly I’m not sure how thats the same comparison when pretty much all the Menorahs portrayed throughout the years are curved branches and practically none straight. But again the point is noone knows for sure these are all opinions. Its just that for some people their opinions are to be considered as facts and noone can view it differently.December 20, 2017 7:33 am at 7:33 am #1430568WinnieThePoohParticipant
Actually, I was just thinking of Avraham Fried’s Menorah song (yes, a Lubavacher, no less- which mentions that we made one menorah in Moshe’s time, but it was extingushed, and we made one menorah in Shlomo’s time, and that was also extinguished. The source apparently is the Yalkut Shimoni. Why does the Midrash imply that the menorah of the first Beis Hamikdash was different from Moshe’s, that there were 2?
When describing the keilim made for the beis hamikdash in Melachim Alpeh (7:49), the pasuk says Shlomo placed 5 menorahs on the right and 5 on the left- Rashi, Metzudos, Malbim explain that Moshe’s Menorah was in the middle, with 5 of Shlomo’s on either side. Do we know what these looked like, and what happened to them?
There apparently were several menorahs in Bayis Sheini- the Yevanim plundered the one made by Ezra/Nechemia, the chashmonaim replaced it, then Hordus made a new one when he did his renovations. Did all these look alike, and were they based on Moshe’s?December 20, 2017 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #1430835
Winnie – It is possible that the menorah of Moshe was destroyed/taken by Churban Shilo, like I mentioned before, and the “Menorah shel Moshe”mentioned in shas as in the bais rishon means the “real”menorah, which was lit with a chiyuv (and possibly a bracha) once/twice a day.
About the menorahs in bais sheni, there were three menorahs from the time of the chashmonaim, as we see from the gemara in Rosh haShana (I don’t have a gemara with me, but I’m pretty sure it was on :כד; I’ll try to quote it but I might be off a bit) that they first made it from Shpudim shel barzel v’chipum bbaatz (sticks of iron coated/covered with tin, which sounds like it was probably straight diagonal sticks), heashiru asau shel kesef, chazar vheeshiru asauhu shel zahav.
However, it bears keeping in mind that nothing at all about the menorah is meakev other than the number of neiros (and the amount of oil in them) unless it is made out of gold.
There may have also been another menorah made by Talmai, take a look at Josefus (right before the maisah of Chanukah).December 20, 2017 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1430883WinnieThePoohParticipant
There’s lots of speculation/myth as to where the keilim that Titus stole are today. What about all the other Menorahs?December 20, 2017 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #1430954
“then clearly they are both kasher, so how can one of them be “wrong”?”
They are indeed kosher as we do not find anyone mentioning the shape of the branches are me’akov. See Rambam below (scroll thru all Halachos in that perek) – there is no mention at all about the shape.
The issue in concern is only the fact of how it really was in the mikdash.
Although, it is still hard to understand why the Rambam did not mention in sefer haYad how it was shaped, but in case if it would be posul the Rambam would have certainly mentioned it.December 20, 2017 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1430919
Not only have you not allowed me to present my argument , but then you framed me to make as if i tried berating the gadol hador. Even my subsequent comment, explaining how the previous one wasn’t a beratement and the person i was referring to is not the gadol hador, was not posted.December 20, 2017 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1430926
Mods – can you change “(and the amount of oil in them)” in my previous post to “(and the amount of oil they hold)”? ThanksDecember 20, 2017 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1430951LubavitcherParticipant
I wld post a link from only simchas butnit prob won’t be allowed. But the Shliach in Munich u see his menorah is round and in the window.December 20, 2017 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1430967
Okay, litvishe chossid we got the point: you started this thread as a subtle way to launch a surprise attack on Chabad under the mods’ noses (or was it?)
why wasn’t this topic put under the category of “rants” (because that’s all it’s turned into) ?December 20, 2017 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1430968
Oh, and while you’re at it, I’d appreciate it if you could change “Josefus” to “Josephus”. Thanks again.December 20, 2017 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1430974
Don’t forget Tosefos there:
של ברזל. הא דקרי ליה שפודים משום שלא היו גביעים כפתורים ופרחים אלא א”כ באה זהב כדאי’ בהקומץ רבה (מנחות דף כח. ושם)
As we can see it was all a beDeavod..December 20, 2017 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1430985
Speaking about the Shpidin, The Rogatchover Gaon wants to say pshat that according to the Psikta that says it was 8 shpidin, they were really not mekayim the Mitzvah of the Menorah (as per Bais ha’Bchirah) it was just the mitzvah of Hadlakah. See the two links below. He explains that they lit the Ner haHaravi every day with a fresh shpid as the first one became Tamah being that once used it has a status of a “kli”…December 20, 2017 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1431018
Lçhorah, Titus took everything that he could get. However, take a look at the Avos D’rav Nossan about if he took the menorah. (And just because no one pointed this out yet, yes, there were eleven menorahs in bais sheni as well as bais rishon, as we see both in Yoma and Menachos).December 21, 2017 9:17 am at 9:17 am #1431246
GOAN, have you ever seen a svara for why it was covered in baatz?
(I always thought that it was because of rust, and maybe that tin rusts more slowly that iron (though it does rust as well), but lfi this Rogachover they didn’t use it for more than one day anyway)
Also, the lashon of the gemara about their monetary status is a bit funny if it is talking about tumah, as it only should have been for those 8 days (although his pshat can just be an added benefit to using the shpudim).December 21, 2017 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #1431420
l’fi this Rogachover they didn’t use it for more than one day anyway”
Uber – if you read the first link Halacha Bes – he is clearly going according to the P’sikta that states there were EIGHT shpudim, “shel Barzal”.
He is basically explaining why 8 and not 7 (like the gemarah), he “quotes” the Gemorah in A”Z (43a) saying that there was “no Menorah” at the time (it is basically the same gemorah as in R”H and I figure it is his understanding as well, that according to the answer of the gemarah רבי יוסי בר יהודה אומר אף של עץ לא יעשה כדרך שעשו בית חשמונאי אמרו לו “משם ראיה שפודין של ברזל that it is implying that it had no status of a Menorah – simply understood – it is saying that it really wasn’t “Etz” and was only חופין בבעץ from outside and metal on inside, and thus you are permitted to make a private Menorah out of wood )
So he says the 8 were for the purpose of the Ner haMarovi and each night a diff Shpud was used. As per the Gemarah there were only 7 not 8, hence there is a total diff pshat.
I need to read the other link again, and see the back and forth correspondence, perhaps the writer (who was a goan in his own) points out anything…December 21, 2017 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #1431439cherrybimParticipant
No one actually knows the shape of the original menorah nor would that shape apply to the Chanukah menoras we use. In fact, the Chanukah menorah is a relatively modern invention of convenience to keep the lights in an orderly separate group. The menorah is not required to fulfill the mitzvah of lighting Chanukah candles; wax or oil.December 21, 2017 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1431470
GOAN – Just making sure that we’re one the same page here, lfi the Rogachover they used 8 shpudim, one per day, as shpudim shel barzel are golmai cli machteches, which, like we see several times in the gemara in Shabbos, are not mekabel tumah until you are machshiv them (this lechora is a kasha on the Rogachover, as it is taloi on machshava, not maaisa), and therefore they were only mekabel tumah after whey were lit, and therefore wouldn’t be tamei.
I would have thought that in a pashut reading of the Rogachover that they only lit one ner, on one shpud, per night, which had a din of the ner maáravi, which was the only ner that they were mechuyav in, as there was no mizbayach. However, then the gemara in r”h is shver, as it is clearly talking about shpudim, and very clearly talking about something that has a din of a menorah (as otherwise there cannot be a problem of lo saásun iti) with 7 branches.
I would be tempted to say that the gemara and psikta are talking about 2 different maamarim, and have nothing to do with each other at all, except that the gemara sounds like R”Y misheard (read? before rebbi?) the mamar and thought that בעץ, baatz, tin, ment biéitz, with wood, and if there were 2 different maisim they could both be true, as the Rogachover’s Chanukah ner didn’t have a din menorah, as he points out himself, and therefore could have been made out of wood (and it couldn’t have just been one pshutei kli eitz, as it needed to have a ner; i.e. a beis kibul).
Which brings me back to my first (sorry, seventeenth) question (I’m still waiting for answers, by the way. They were all serious questions.), why were they coated in tin (unless, of course, what I just speculated is right, and we have 2 seperate maamarim here)?
(Side question (#18): l’fi the same Tos from before, how did they clean it out if it was golmei kli machteches and therefore not shel prakim?)
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