Chanuka Menorah

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  • #1426302

    icemelter
    Participant

    If the Menorah in Bais Sheini was curved branches, isnt that a more accurate way to celebrate chanukah since it occured by Bais Sheini? Or is the correct Menorah the straight branches from Bais Rishon?

    #1426329

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I wasn’t aware that the menora was different is the 2 batei mikdash, interesting. I know we have an image of the menora from Titus’ Arch, assuming that it is a depiction of The Menora, and not just any menora, And chabad holds that the menora had straight branches, V shaped. But I thought the matter is still up to debate.

    The point is not to replicate the menora of either beis hamikdash (an exact replicate is assur, actually) but to light in any vessel that fits the halachic criteria. Either menora you describe does not: the menora in the beis hamikdash had 6 side branches turning toward the middle main branch, for a total of 7. Since we light 8+1 shamash, the chanuka “menora” is obviously different.

    #1426357

    Joseph
    Participant

    You can use potatoes as a Chanukah menorah.

    #1426364

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Can you use a chanukiah for latkes?

    #1426389

    CS
    Participant

    Wtp+1 also they found in the Cairo geniza a drawing of the Rambam of the Menorah and it is diagonal

    #1426440

    icemelter
    Participant

    Since the first Menorah was by a Ness since it was made in the fire, and the second wasn’t possible to replicate as straight branches it was made curved branches. So why does chabad push the diagonal branches if the second bais was curved branches? There are images of ancient burial cave in Israel which a Menorah is carved into the wall and is curved branches which dates to times of the mishna. And many other images and info it’s on temple institute website. There was an article that chabad “fights fake menorah” meaning the one with curved branches. Why call it a take Menorah when there is so much proof otherwise including the coins minted by Mattisyahu haCohen? Surely he would’ve known how it looked. And again even if the original was straight branches, isn’t the more recent one closer to Chanukah times?

    #1427667

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    If you read what the Rambam says next to the picture (its in the Pirush HaMishnayos in Menachos, Perek Gimmel), he says that he is specifically drawing this picture only to show there the gevios and prachim were on the menorah (and not to imply that the branches were diagonal; it’s just simpler to draw, print (remember, all printing back then was done with what were essentially woodcuts), and see where they were like that).
    (It still could be that the picture was accurate in that regard, but there is no real reason to say that.)

    As far as I can tell, every single mosaic, carving, and picture of the menorah made over 500 years ago is curved, and, in addition, nowhere in Bavli or Yerushalmi, Mechilta, Sifra, or Sifri, Medresh Rabba or Tanchuma, Breisa Dassiyas Hamishcan (and every other Mesechta of Breisos that I’ve seen) does it ever say that the branches of the Menorah were straight (although several of the less meyuchasdika breisos imply that they were curved).

    I grew up hearing that it was a machlokes between the Rambam and the other Rishonim, but I’ve never seen a single Rishon (including the Rambam, although I haven’t ‘learned all of the Pirush Hamishmayos yet, nor done such a good job on the yad…) say it was curved, so I would love to know where it comes from.

    Please, if anyone knows of a mekor, please tell me of one (and while if any of the Rebbes actually said it in a shiur etc. it would help, but I want a mekor from the Rishonim or earlier, if at all possible).

    (Oh, and if anyone can tell me how to use hebrew (and apostrophes – they also aren’t working right) in here so that I can post the lashon of the Rambam, I’d appreciate it (1st time poster…) Thanks.)

    #1427704

    icemelter
    Participant

    “he says that he is specifically drawing this picture only to show there the gevios and prachim were on the menorah (and not to imply that the branches were diagonal”

    Where does it say that? Because the ones who argue that it is straight branches insist the Rambam drew it straight because that was his intent. Also didnt the Rambams son confirm that the Rambam drew it straight intentionally?
    But again even if that were the case that still does not answer my question why they dont follow the curved branches if that was how the Menorah looked in Bayis Sheini? Wasnt that the same time as the origin of Chanukah?

    #1427714

    GAON
    Participant

    Uber,

    Rabenu Avrohom Ben HaRambam in his pirush on the Torah, (Parshas Trumah) clearly says that it was like his father had drawn – NOT round…see below link (Ois 32)
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40223&st=&pgnum=399

    Also, read the following link:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=13597&st=%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%95%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%93&pgnum=140

    It covers the topic well. However, read it having in mind that the author is Lubavitch, and thus trying to prove the Rebbe correct.

    #1427806

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    Thanks for pointing out the R’ Avraham ben Harambam, you definitely can read אבל הכוונה להודיע בה מספר הגביעים וכפתורים והפרחים ומקומתם to be davka those, although I definitely would not say that the Rambam “says that the branches were straight”, at the most he implies it through a picture (even if that part of the picture was accurate.
    (It would also make more sense for the Rambam to try to make the shape of the menorah in his picture as accurate as possible, as he is trying to show where the geviim were)

    About the 2nd sefer you quoted, he says that מדברי הרמב”ם ורש”י הנ”ל ברור ועליל שקני המנורה ישרים, which, legabay the Rambam, is definitely not in his devarim, at least (from R’ Avraham ben Harambam it is, but that isn’t who he is quoting), and all that Rashi says is that it went out באלכסון, which doesn’t necessarily mean that it went in a straight diagonal line at all, just that it wasn’t flat.

    Thanks

    #1427813

    icemelter
    Participant

    So all the other sources of curved branches don’t count? Such as the minted coins by Mattisyahu, or the cave at bet shearim, or any other Jewish sources?

    #1427985

    GAON
    Participant

    Uber/Litvish:

    “So all the other sources of curved branches don’t count? ”

    They sure do – as that is how all Klal Yisrael has identified it for the past thousand years, as all the coins and many manuscripts indicate.

    Read the below link how he disputes the above psahtim and how he tries to say pshat in the words of Rabenu Avrohom:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=13597&st=%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%95%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%93&pgnum=137

    #1428077

    icemelter
    Participant

    Yes Gaon but chabad fight a holy war against those “fake Memorahs” and they even had an article on their site a few years back with that title. Why do they insist that everyone is wrong and that the only Menorah was the straight branches? It’s funny though I visited one of their yeshivas in South Beach Miami and in the renovated zal or wherever it was there was an Aron kodesh with a metal Menorah shaped gate closed over it. That menorah had curved branches and someone I know who is lubavitch from London actually pointed it out to me since we had been discussing it earlier. We both just shrugged our shoulders in confusion.
    So it’s funny how they criticize everyone when even in a chabad yeshiva they used that depiction.
    Even in 770 by the chazan amud the menorah wasn’t always diagonal branches, there are pictures showing the menorah with 90 degree angled branches until it was changed.
    Also why criticize everyones curved branch menorah and say that they are wrong and that they are using proof from a rasha who destroyed the Beis Hamikdash when we have so much other Jewish proof and it was likely used in the second Beis Hamikdash?!

    #1428163

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    Some chabad light curved menorahs like this🕎
    And some light diagonal.

    #1428164

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    I also saw the video of the one litvisher chossid is talking about with 90* angel Menorah till it was changed to the one that looks like the menorah in the BHMK. (Obvs not exact bec that has 6 branches not 8)

    #1428170

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    Rashi says “b’alochson”, diagonal. If you want to convince yourself that it could mean diagonally round- then knock yourself out. As a matter of fact, one of the indications that the Rambam held that the branches were round was that he did not say b’alochson in describing the menorah as Rashi did. But then his manuscript and drawing were publicized. Additionally, R Avraham Ben Harambam says that the branches came out of the center B’yosher-straight explaining that it is based on the drawing of his father. It is possible that the additional menorahs that Shlomo Hamelech built were round. But the Menorahs that the koihen gadol fulfilled the mitzvah with were diagonally straight.

    #1428174

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    And one of the reasons the Rebbe felt that is was important that the menorahs be depicted correctly is because it is depicted round- incorrectly on the arch of Titus. A depiction that had an image of a snake and images of avoida Zara.

    #1428175

    icemelter
    Participant

    @770- Some chabad light curved? Then why the firece holy war bashing everyones curved Menorahs? Besides Im not sure you are accurate in what you state since all the public Chabad Menorahs are diagonal with the exception of some like in D.C. where it is diagonal and then straight up. Almost looks like a curved Menora with a break in the middle, which again is hypocrititical on their behalf because if you preach one thing then stick to it.
    And regarding “the video” its not just one video there are plenty of pictures. Besides you say the new one which looks like the Beis Hamikdash, which one? Didnt we already state the diagonal as Bayis RIshon and curved Bais Sheini? And if Chanukah took place in Bais Sheini,why not follow that version of the Menorah?
    Also if the Rambam wrote a note regarding the drawing as for illustration/visual purposes only, why still attack everyone? And even if it was diagonal, most hold the second one was not and it was curved!

    #1428190

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    @litvishechossid. Plz read my posts.

    #1428191

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    And I don’t know any lubavitchers that a wage a “fierce holy war” as you describe with regards to this issue. I think you pick on the untucked shirts and straggly beards instead. And perhaps the apikorsus in doing mitzvohs for the sake of bringing moshiach closer.

    #1428194

    icemelter
    Participant

    @Put down the gun- SO your saying that Bayis Sheini they also managed to make a Menorah out of one piece of gold with diagonal branches which was impossible? Or did the Menorah from Bayis Rishon surive and they used that one?
    The snakes is another issue. Also some say it might have been images of he kruvim. But in any case we dont hold by that since we hold that the base of the Menorah was on 3 legs or something like that.

    #1428195

    icemelter
    Participant

    What about the Menorah carved into wall of Bet Shearim undergound dating to times of Bais Sheini showing it curved branches? Is that also not a Jewish source? How about the Mattisyahu coins? Also not a Jewish source? You keep ignoring these facts.

    #1428215

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    @litvichechossid. Let’s stay on the topic. I am saying that according to Rambam and most probably according to Rashi, the branches were diagonal. Also, the popularity of round branches is largely due to the arch of Titus. That’s all. Have a Freilichen Chanukah.

    #1428211

    icemelter
    Participant

    @putdownthegun- Yes I see you are great attorney in defending chabad even when they wage these “wars”. And No, it isnt the untucked shirts and straggly beards. It was a “posek”. If you dont believe me here is a link to your “heilige” chabad site whcih yes shows the views of many lubavitchers and if not, definitely influences their mindset with the propaganda they are fed through it. So I didnt coin this term they did. And if the topic ever comes up between any lubavitcher they will have the same response and attack the view of the curved branched Menorah. Just as is the case is with any other Minhag or view which doesnt fall into the “chabad way”. If the link doesnt get published check the col site or google it for Rabbis protest “false Menorahs”.

    Link removed

    #1428223

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    There needs to be the word “should” before “pick on the untucked shirts” in my previous post. GN.

    #1428222

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    @litvishechossid. I read the article. I’m not sure what your point is. The truth is, you probably don’t have a cogent point to make, so your digging up an article from a few years ago that you found on col. And see Likkutei Amarim chapter 28, 2nd page, the line that starts “zarah”. Have a good night.

    #1428235

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    The sicha where the Rebbe discussed the shape of the Menorah is printed in Likkutei Sichos Chelek 21 Parshas Terumah, Sicha Gimmel, page 164. Anyone with someone basic Jewish literacy and Yiddish language can read and understand it, instead of aimlessly posting on this forum.

    Most of the questions asked here were answered in that Sicha long ago. If you open it up, who knows? Maybe you’ll even learn something new.

    #1428238

    icemelter
    Participant

    @putdownthegun- Well,of course you’re “not sure” what my point is since you are a prime example of the brainwashed propaganda spewing lubavitcher. My “point” is, that befitting to your word twisting agenda, you tried throwing this “false Menorah” war on the “crazy meshichists” when in fact it has nothing to do with them and showed “respectable rabbonim” (in the eyes of lubavitchers).
    That particular article is from 2012 so what? There have been many other articles and talks about this subject for years later and would be on the front page of col immediately if the topic would be suggested. So lets not try to dismiss it just because this in particular was written in 2012. I suggest you look at the comments as well while your at it. The point is that this is the view of chabad regardless of col articles or not.
    And my point all along was that there are many Jewish proofs of the menorah being curved branches and even YY Jacobson(a chabad rabbi/speaker) has said that the Bayis Sheini the Menorah was curved branches.
    I also suggest you look deep into seforim teaching about bein adam lechaveiro which you guys obviously have none of by mocking the rest of the Yiddishe worlds minhagim. Also I suggest you look into your own chabad theme of “Bittul”, since you can definitely use some. I would also urge you to give some sources outside of chabad since there were many great Rabbis and seforim published throughout our years before chabad came along. Oh i forgot that would be assur since there is no Torah outside of chabad. Good Night.

    #1428263

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    And as far as I recall, Rashi, Rambam and Moshe Rabeinu lived before the Bal Hatanya, so I have to admit that there is Torah outside of Chabad.😊

    #1428261

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    I need to respond to a few accusations that were made against me. I am definitely not brainwashed. I have never ever made fun of another minhog yisroel. I don’t ever recall blaming the meshichistim for anything on this forum.The only brainwashing that I have detected so far on this thread is senseless hate.

    #1428275

    icemelter
    Participant

    You were also the first to attack me so maybe consider that before playing the victim card as is so accustomed to you guys.

    #1428289

    icemelter
    Participant

    True there are other Gedoilim but you only mention the ones who fit with your chabad views. And for the record you pointed out untucked shirts and beards which is a chabad reference to meshichistim and you tried to invalidate them as a typical chabad mindset.
    And thanks YWN mods! smh

    #1428293

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    😏

    #1428297

    sabba8
    Participant

    litvishechossid –
    I don’t think that anything minted by Matitsyohu has ever been found. On the other hand, there is a wall “painting” found in a house which existed during Bayis Sheini which has a picture of the menorah with the branches curved.

    #1428300

    sabba8
    Participant

    litvishechossid
    The same is true about Bet Shearim. The burial caves there do not predate Rabi Yehuda haNossi.

    #1428403

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    @litvishechossid. If you didn’t get it, I said you should pick on the untucked shirts and straggly beards in a sarcastic manner.And no, it’s not a coded term for meshichistim.lol.😇

    #1428475

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    And there is nothing wrong with saying that Titus’s menorah was incorrect,Haha.

    #1429041

    GAON
    Participant

    Put,
    It’s not Titus menorah, rather it is practically almost every archaeological finding, points out to be round branches. Let it be in Caro geniza, coins, 2000 year old shuls in Tiveria, Tzipori, Jerusalem, all mosaic drawings and cavings are round. and is thus consistent with how all Klal Yisrael has known it.

    I understand there are some other shitos, but deciding so based on one pshat (which can very well be debated – refer to my last link I posted) against overwhelming evidence that keeps on piling up, is absurd.

    Especially if that is against how all have known it.

    #1429076

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    “some other shitos”. namely Rashi and Rambam. You want to decide according to archeological suggestion? Alright. But one thing is definitive. The menorah that we know from Torah was diagonal. Anything else is speculative.

    #1429123

    icemelter
    Participant

    @put- what are you talking about? There were others ever heard of Rabbi Yosef Shalit ben Eliezer Riqueti in Chochmat haMishkan and Rabbi Emmanuel Ricci in Ma’aseh Choshev (more famous for his kabbalistic work Mishnat Chassidim) Ever heard of the Ibn Ezra or MagenAvraham? Check out their opinion on how the Menorah looked. You keep bringing up the Rambam since he is the only Rabbi you can “safely” talk about. I guess everyone else before and after him hated chabad even though chabad didnt even exist yet.
    How come in 770 the actual Menorah was 90 degree angled branches in the earlier years? There is a pic on col right now showing that. How come the chabad yeshiva in south beach has a round menorah gate for the aron kodesh?
    You dont even know for sure the Rambam meant it as diagonal.
    Regardless of anything why dont you stop thinking that everyone should follow your ways?
    I saw an article on col on a peace meeting between lubavitch and belz. Comments were so hateful “we will never forgive them” and ” when belz change their golden menorah on the aron kodesh to a chabad/rambam menorah then we will know there is peace. REALLY!! Why do you have this sick idea that everyone needs to “submit” to your ways in order to have peace with you. DISGUSTING! Another one commented on how the chabad rabbis kapota was all worn out and the chassidim around all had nice new bekishes, and went on to say “thats the difference between them and us”.
    Stop always comparing yourselves to everyone. THE WORLD DOESNT REVOLVE AROUND YOU!
    Everyone has minhagim, why are you being mezalel in everyone else outside of chabad? And then you wonder why people dislike you. They dislike your arrogant mindset is what they dislike. Change this mentality.
    What do you care what menorah someone is using. Dont you use menorahs without branches just a metal strip and glass cups? Was that how the menorah looked? You should use only diagonal branch menorahs cant use anything else right? Even the public chabad menorahs arent all diagonal some are diagonal then go straight up almost like a curve. So why the hypocrisy?

    #1429060

    icemelter
    Participant

    @ gaon- youre right there are different opinions but chabad doesn’t have an opinion because chabad is always right in whatever they claim. Only others have opinions.

    @putdown- ya there isn’t anything wrong with saying that Titus menorah was wrong. But after all was it tituses menorah? Last time I checked I thought it belonged to us Yidden. And besides wouldn’t Titus want to have an accurate depiction of what he stole from the Beis Hamikdash? I mean thats practically like taking over an advanced city and depicting it on an arch to look like a small village. Why would you do that? Also if the menorah was on display would artist see a difference. The only reason you can claim it still isn’t accurate is if you claim that wasn’t the actual menorah used. But again there is so much other Jewish proof and we are talking about the Bais Sheini menorah which most agree was round branch since it wasn’t even possible to make it at an angle without a miracle. Even the first Menorah is clearly stated it was a miracle when Hashem told Moshe Rabbeinu to throw it in the fire since it was difficult to make.
    The real question is why is it so difficult for you to admit there are other opinions outside of chabad and they might actually be right?

    #1429185

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    Save the anti chabad vitriol for a different thread. Calm down, take a chill and have a tea. All I am saying is that according to Rambam (and as explained by his son R Avrohom) and most probably according to Rashi, arguably the two greatest Rishonim, the menorah from Torah was diagonal. And therefore there is an insistence by lubavitcher Chassidim to portray it as such. You have a different opinion on the matter? That’s okay with me and also okay to the lubavitchers that I know.

    #1429229

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    Also, make yourself a coffee (after you finished your cup of tea), take a chelek chof aleph of likkutei sichos and study the third sicha of prashas Terumah as Sechel hayashar suggested before. You don’t even need to learn the whole sicha, just from page168 until the end. You might even enjoy it. Yes, it is a chabad source, but it’s also Torah😏😏

    #1429316

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He says “אין חולק בדבר”; what about the אבן עזרא?

    #1429318

    GAON
    Participant

    “All I am saying is that according to Rambam (and as explained by his son R Avrohom) ”

    Put,
    Instead of going around in circles, just read my earlier posts. The Rambam can be interpreted in many ways. Read the link i posted above. I will re-post it.:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=13597&st=%d7%92%d7%a8%d7%99%d7%a0%d7%95%d7%95%d7%90%d7%9c%d7%93&pgnum=131

    I am not disputing that there is something to the Shitah that it was diagonal, but given the above pshatim and the fact that almost every drawing, sculpture, mosaic engraving etc. that Klal Yisrael has had for the past two thousand years plus shows curved branches, you should rather say a different pshat in the Rambam that will support the above. see the below link for other pshatim:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=13597&st=%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%95%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%93&pgnum=137

    #1429373

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    Sorry to distract everyone from the main argument over here, but where is this assumption that there was a difference between the menorahs of bayis rishon and sheni come from?

    (It sounds like you all might be coming from the assumption that gold cannot hold its own weight when it is curved (bederech hateva), but it can if it is going at an angle. Is this what you all mean? Is it even true – either half? How thick was the menorah? (Someone with a lot of time on their hands can probably do the math from the weight of a kikar, but I don’t know if a kikar of gold weighed the same as a kikar of silver.)
    I think that you also mean that Moshe’s menorah, which was made al pi hanes, didn’t have these problems. But wouldn’t it have been taken by Churban Shilo?
    Maybe Shlomo HaMelech had the chochma to make one, as it is possible in a special way?
    Tosfos in Menachos says (in one of his pshatim) that the arms of the menorah (in Bayis Sheni) were bendable enough to spill out the oil. If so, it also shouldn’t be able to hold its own weight!?)

    Thanks.
    Sorry for derailing yourfight about Chabad 😉

    #1429374

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    Why would the Arch de Triumph (Titus’s arch) prove anything; wasn’t it made before he returned to Rome (with or without the menorah)? I always thought that the point was that the triumph (victory parade) would pass through the arch upon their return to Rome, and therefore it was made in advance (before they stole the menorah).

    Still, people would know what the menorah looked like from when the Cohanim would bring it out to show it to the am by the Yomim Tovim (like in the end of Chagiga).

    #1429378

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    Why would there be a “right” and “wrong” menorah – if it isn’t made out of gold, only the number of branches are meakev, and if it is golden, is the shape meakev? I always thought that just the prachim and geviim were.

    #1429359

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Here’s the piece GAON is referring to:

    #1429390

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    @daasyochid. See the note at the most bottom left of the page.

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