November 30, 2011 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #600912originial thinkerMember
Why is it so important to close the torah books on hanukah night to light the candles but it is so unimportant to close the torah books to join the israeli army as the maccabees didNovember 30, 2011 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #831188✡onegoal™Participant
We aren’t fighting to protect the bais hamikdash anymore.November 30, 2011 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #831189soliekMember
because they werent a secular army…November 30, 2011 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #831190justsimchaMember
They didnt join, they founded.
The very principles of each are very different!November 30, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #831192sof davarMember
I will not take sides on the issue of weather or not more Torah Jews should serve in the Israely army (at least not here). However, I would like to address your point.
The Macabees were fighting under the banner of Torah and were led by those who were solely guided by the Torah. Today’s Israely army does not seem to be guided that way nor do they profess to do so.
Again, I am not saying that I think religious people shouldn’t serve. I am merely pointing out that there is a difference between fighting for the land of Israel and fighting for the ideals of our Torah.November 30, 2011 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #831193CybershotMember
Lighting candles vs 3 years in army?
Think about ALL the circumstances of the maccabees. Then compare to the israeli army.November 30, 2011 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #831194charlie brownMember
because the israeli army is not fighting against helenism as the maccabees did. What exactly is the similarity between the maccabees and the IDF?November 30, 2011 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #831195akupermaParticipant
Remember that the equivalent of the IDF during the Hashmonean War were the Mitsyavanim, who assisted by the Greeks, were fighting the frum fanatics. We like to refer to the defeated enemies as the “Greeks” to avoid hurting the feelings of the non-Hareidi Jews, but in truth the war was against those Jews who, like the zionists, which to transform Yiddishkeit and the Jewish people into something like all the other nations of the world.November 30, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #831196BaalHaboozeParticipant
The war the Yevonim waged against the jews wasn’t to wipe us out physicsally. The Greeks had an agenda to transform the entire known world into a Hedonistic society. They didn’t want to kill jews because they were antisemitic and hated us. Aderabba, they let us live, as long as we accept their ways. They’d leave the Bais HaMikdash untouched, solely for its architechural ingenuities and majestic beauty. As long as no korbonos and spiritual rites were offered, and no traditional practices hinted to a Supreme Being. They even let us read the torah, as long as it was taught as a subject parallel to math and science.
The Maccabees felt this was worthy of waging a outright war and fighting for the Honor of Hashem. That meant closing their gemorahs. When the ruchnios aspect of the Jewish People is under siege, we must fight. When our PHISICAL aspect is thretened, as in the time of Purim, we fast and pray top Hashem.
The Israeli army, bless them, are fighting for our land and people which are under constant threat PHYSICALLY. Therefore there is no need to close the Gemorahs and, IY”H, our learning should stand as a zechus for the Israeli soldiers fighting, as it has since 1948.November 30, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #831197A Heimishe MomParticipant
A) Chanukah lighting take about 15-30 minutes, not years
B) The Macabim were not defending a secular state that happens to be populated and run by Jews. They were defending Eretz HaKidosha and the Beis Hamikdash. The were defending the Torah against Helenism and assimilation, not defending assimilation and secular Zionism/Nationalism.November 30, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #831198yitayningwutParticipant
Chanukah lighting take about 15-30 minutes, not years.
LolDecember 1, 2011 12:56 am at 12:56 am #831199HaLeiViParticipant
What exactly is the question? We light Chanuka Lecht to celebrate the Ness in which Hashem showed us His closeness. So, let’s go fight. Huh?December 1, 2011 3:06 am at 3:06 am #831200originial thinkerMember
What everyone seems to be missing in my post is the fact that ALL of our leaders went to war to defend Hashem and hte Jewish people. That includes Moshe who gave us the torah and Dovid that wrote the tehillliam. Yet both of these torah leaders were libeled or had loshen horah spoken about them to such an extent that they had to flee for their lives. In other words tzahal is just as important if not more important than lighting candles. And that was what I was getting at. And anyone that wants to state Rav Ploni says torah overrides the mitzvah of tzahal I refer sucha person to the mishneh in pirkei avot 3:15 that was written by a modiiniteDecember 1, 2011 3:11 am at 3:11 am #831201essy8Member
BaalHaBooze, great point. you can further add that on Purim when the threat WAS phyiscal, we did not make an army, but rather fasted and added to our tefillah.
i assume everyone realizes that the OP was asking this question, not as a question but as a “shtuch” to the chareidim who get exemptions?December 1, 2011 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #831202Raphael KaufmanMember
Okay, here’s another Chanukah question.
Seeing as how the Makabim Chashmonoi were holy, were moser nefesh for HaShem and Torah, were zoche to nissim nigla’im, how is it that they turned out so bad in the end? In less than 150 years, they went from “Mi laShem aylei!” to “anyone who claims to be from Beis Chashmonoi is an eved”. How did Mattisyahu Cohen Gadol have an einikel like Alexander Yanai, who would murder 50,000 talmidei chachamim, or an Aristoblus who would invite the Romans to come and help him, thereby beginning the golus that we are still in today? What happened?December 1, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #831203oot for lifeParticipant
Unfortunately the Chashmonoim went off. As Kohanim they should have turned over the malchus to Beis Dovid as soon as they could, instead kinah taiva and kavod took over. Unable to maintain their rule they invited in the Romans to help wage their battles, along with inviting in the physical power of Rome they invited in the philosophy as well, which was and is an extension of Greek philosophy.
As for as the OP’s question and subsequent point. For every thousand on the battle field there have always been a thousand davening and learning for them. So those who learn are helping. Those in the field just need to learn to be somech on the system The Ribbono Shel Olam set in place.December 1, 2011 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #831204charlie brownMember
Mosheh Rabbeinu and Dovid went to war based on a command from Hashem. When tzahal gets a navi or an urim vetumim then we can compare. Until then you’re comparing apples to oranges.
And even if they did somehow get themseves a navi…when Moshe Rabbeinu or Dovid Hamelech went to war, it was announced that anyone who had built a new house or got married etc should go home. They then announced that anyone who is afraid should go home. Chazal tell us that this refers to people who were afraid that they won’t have siyata dishmaya because they had done aveiros. In other words only tzadikim gemurim went to war.
When you find someone on that level then we can discuss your question. For the rest of us who aren’t there yet, they don’t belong on the battle field, even if tzahal had a navi directing them.
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