October 31, 2020 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1915353torahvaluesoverpartyParticipant
Whenever i hear democrats-and even never trump conservatives bash trump, its always attacks on his character (with exception for the few delusional ones who wanna somehow blame trump for covid). This baffles me. Yes, attacking his character is certainly warranted to a certain degree. Everyone agrees he is nothing close to a role model. But does this really matter considering there is so much more at stake? Donald Trump is the last line of defense between a country where we can continue growing a great economy,continue reducing unemployment and poverty levers amongst all minorities, continue standing up against israels enemy’s, continue standing up for conservative values, continue protecting the 2nd amendment, continue protecting our border from illegal thugs, continue negotiating peace in the middle east, continue appointing conservative judges, continue supporting law enforcement, continue supporting middle class tax cuts, continue supporting deregulation, continue to support fracking which is crucial for our economy, continue supporting patriotic education, continue standing up against the liberal lunacy that has overtaken this country,…..and a country where we bow to the liberal socialist ideology, where we bow to antifa, where instead of prosecuting BLM and ANTIFA thugs, we bail them out of jail, where we are deemed racists and bigots for not sharing the same views on policy as the radical left, where Biden will reenter the Paris Climate Agreement, where Biden will shut down the country due to covid-diregarding all the side effects of shutdown-and in general, a country run by Liberal Kamala Harris. So again, is Trumps character really a reason to hand control to the power-hungry Democrats? Nancy Pelosy and her cronies have worked overtime to prove that they dont give a darn about me or you. They’ve repeatedly abused their powers with the russia hoax, the impeachment hoax…. There is a reason so many rabbanim have endorsed President Trump-Despite his character. As Harav Shmuel Kamenetzky said, everyone-not just yidden, even goyim should vote for trump, and not just because what trump has done for israel and the jews, but what he has done for everyone. I dont think Rav Shmuel is unaware of Trumps character. I do think he is aware of the dangers that a radical left controlled government poses.October 31, 2020 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1915474GadolhadorahParticipant
Why must it be a binary choice? Our political system should be able to put forward leaders who are both decent human beings with no more or less character flaws than “average” as well as having the policy smarts to keep us secure and improve the lives of ALL Americans.October 31, 2020 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1915482
According to Rav Avigdor Miller ztl the answer is policyOctober 31, 2020 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1915486
Biden will work on downplayed coronavirus which will automatically improve the economy. The borders will be protected through technology rather than the wall. The second amendment is being used in polling places to intimidate voters. Biden will cut taxes for the middle class making less than $400,000. He can continue middle east peace negotiations. Trump with his corporate tax cut created the biggest deficit such that money is unavaible for coronavirus relief causing small businesses to go bankrupt. All that deregulation is not so good allowing to destroy our water and air making people sick. Conservative judges might limit liberties of Jews as well. Law Enforcement does not have the right to shoot anyone on sight. Fracking will be replaced slowly by switching to solar energy and by using electric cars and you are maybe supporting autocratic education. The rich have the money to pay their bail. Capitalism has become one sided by supporting the rich and not caring for the poor. I don’t want foreign natiions to interfere in our elections for either side.October 31, 2020 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #1915489
Read Rav Shafran’s Open Letter on his website.October 31, 2020 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #1915492ubiquitinParticipant
policy can always be undone
I have heard from most of my friends that Obama was the worst President for ISrael. Yet these same friends extoll the virtues of Trump, and how Israel is in the best position it has ever been.
Changing character is much much harder. Trump has had a corrosive effect on Americna politics, undoing it is much harder than undoing any policy that you dont like. 4 more years of this would make it almost impossible to undoOctober 31, 2020 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #19154941Participant
Jews care about the results. And the results of the Trump presidency has been good for the Jews..November 1, 2020 12:21 am at 12:21 am #19154961Participant
Biden does not have good character. He cheated through law school and plagiarized a speech during his 88 try. He’s a liar through and through. If it’s about character Biden isn’t it.November 1, 2020 12:22 am at 12:22 am #1915497
Trump only cares for himself, so there is no hakoras hatov as it was for Og who saved Lot for his own benefit in order that Avraham Avinu get killed and be able to marry Sarah.November 1, 2020 12:22 am at 12:22 am #1915505
So both character and policy are bad.November 1, 2020 12:23 am at 12:23 am #1915506torahvaluesoverpartyParticipant
Obviously in a perfect world we have a perfect candidate-trump minus trumps character. But that’s not the case so…it’s policy vs character
Wow where do I start…you don’t want foreign nations interfering in the election(no one does) but your fine with illegals voting. You claim Biden will cut taxes on those making under 400k yet all he’s said is that he’ll repeal the trump tax cut. You seem to indicate that the dems will move to implement greater border security which is patently false. What do you have against the wall?
You don’t seem to understand that replacing fracking with solar energy would take many many years while destroying jobs, our economy and our energy independence in the process. You say law enforcement doesn’t have the right to shoot anyone on sight, indicating that you believe something of that sort happened. (Your probably referring to the most recent incident where a career criminal, armed with a knife, was going after the police when they shot him.) You say guns are being used at polls to used to intimidate voters indicating you believe the 2nd amendment should be taken away as a result; instead of criminally charging those committing voter fraud. You seem to have a problem with patriotic education, celebrating how far we’ve come as a diverse nation with opportunities for minorities and all, but you have no problem with education that teaches children, essentially, to hate our flag, to hate our country. That our country is systemically racist, founded on racism, that we are all “subconsciously racist”, and that our terrible country needs to be completely torn down and rebuilt. Reb eliezer, I don’t believe for one second that you truly believe what you write. Not for one second.November 1, 2020 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1915523Avi KParticipant
While Trump’s personal life is certainly not a model technically he has not violated any of the sheva mitzvot presuming that he avoided taxes and did not evade them. The great Judge Learned Hand (yes, that was really his name) said that there is not even a patriotic duty to refrain from tax avoidance. Being nasty and aggressive might even be an advantage in dealing with rogue and semi-rogue regimes.
As has been mentioned, in a complex world the choice is often between bad and worse. It is almost never black and white. While it is, of course, no comparison, many concentration camp officers were polite and cultured. One even addressed older prisoners by the formal German “Sie”. Oskar Schindler, on the other hand, was a crook and unfaithful to his wife. That’s the way it goes sometimes.November 1, 2020 8:14 am at 8:14 am #1915556
If Character is what matters, you could not get lower the Bill Clinton who turned the White House into a harem, yet I will bet people like Reb Eliezar, Godalhatorah, Charlie Hall Etc. voted for ClintonNovember 1, 2020 8:15 am at 8:15 am #1915538mobicoParticipant
Throughout our entire history, we have done our Hishtadlus to improve our political connections in a way that benefits us. We do not, nor have ever, had the luxury of choosing “good people” whose policies do not work for us.
Having said this, however, many seem to be confused that endorsing a candidate for his whole body of work in an election means endorsing him absolutely – either as a person, or as an infallible leader. People on both (all?) sides of the political debate often seem to get personally involved to an extreme degree, the rhetoric exciting them in a way that few other things do. Neither candidate – in this election, or any other – is going to be an example of what we, as Torah-true Jews, strive to be.
IMHO it would behoove us as a community to raise awareness and address this issue. Let us save our enthusiasm for more meaningful things!November 1, 2020 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1915528Ben LeviParticipant
If we had an option where one candidate had a sterling character while another was good on policy I could understand the relevance of the question.
However we have two candidates lacking in character.
Trump brags to much, has issues with women, and stretches the truth.
Biden is a serial liar throughout his career, has documented issues with women, has seemingly, according to a series of emails whose authenticity he has not even tried to deny, been willing to sell out his country for money, and promotes policies that destroy any semblance of morality.
So we have one candidate with a terrible character and equally terrible policies backed by terrible policymakers (Sanders, Pelosi, Shumer, etcc.)
Another with a bad personal character who has good policies.
Whats the question?November 1, 2020 11:24 am at 11:24 am #1915600
A person who fires his best advisors who don’t agree with him because he thinks he knows everything better than anyone else is bound to falter.November 1, 2020 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1915601smerelParticipant
The question of why do frum people support Trump with all his faults is hardly unique to the frum world. It is true of most non-Islamic religious groups
It’s not because anyone has illusions that he is some sort of saint. The reason they want him re-elected is that he is from the few things preventing the US from turning into quasi-socialist, anti-personal freedom, anti-religious, and even more anti-non-minority country.
Much as Trump makes fun of and insults politicians he disagrees with, he NEVER starts up with religious people, leaders, practice or belief. He also never tries to control the life of John Doe in the street who is looking to live his own life and mind his own business.
I live in the NYS area and work in NYC. Every time I turn around I read about the politicians competing to make more laws, more bans, more fees, more harassment of the working class who are not on entitlement programs and lower the quality of life.
With the exception, of course, made for illegal immigrants, criminals and LGBTs who receive obsessive government focus and concern.
And when it comes to religion and morals… To put it this way. It is a much bigger deal in the Democrat party that the governor of Virginia allegedly wore black face thirty years ago than his current support of infanticide.
Yes it would be wonderful if Trump had the personality of Ronald Reagan or even Obama. But Obama’s efforts to force Catholic employers to go against their religion providing certain employee benefits is a lot more of threat to freedom of religion than Trump’s personal failings.
Trump’s moral failings are personal. He makes no effort to force them on anyone else. The issues the frum world has with the Democrats are issues of ideology that the Democrats are actively looking to force on others.
What is Trump’s view on closing down shuls and Yeshiva in an ostensible effort to stop the spread the Covid and what are the Democrats views? Who is sending inspectors to fine CLOSED Yeshiva and Jewish (but of course not non-Jewish )owned businesses in the Red Zones.
That is why frum people vote TrumpNovember 1, 2020 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1915602rationalParticipant
If it were character, the United States would not have had a fraction of the great statemen that made it what it is. Same with Israel and probably every other democracy. Read about Benjamin Franklin as a good example.November 1, 2020 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1915605
Wasn’t it said that the Germans were the politest people on earth
Where did that leave themNovember 1, 2020 11:29 am at 11:29 am #1915607GadolhadorahParticipant
Ben Levi: Other than having reversed the “character traits” of the two candidates, I’d agree with you
Avi K: So we should vote for the Trumpkopf because he has not been found to have done any of the following:
Not to worship idols. (He clearly does, especially those of himself. Never have we had such self-idolatry and adulation).
Not to curse God. (He has been doing it routinely in private meetings and his obsceneities have even crept into his MAGA rallies)
To establish courts of justice. (Hundreds of former U.S. attorneys from BOTH parties have expressed disgust with Trump’s interference with DOJ for political purposes)
Not to commit murder (Well, here I’ll cut him some slack since he never really did stand on Fifth Avenue and shoot someone but if his Covid policies persist, thousands will die unnecessarily)
Not to commit adultery, bestiality, or sexual immorality (There is clear documentation as to the first and the third; unless the Russians have something on tape, I’ll give him a pass on the second)
Not to steal.(Well, some of us would consider having his mar aLago club in Florida charging the government employees who travel with $678/night for a room while he takes his weekend golf vacations mamash g’navah. Some might also question his paying $750/year in federal taxes as stealing from the rest of us who have to make up the difference, Justice Hand’s holding notwithstanding).
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal (Clearly NOT Guilty on this count since the WH chef has made clear that his Big Macs must be cooked well, well, done).
Just to be clear, I’m not suggesting that JB is one of the lamud vov tzadikim either but he pales in comparison to the incumbent.November 1, 2020 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1915627
The Baal Akeda includes in idol worship the worship of money which certainly Trump is guilty of.November 1, 2020 11:55 am at 11:55 am #1915626
GH- i confess i only read three lines into your post but need to say there was never a more self serving (money and otherwise) human being in the role of president than clintonNovember 1, 2020 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1915635DovidBTParticipant
Whenever i hear democrats-and even never trump conservatives bash trump, its always attacks on his character (with exception for the few delusional ones who wanna somehow blame trump for covid). This baffles me.
They’ve been attacking President Trump since the 2016 election, using any means available. They don’t use logic, because they have no logical arguments.November 1, 2020 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #1915648
The fact is that Trump releases peoples animal instincts as the cat and mouse mashel. A cat was taught by a king’s minister to eat with a knife and fork. At the test a mouse showed up and the cat forgot all its teachings and went after the mouse following its natural animal instincts.November 1, 2020 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1915651
We forgive Clinton’s faults because of the great economy he created but what has Trump done to America besides the deficit and division?November 1, 2020 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #1915662
All I know, even If Biden’s character is better, which it isn’t. How could a sitting Senator do Abuse on a Young Girl working in his office?
But I digress.
Biden will open up the Borders. Just like France.
Very soon France will be taken over by the Islamofascists.
The US will be next in line.
But keep voting for More Far Left Politicians!
I know – Biden isn’t Far Left.
He has got you Fooled!
Then how come he took Harris as a Running Mate?!?November 1, 2020 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #1915676
You forgive clintons faults? What kind of a torah yid are you? I am finding it so hard to read your posts without feeling embarrassed for you. Please, take a day off and chazer something you are learningNovember 1, 2020 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1915679
@Reb E, the GNP grew in 2017,18 and 19 much more then in Bill Clintons days. As far as the Jews he was much better the Clinton ever was.November 1, 2020 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1915687yytzParticipant
As suggested by one of the above posters’ names, our goal as Yidden should be to spread Torah values in society, rather than to promote a certain candidate or policy.
Due to the fact that there are disputes about what the facts are in nearly every area, it is up to each individual to do their hishtadlus in figuring out what version of the facts are most correct. It is also somewhat a matter of debate how Torah laws and values should be translated into actual policy, and which policies are most important. This is also a very individual decision.
Personally, I agree with Trump on a few issues (Israel, social issues, courts), and with Biden on others (criminal justice reform, taxes, health care, environment, public health). I also think Trump is an unstable person with severe personality disorders who is incapable of empathy or dispassionately analyzing facts.
While the issues Trump is good on are important to me, I think the issues Biden is good on are more likely to change in the near future, and affect a larger number of people.
For example, the US is the most punitive country in the world, with the world’s highest percentage of incarcerated people. Some countries in Europe have 1/20th our incarceration rate! It is not necessary to be so brutal. In fact, Torah criminal law has almost no provisions for prison at at all! As Rav Hirsch writes, prison is inherently dehumanizing, and this is why the Torah prescribes other means (like having a thief be a servant for an honest family for a few years, to learn proper behavior.) Other ways of dealing with and preventing crime are far more consistent with the Torah. Trump has done some things to reduce incarceration but the Democrats are for more committed to this issue. Remember that many Jews, including some frum Jews, are victims of our incredible harsh criminal justice system (Rubashkin is just the tip of the iceberg.)
I would prefer not to vote at all, but due to this factor, and Trump’s dangerous personality, I lean toward Biden.
As for social issues, aside from appointing conservative judges to courts, there is relatively little the government can do, when a huge proportion of the country and most of the media have views that are diametrically opposed to the Torah. It would be nice to one day have a president with Torah-compatible values who actually inspires people to adopt these views, rather than someone like Trump who doesn’t seem to care about these values and certainly violates them in his personal life, and alienates everyone but his most hard-core supporters. But regardless of who is president, activism, media, kiruv, and other non-governmental methods of changing pubic opinion are ultimately necessary to guide society on these matters, and are just as important (perhaps more so) than who is president.November 1, 2020 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1915690
President Clinton created close to 23 million jobs whereas Trump is now in the negative for neglecting the corinavirus. By advocating herd immunity, he is contributing to people dying. Syag lechochma is shtika, If I were you, I would be silent. Feel enbarrassed for yourself. I justified my views about publicizing bad behavior making it lehachis and be proud of it, bringing out our worst instincts.November 1, 2020 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1915696
If you were me you’d be silent? Great! Be me!November 1, 2020 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1915699
If you can forgive someone who commits adultery under his desk in the oval office while on the phone with a world leader just because of money, than you are not much of a role model of shomrei torah umitzvos and certainly you should daven your children never hear such a thing.November 1, 2020 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1915701
Maybe people who are for Trump should elect a robot next time who also has no empathy and no feelings and can institute good policies.November 1, 2020 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1915729Ben LeviParticipant
it’s interesting how you think anti-lockdown policies contribute to poverty.
The WHO actually thinks lockdowns are the cuase of poverty so we have Reb Eliezer vs the WHO.November 1, 2020 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1915730besalelParticipant
Achashverosh had a lousy personality but his policy was good for the jews. If the story of purim happened in some enlightened western town instead of shushan there would have been a loud cry from certain segments of the jewish population to reject the assistance of such a flawed character.November 1, 2020 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1915737
One doctor said that if one is quarantined should be paid by the government for his/her salary but we should avoid lockdowns by proper social distancing, mask wearing and hand washing,November 1, 2020 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1915740
besalel, see what I wrote why Trump should be winning at https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/trump-winningNovember 1, 2020 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1915743
Syag, when it comes to Trump, the playboy, I would not talk about adultery.November 1, 2020 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1915745Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
I wonder whether any of you guys are voting for a party that they voted most of the times before?
If yes, most likely you are not really debating a topic, but simply bringing a foreign culture of politicking here. This is obvious bitul Torah, as anyone can simply load corresponding website and find out about Trump’s taxes and Biden’s cash from the horses’ mouths.
Why don’t we try – together – establish some high-level non-partisan Torah principles on voting.
I’ll bring one example I read about that shows how non-trivial things are (my imperfect recollection from reading): some time in the 60s, a group of college students considered starting a campaign for Soviet Jewry. They approach R Feinstein, Lubavitcher R, R Teistz. All 3 were against open anti-Soviet activities, in part due to preferences for quiet activities and in part fearing what Soviets could do to these youngsters. R Soloveichik said that he will first consult Israeli government. He came back and said that he is not going to pasken, but he advises against. Students did study the campaign, and a couple of years later, one of them asked R Soloveichik why he is not repeating his negative position to them. Rav responded that he changed his position, explaining:
I asked the politicians that I consulted: what is best policy for Soviet Jews. They responded – to keep quiet. I later realized that they lied to me. They told me what is best for Israelis (as they tried to negotiate with Soviets), but not what is best for Soviet Jews.November 1, 2020 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1915747
Yytz -“I also think Trump is an unstable person with severe personality disorders who is incapable of empathy or dispassionately analyzing facts.”
So you think Biden is better? There are docs who think he’s senile.
He definitely has some Mental Disorder, EG. He said – I’m running for Senator or VP because Harris is running for Pres.
“prison is inherently dehumanizing, and this is why the Torah prescribes other means”
Right you are! This Country should stop Locking Criminals up.
They should do what the Torah says to do – Kill the Criminals!November 1, 2020 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1915782
@Reb E, do us all a favor and cease quoting torah, anyone who can defend Bill Clinton actions in the White House is not worthy of discussing dvar torah with.November 1, 2020 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1915785
*I* shouldn’t talk about adultry? I don’t forgive people who commit adultry no matter who they are or how good their economicscare. You do. You just said it yourself. I may vote for trump anyway but i don’t forgive those behaviors like you just did.November 1, 2020 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1915794
common saychal, use your saychal. Violating shabbos in public is worse being lehachis but doing it hidden is done letaovan. Trump is publicizing his own bad behavior which is lehachis whereas Clinton did it hidden publicized from the outside, doing it letaovan which can be forgiven. Lehachis is on purpose, to upset the authority whereas letaovan is an attraction or desire.November 1, 2020 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1915798
@Reb E, I no longer read anything you say from a torah prospective, anyone who can justify what Bill Clinton did has ZERO credibility to say anything from a torah point of view.November 1, 2020 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1915820
RE – From Before – “How could a sitting Senator do Abuse on a Young Girl working in his office?”
So this is Letavone.
And This – Holding back money from Ukraine till they fired that Prosecutor.
And This – Taking 10 Million from Commy China.
And after all this – you are Pro Biden just because it’s Letavone, and Not Lehachas?!?
Maybe you got to Learn some Musser?
I Mean Gay Marriage, Violent Protests & Defunding Cops, etc., just some of the things that the Left are for.
But Biden is Better than Trump?!?
Maybe you got to Learn some Musser?November 1, 2020 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1915858yytzParticipant
Health: Both Trump and Biden have their senior moments. Did you see the study showing that Trump’s vocabulary has shrunk in recent years, a likely sign of age-related cognitive decline?
Regarding the death penalty, the Torah does not provide for it, for the crimes committed by 95% of the prison population. The vast majority of those in prison are not murderers.
Executing someone for drug possession, gun possession, burglary, assault, robbery, fraud, etc.–that is, the kind of crimes most prisoners have committed– would not be possible under Torah law.November 2, 2020 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1916018
The question of whether character trumps policy or not wouldn’t be said if pence was president (or at least running) however I bet you those same people who are not going to vote for Trump wouldn’t vote for pence for some other made up reason (and the true answer is that it’s because he’s a republican)November 2, 2020 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #1916053Slimshim1Participant
It’s ironic how these current parshiyos are about this red man who was void of every positive attribute except for Kibud Av. He tried to look like a tzaadik, and according to many seforim fooled Yitzchok. In truth he was entirely self serving and steeped in gashmiyus. He became the one who bore amalek and haman and quite possibly the nazi’s and white supremicists.
Well my friends. Sound familiar? There is a message for us. Trump is the Esav. We are supposed to be the Yaakov that can see past this, but it appears that we (and gedolim) are blind and being fooled yibadel like he fooled Yitzchak.
The only difference I can see is that this evil man is orange, not red.November 2, 2020 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1916136
@Slimshim, how exact same post in 3 different topic, a all new recordNovember 2, 2020 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1916145
Shlimshim -“Well my friends. Sound familiar? There is a message for us. Trump is the Esav. We are supposed to be the Yaakov that can see past this,
The only difference I can see is that this evil man is orange, not red.”
Another Lib using the Torah to promote Biden.
What does the Torah say about Gay Marriage, Violent Protests & Defunding Cops, etc., that Guys like Biden are For?!?
Btw, I’ll tell you about the Parsha that promotes Trump.
Aelu Toldos Avrohom – Avrohom Hoylid Es Yitzchok.
The main thing a person does is what comes Out of Him.
Biden produced Hunter, a drug abuser and Partners with Commy China.
Trump has a Frum Jewish daughter & Frum Jewish Grandkids!
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