March 19, 2013 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #608675herzlismoshiachMember
what is the whole uproar about chareidim doing national service?!
would it be such a bad thing to contribute to society, as opposed to sitting in a nice airconditioned building, sipping coffee, whilst chilonim are not sleeping and train hard, both physically and psychologically and live uncomfortably in battlefields, sometimes giving up their lives, to do a service to klal yisrael.
when are the gedolim going to stand up and show hakoros hatov for this. if they arnt going in the army, at least support those that do and not label them as reshoim.
its a disgrace, and there should be a beis din that decides who goes to the army and who doesnt, and every bochur must present their case.
do whats right not whats easy, and learning all day is very easy.
viva israelMarch 19, 2013 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #939209yichusdikParticipant
While I believe that opposition to National Service if IDF is not palatable is wrong, I’d not make the blanket statement that “learning all day is very easy.” That is a provocation, and even though I disagree with the rejection of “share the burden”, I recognize that it isn’t an easy life that kollel learners choose.
Herzl was many things. A unifying, national/religious/military/social leader of a nation such as a Moshiach will be is well beyond his limitations.
There’s enough vikuach here. no need to add to it.March 19, 2013 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #939210gavra_at_workParticipant
Troll.March 19, 2013 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #939211
Most chareidim already do ‘national service’ in one form or another – we just call it chessed. Local neighborhood directories are filled with gemachim and chessed organizations, many of which are quite time consuming, and the government doesn’t pay a cent for it.
The concern is not about helping out. The concern is the secular government telling us when, what, how, and with whom.
At the founding of the state there was a deal made between b-gurion sr”y and the Chazon Ish Zt”l. They are breaking the deal.March 19, 2013 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #939212
The Chazon Ish made a deal about the draft, I dont think he made a deal about Welfare BenefitsMarch 19, 2013 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #939213
What welfare benefits? Please explain what you have in mind because as far as I know there are no special welfare benefits for chareidim.March 19, 2013 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #939214writersoulParticipant
But if they’re doing chessed anyway, what’s so bad about doing it because the government says? It’s a combination of chessed and dina d’malchusa dina, no? Or is it only real chessed when you do it for the people you want/like?March 19, 2013 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #939215rkefratParticipant
Of course the Chazon Ish made a deal. That was then when the exemptions numbered in the 100’s. Today, it is estimated that 7000 Chareidim will turn 18 this year. Had the numbers been the same then as they are now, no way Ben Gurion makes this deal. It is time for the non full time learners to join – whether in Hesder or in a Nachal Chareidi unit.March 19, 2013 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #939216rabbiofberlinParticipant
I wish that what Israeli chareidi writes is true. It is not. Chessed organizations do indeed have volunteers but most have paid staff. The vasy majority of chsreidim have little to do with these organizations.March 19, 2013 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #939217
There is a Welfare Stipend of several thousand NIS per month (The exact amount is debaed anywhere from 2000-8000 NIS per month depending on who you ask)March 19, 2013 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #939218
So after 2 hours in a kitchen volunteering for Ezer Mitziyon you’d need to go to the hospital and smile to all the Arab mothers in the maternity ward because the government says so.
And if the Chazon Ish would have known that the state would rip up the agreement because it’s unconstitutional (not because it’s to many people) would he have made the agreement?
Do you think the soldiers don’t get paid? Do you think that someone doing national service doesn’t get a government stipend? You better believe they do. And it’s much more than the 340 NIS we saw advertised in this last election – especially when they are married with children. And the chessed organizations? The majority of the workers tend to be volunteers. Most of the paid employees are those that are unable to work a regular job because of the time required for the organization. And you can bet they don’t get union rates.March 19, 2013 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #939219
What is this welfare called?
How come nobody I know has ever heard of it?March 19, 2013 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #939220rkefratParticipant
Israeli Chareidi – not to belabor the point – but they got 60 years out of this agreement. If the Chazon Ish knew he would get 60 years – I think that he takes the deal. Anyway, 1800 exemptions per year are being given – about 25% of the total chareidi eligible – how many of the 7000 do you think are really learning fulltime anyway? And if you arent learning fulltime and protecting Yidden spiritually, why not help to protect them physically?March 19, 2013 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #939221yk91Member
i do think people should take his points in to consideration though(herzlismoshiach)
Chilonim are giving up their lives fighting for us, chareidim are hardly. Obviously learning is more important however anyone who is not learning properly should go to the army and we need a process for this. There is no reason why just because your charedi you shouldn’t do national serviceMarch 19, 2013 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #939223rabbiofberlinParticipant
israeli chareidi- i don’t undersatand your point. I sadi that the vast majority of chareidim are not invloved in any organized chessed and the ones who are are paid. With national service, you have more manpower.March 19, 2013 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #939224
What do you call the money the government gives you, Its called Welfare in the US. Maybe you have a different word for itMarch 20, 2013 1:56 am at 1:56 am #939225The Kanoi Next DoorMember
Would it be such a bad thing to contribute to society, as opposed to sitting in a nice airconditioned building, sipping coffee, and doing nothing besides trying to get people worked up?March 20, 2013 2:10 am at 2:10 am #939226akupermaParticipant
If Ben Gurion offered a 60 year draft exemption (i.e. yeshivas allowed for 60 years, then no longer) – the Hareidim would probably have supported the plan to make Palestine into an American Trust Territory. Any significant Jewish opposition to independence would have tilted the balance. American policy is to leave self-contained peaceful religious minorities alone.
Note that the zionists aren’t discussing defunding yeshivos, but of seizing the students and their money, and seizing money raised in America so it can’t be used to support students learning Torah. Even the British and Muslims never did that. So this means Lapid and Bennett are more in a class with the Crusaders and Romans as enemies of Torah.March 20, 2013 11:12 am at 11:12 am #939227
As I understand it, welfare is a government subsidy for those who have no job.
The money that avreichim get (recently downgraded to 720 NIS (less than $200) monthly for Israeli’s – less for Americans) is a stipend given to all avreichim regardless of other income and family size.
The property tax discount is municipal and has nothing to do with the government.
There is a small additional subsidy for large families with no car or job that adds up to approximately 1300 NIS (around $350), but it is very difficult to qualify for and I don’t know many people who do. It is also extremely unreliable and changes often.March 20, 2013 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #939228ifti99Member
akuperma: “Note that the zionists aren’t discussing defunding yeshivos, but of seizing the students and their money, and seizing money raised in America so it can’t be used to support students learning Torah. Even the British and Muslims never did that. So this means Lapid and Bennett are more in a class with the Crusaders and Romans as enemies of Torah.”
Are you kidding or just delusional? Show me exactly where the Israeli govt is proposing seizing money raised in America. I want to see the EXACT language that describes this. Also, using comparisons of murderers like Romans and Crusaders to describe your fellow Jews is rather disgusting. It certainly adds to sinas chinam!March 21, 2013 4:44 am at 4:44 am #939229mddMember
Israeli Chareidi, if the government withdrew all the money the Chareidim get: funding to Yeshivos, subsidies to the poor etc., would the Chareidim be able to stay in learning? And I know, I know — some of those things are open to all Israelis, but, frankly, those other Israelis also do their duties as citizens. And I know — learning is a very great zechus, unfortunately the non-Chareidim don’t want to support all the Chareidim in learning anymore.March 21, 2013 7:58 am at 7:58 am #939230
Of course they don’t want to support learning – they never did. But the zchus of the Chazon Ish has enabled them to support it anyway for the last 65 years.
Those that feel they are able to do without the government’s already shrunken pittance will continue to learn. Those that feel they cannot will not. But the biggest losers in this deal will be the chilonim who have had the zchus of supporting torah all this time and now all they will have going for them is supporting the professors at hebrew university and the sports teams and arts and theaters and free abortions for the army.March 21, 2013 11:50 am at 11:50 am #939231
As I understand it, welfare is a government subsidy for those who have no job.
I think we have a misunderstanding of the words then.
A stipend for learning (Or any other reason) from the government would be called Welfare or a handout here in the USMarch 21, 2013 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #939232nishtdayngesheftParticipant
Unless of course they were studying basket weaving or racial studies in a university, then you would of course call it a fellowship and marvel how educated and laudatory these people are.March 21, 2013 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #939233akupermaParticipant
zahavasdad who wrote “A stipend for learning (Or any other reason) from the government would be called Welfare or a handout here in the US “
Actually it isn’t. Pell Grants and other forms of scholarships to attend academic institutions are not considered to be a form of welfare. Once the student gets beyond a certain point (typically by graduate school), stipends given to students if they do more than cover the cost of tuition (tuition waiver) and basic room and board, are considered income and are taxable in many cases (and if not taxable, only because specific rules were issued to protect them from taxation). The Israelis don’t considerd teachers in yeshivos to be the equivalent of university teachers or fellows since they would have to draft them. If in fact, if anyone receiving money (often from private donations raised abroad) beyond the cost of tuition and room and board in return for being a “Ben Yeshiva” were considered employed, unemployment in the frum community would be minimal. That is why the people in Bnei Brak and Jerusalem don’t act as if they were in a city with a high unemployment rate – if fact they have a low unemployment rate.
While in the United States “welfare” is what is given to the desperately poor, in most western countries “welfare” is when the government covers basic needs such as housing, living costs and medical care from the public treasury for all persons regardless of need. In the US, programs that are need-based such as Medicare or Social Security or subsidized tuition at public schools are NOT considered to be welfare, though in Europe the equivalent programs are considered part of the “welfare state.”
The real issue in Israel is that the ruling class wants Israel to be what to them is the “zionists” – meaning free of the yoke of Torah that they came to Israel to escape — and the hareidim are very publicly destroying their zionist dream. It’s not about employment or welfare or even serving in the army and schechting Arabs.March 21, 2013 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #939234
Fellowships are private money not government money
And they just dont give it to you, you have to apply and fill out tons of paperwork to show why you deserve the moneyMarch 21, 2013 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #939235mddMember
Nishtdayngwsheft, to be fair, they are going to patur 1,800 talmidim each year. Plus, nobody here would sponsor tens of thousands adults to learn(le’havdil) basket weaving or racial studies or anything for that matter.March 21, 2013 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #939236
There is plenty of paperwork to fill out in order to get anything here. And even then you sometimes need to do it all over again. Just ask any yeshiva administrator.March 21, 2013 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #939237screwdriverdelightParticipant
herzlismoshiach-herzl was an apikorus. (Saying falsely that someone is moshiach might also be–I think that’s what Rav shach may have said?)
“would it be such a bad thing to contribute to society”–the gemarah says someone who says mai ahani lan rabanan (what do talmidei chachamim do for us) is an apikorus.
And all those who argued w/ you and failed to point this out, was, nizrikah bum ruach apikorsus.
Go back to darwinism, shekitz.March 21, 2013 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #939238gavra_at_workParticipant
Oxymoronic screen name for Internet use:
You made me smile 🙂
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.