Chasidish-Litvish Intermarriage

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  • #598308

    Chein
    Member

    If a Chosid marries a Litvak are the children Chasidish or Litvish?

    And must one wear a lange rekel to be classified as a Chosid?

    #1043890

    MichaelC
    Member

    Rabbi Moshe Feinstein in Igros Moshe says if a Litvak man marries a Chassidishe women–he has the final word on certain things.

    #1043891

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Perhaps this thread title should be changed intermarriage means something quite different.

    #1043894

    Chein
    Member

    MichaelC: Isn’t that the case whichever way? The minhagim go according to the husband, and halachicly the wife adopts her husbands minhagim.

    #1043895

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Yeah, it’s a big problem these days. So many people lost to this intermarriage.

    #1043896

    Englishman
    Member

    Who loses them? The Litvaks or the Chasidim?

    #1043897

    quark2
    Member

    To me, a chassid is something in the heart and soul. I really don’t know what the “lange rekel” has to do with it. I guess you are signifying to others that you ascribe to the philosophy?

    Or, one element of chassidus is the “am hashem”. Chassidus attempts to make jews into a distinct nation, with a distinct language, and mode of dress. Therefore they wear the “lange rekel”. They don’t seem to care to much about a distinct land though, generally speaking.

    Whatever the case, i still beleive that chassidus is a philosophy, and a way of life. I don’t attach much importance to the “levush”, but its a nice detail, IMO.

    #1043898

    kapusta
    Participant

    I really don’t like the title of this thread. Can a mod please change it?

    Thank you.

    *kapusta*

    #1043899

    Hacham
    Member

    Intermarriage does not necessarily mean different religions. It is a generic term:

    1.

    marriage between members of different groups.

    2.

    marriage between a man and woman of different social classes.

    #1043900

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Nobody loses. If they raise a family of shomrei torah umiyzvos, the ribbono shel olam wins.

    #1043901

    IUseBrains
    Participant

    Rabbosai, we MUST “Intermarry”.

    There is a shortage of girls among chassidim and a shortage of boys among litvaks!!!!

    #1043902

    just me
    Participant

    THIS IS AWFUL! When 2 Jews of different minhagim marry, it is called 2 JEWS MARRYING! Not intermarraige! We just lost so many gedolim. We saw how all kinds of Yidden came together to look for a lost child. WAKE UP ALL OF YOU! If you want Moshiach and you want to bring nachas to your Father In Heaven, lets see things that bring people together b’simcha not this kind of divisive talk.

    It is disgusting!

    #1043903

    gefen
    Participant

    Chassitvish

    #1043904

    BP is already full of “Chasidvishe” families, as you can see on Shabbos: the husband in a streimel, the wife with a langeh shaitel. Personally, I think it’s beautiful because the distinctions between the groups seem to be diminishing. “Achdus, together we will stand, until we reach the holy land…” (and we hope, in the holy land as well!) 🙂

    #1043905

    just me
    Participant

    Hacham, that may be the literal meaning but the word intermarriage connotes something else.

    #1043906

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    IUse, I never heard about that. Are you sure?

    #1043907

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Hacham. If I called you a Nazi, would you be insulted or would you shrug it off and say well, technically, I’m not a member of that political party.

    #1043908

    shlishi
    Member

    ursula: A langeh shaitel is far from a sign of someone being a Litvak.

    #1043909

    Hacham
    Member

    Marriage amongst the Shevatim is referred to as intermarriage in the Torah. (Its mentioned it was a Simcha when the Shevatim were allowed to again intermarry with Shevet Binyomin.)

    #1043910

    shlishi: maybe a langeh shaitel is not a sure sign of being a litvak, but pillbox hats with a fake hair fringe, or a white band over the bob shaitel on Shabbos are serious parts of the female chassidishe levush. Granted, a woman can be chassidish and not wear those things, but very few litvishe women (aside from those who just don’t know the appropriate headgear for each group) would wear them. However, when a woman is wearing on her head only a longish shaitel, you can’t tell just by looking whether she is litvish or chassidish. So, it seems the lines are blurring.

    #1043911

    One can wear a short or 3/4 rekel(jacket) and be considered Chassidish. If you are not familiar of real Chassidic clothing for men take a tour of such as G&G or G&B clothing for men who are Chassidic in levush and behavior. Unfortunately there is a new group who consider themselves Chassidic but they are modern Chassidic and we will not get into that Ervev 9 days. Many women who consider themselves Chassidic are not examples to follow because they want to be trendy and dance on two weddings. These women do not look Chassidic nor Litvish but modern who follow the styles dictated by the lowest of Paris. Unfortunately, some so called frum companies adapt to the styles but in my opinion it is as the store that was selling pig meat with a hechsher!! For a woman Tznius is most important as learning Torah for a man.

    We grew up in a real Chassidic home with our father Z”L who wore a rekel and hat even around the house. Anyway, one of us married a real Litvish boy and he is ehrlich, frum and the family Rav. My sister follows all his minhagim and it was never an issue. When someone once commented to her that she can wear so and so because she is Litvish she answered that’s modern!

    Yes, in the beginning it was hard but B”H she adjusted and even davens Ashkenaz. When someone commented that all sons in law were different, she commented “one takes The Bochur not a Bochur”.

    #1043912

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The simcha was in that they made shalom.

    #1043913

    DovidM
    Member

    Although the Minhagim of the husband might be followed, the mother’s father can have a big influence on the chinuch of the children.

    #1043914

    msseeker
    Member

    Ms. Critique, agreed. A chassidishe teacher was asked by her student why “Litvishe meigen alles”. The teacher put her lesson aside and gave a long answer, saying, among other things, “One thing I can tell you, girls. The Vilna Gaon’s rebitzin did NOT wear a denim skirt with a red T-shirt.”

    #1043915

    Hacham
    Member

    How frequent are Litvish-Chasidish/Heimish marriages?

    #1043916

    apushatayid
    Participant

    My gradfather, a born and bred litvak (came to america prior to WWI in his early 20s with nothing but his Litvish minhagim – succa on shmini atzeres, tefilin on chol hamoed, ate gebrokhts, no kittel by the seder, had no “shin” in his alphabet) took 4 sons in law who were all from chassidishe families – when asked about it by us grandchildren many years later (in the 70s) he replied, back then, the only considerations for a shidduch were, was he a mench and was he shomer torah umitzvos. It didnt matter if he wore a bekkesha or a zoot soot).

    #1043917

    bpt
    Participant

    “A langeh shaitel is far from a sign of someone being a Litvak.”

    Yeah, and “Chasidvishe” is not the phrase that comes to mind either (the word I was thinking cannot be posted in the CR)

    And I agree, the word “intermarraige” is mis-applied

    #1043918

    ronrsr
    Member

    Apushata, your grandfather was so right.

    #1043919

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Does there have to be a “hard and fast” rule about whose minhagim to observe?

    Let me ask this question: If I can, on my own, choose to become a Chosid (Belz, Satmar, Lubavitch, Breslov, whatever…), then why can’t an “intermarried” couple make that decision on their own?

    Likewise, if a Chossid can “leave” his chassidus and join the Yeshivish community on his own, then why can’t an “intermarried” couple decide to do so on their own?

    The Wolf

    #1043920

    shlishi
    Member

    A person is not supposed to change his minhagim.

    #1043921

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    I am a Yekke who just found out that my family is actually Sephardic. My wife’s family is Satmar but she follows Breslov philosophy. She follows what I follow when it comes to Minhag and yes, I asked if I needed to”revert” to my Sephardic roots and was told no by two big poskim. So there you go…

    Here’s the thing. My best friends are Gerim who follow Lubavitch and an Ashkenazi who was mekareiv Eidat HaMizrach. Who cares? We are all Jews. Wives follow their husbands and everyone is happy.

    #1043922

    shlishi
    Member

    Yehuda Tzvi: You mentioned in another thread that your great great grandfather was from Lithuania and you only know that you have Sefardic blood due to a DNA test. Mere DNA results are certainly no reason to change one’s minhagim in any event.

    BTW, how are you Yekke if you shtam from Lithuania?

    #1043923

    apushatayid
    Participant

    That was the yekkeshe part of lita.

    #1043924

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    I am Baal Teshuva and my father’s fathers died when my father was very young. My father had no idea where his father was from. I therefore took on my Mother’s family minhagim.

    Of course we don’t change minhagim due to DNA testing. The idea is to show that minhagim change and people move around. If not, how could the entire Chasidische velt take on Nusach Sefard?

    #1043925

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    Oh and before apushatayid can snark off another obnoxious comment. We found a distant cousin who had a family tree showing that my recent paternal family lived in Lithuania. Again, I ashed a sheila and was tol,d not to change from the German Minhagim I hold.

    #1043926

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “BTW, how are you Yekke if you shtam from Lithuania?”

    Why does this bother you? I know Sephardim from England and Satmar chassidim from Uruguay. Over the course of the golus, Jews from all over the world have moved about to many different places (sometimes willfully and sometimes they were forced) and retained their original minhagim in their new home.

    It should be pointed out, that all Polish, Russian and Litvishe Jews, are descendents of “ashkenazim”.

    How does one snark?

    #1043927

    anonymouslysecret
    Participant

    I am from a completely Litvishe family and recently married someone with a strong Chassidish background. Being the wife, I am of course following the shitos that my husband follows. It definitely takes and open mind on both sides to understand eachother hashkafically, though. Chassidish and Livishe mentality are very different from eachother. I feel that as long as a husband and wife respect eachother, the blend of Chassidish and Litvishe chinuch is very beautiful. I feel lucky to be able to raise my future family, i”yh, with a taste of both worlds.

    #1043928

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    I was referring to: “That was the yekkeshe part of lita.”

    #1043929

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’m still wondering how one “snarks”.

    What happens when a yekke and a chassid get married? The wedding starts exactly 2 hours late.

    #1043930

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A person is not supposed to change his minhagim.

    And yet, Chassidim don’t turn away non-Chassidim and vice-versa. So, again, if a person could choose to adopt (or abandon) a chassidus on his own, why could a married couple not choose to do so?

    The Wolf

    #1043931

    shlishi
    Member

    Your premise that one can simply “choose” to change chassidus is where you are mistaken.

    #1043932

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Your premise that one can simply “choose” to change chassidus is where you are mistaken.

    Perhaps not change, but one *can* choose if he is not in one at all. I know that if you walk into a Satmar shul, a Chabad shul, a Breslov shul and others, they will not turn you away and say “you can’t belong to this chassidus because you’re yeshivish.”

    The Wolf

    #1043933

    shlishi
    Member

    Satmar won’t condition joining to dropping your family minhagim.

    #1043934

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    (Noun) SNARK… Snide remarks.

    Synonyms (snide comments): sarcasm

    Related terms

    snarkiness

    snarky

    (Verb) SNARK (third-person singular simple present snarks, present participle snarking, simple past and past participle snarked)

    To express oneself in a snarky fashion.

    #1043935

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    apushatayid, my comment above was for you, not for shlishi who asked a valid question. Don’t know why you couldn’t chop that and quoted his post.

    #1043936

    We tell our kids that we are chasidim of the Litvishe Rebbe.

    #1043937

    msseeker
    Member

    “Your premise that one can simply “choose” to change chassidus is where you are mistaken.”

    Not at all. I know of a skverer family that recently became Satmar (for some mysterious reason:-/)

    #1043938

    Peacemaker
    Member

    What makes it mysterious msseeker?

    #1043939

    yaff80
    Participant

    Whats ironic is, when a litvak turns chasidish, the chasidim try to console the family by sayin “we’re are all bonim of Hashem”, “its all the same Torah etc”.

    However when a chasid turns litvish, they get into a frenzy as though the world was collapsing!

    So to what extent is it the same Torah?

    #1043940

    msseeker
    Member

    That’s because when a chossid decides to call himself Litvish, he doesn’t exactly have in mind to sit down in Lakewood and learn for 20 years. He just wants to be more modern.

    PM, If you don’t know, all the better.

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