Chasidus Without Context
Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Chasidus Without Context
- This topic has 155 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 2 months, 2 weeks ago by n0mesorah.
December 11, 2022 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #2146573
I’ve noticed a rise in special kumzits events or farbrengen advertised in more modern/litvish communities in honor of Rebbes many people didn’t really know about a few years ago. The newest thing being advertised are Yud Tes Kislev events. These often involve high end food and professional musicians playing. What’s the reason for this rise in interest in these events. Do these supersede regular sedarim, work, family obligations that people usually keep? It’s one thing to be chasidush and live a consistently but it’s another thing to do a little bit of this and a little bit of that.December 11, 2022 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #2146597commonsaychelParticipant
idk maybe its taking a kulah from across the aisle or a fancy trip statusDecember 11, 2022 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #2146600RockyParticipant
I would guess that most of the guys going to these things are not missing out on their regular sedarim if you know what I mean. From a positive angle, look at as guys looking for an outlet that has a bit of a more positive bend than what they would have been involved in 20 years ago. In the past, they would have been getting together for sports games and beer parties. Now they switched the MVP for a Rebbe. It may not demonstrate a genuine strive for ruchniyus but is better than the alternative.December 11, 2022 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #2146601RockyParticipant
The high-end food and musicians is just a sign of the times. A lot of frum Jews have more money than they know what to do with. Nebach. As long as they don’t fool themselves into thinking that spending $ on this type of thing falls into the category of a mitzvah.December 11, 2022 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #2146608Baby SquirrelParticipant
They should not have as many Kumzitzen and send the extra money to Eretz YisroelDecember 11, 2022 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #2146605
It’s 100% better than sports games and beer parties. But are these farbrengen going on too much to the point that it takes away from learning?December 11, 2022 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #2146606
Can’t blame them, chassidic music is by far the best.December 11, 2022 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #2146607Yserbius123Participant
I’ve never seen a Yud Tes Kislev event that wasn’t organized by Chabad. I think it’s just that many of them have more funding and are reaching out with bigger campaigns.
No stupid questions, but can someone remind me of what the significance is of 19 Kislev?December 11, 2022 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #2146624
I’m seeing it creep into organizations that aren’t officially Chabad.December 11, 2022 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #2146633koltov7Participant
Its almost bedtime. Make sure everyone remembers to use the potty.December 11, 2022 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #2146636SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
Yud Tes Kislev is NEVER mentioned in: Tanach, Mishnah, Jerusalem Talmud, Babylonian Talmud, Rashi, Tosafos, Gaonim, Rishonim, Shulchan Aruch, or the commentaries written on pages of the Shulchan Aruch.
Yud Tes Kislev is NOT a real Jewish holiday, and should NOT be celebrated by Jews.
Don’t Jews already have enough holidays, even without Yud Tes Kislev?
Last-but-not-least, if you make new Jewish holidays, Ain LeDavar Sof — there is no end to it!December 11, 2022 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #2146638
yserb, ya”t kislev has significance for two reasons; outside chabad, it’s known as the mizritcher maggid’s yahrtzeit, and the day that the baal hatanya was released from jail. Chabad started saying its the “rosh hashannah for chasidus” at some point.December 11, 2022 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #2146640commonsaychelParticipant
I guess its taking the kulah from across the aisle to quote a very wise CR posterDecember 11, 2022 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #2146654
When things go wrong we kvetch. When there’s celebrations with “high end” food, we kvetch. Let them enjoy Yud Tes. How does it affect you?December 11, 2022 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #2146656🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
who said it affects me?December 11, 2022 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #2146660
square, to be fair, lots of events aren’t mentioned in seforim until they are made into days; satmar celebrates the day that the rebbe escaped the camps, 20 sivan is observed due to Tach vetat, and many other such examples.
The problem is that chabad makes too much out of it, as if it were something that is in chazal.December 11, 2022 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #2146661dovrosenbaumParticipant
In this day and age, for better or worse, I feel that it is very difficult for people to stay connected to their yiddishkeit. It is very hard to stay frum in a world full of competing influences, distractions, amusements, diversions, and the like. With people’s success in parnassa, perhaps there is an even greater temptation to leave the world of torah u’mitzvos. So really, given the shas hadechak of our times, perhaps we need to accept the yeridas hadoros and realize that if people need these things to be Jewish, so be it. Is it better for a Jew to go to a kumzits, farbreng, enjoy kosher meats and scotch in the company of other Jews, or to go off and do who knows what?December 11, 2022 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #2146662GadolhadorahParticipant
Although conversion therapy has been outlawed in most states, it is still possible for a Litvisher yid to realize the joys of a chassideshe lifestyle. Yid tes kislev is just the entry point.December 11, 2022 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #2146663
“Yud Tes Kislev is NOT a real Jewish holiday, and should NOT be celebrated by Jews.“
Haha what to you say to those that’s recite hallel on יום העצמאות?December 11, 2022 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #2146678
Is this really the biggest issue facing Klal Yisroel in 2022??December 11, 2022 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2146680Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
It is legit for someone (Alter Rebbe) to celebrate being freed from (Russian) prison – and for his students to continue celebrating. And for other friends to join a l’chaim. What’s the big deal?December 11, 2022 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2146681
Lost, who says square is a European Hebrew nationalist?December 11, 2022 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #2146703
I didn’t say that he was.December 11, 2022 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #2146707ujmParticipant
YO (Ye): You’re still counting based on the years of Yushke?December 11, 2022 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #2146709YaapchikParticipant
What sort of emptiness in your life has prompted you to be unnerved by it? If you don’t want to go to such an event, don’t go! Why do you seem perturbed by others who do go and maybe get a little dose of ehrliche inspiration? Why does that upset you so?December 11, 2022 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #2146713
Yaap – mesorah is important; changing it bothers people who are concerned for doing ratzon Hashem, and not with fleeting inspiration at the expense thereof.December 11, 2022 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #2146714
It’s not about wanting or not wanting. If it’s Heimish, anything goes and qualifies.December 11, 2022 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #2146723koltov7Participant
Have you ever heard of something called a minhag?
If there was absolutely one mesorah in klal yisroel there would never be any machlokes, and you also most certainly wouldn’t be up 2 hours past your bedtime.December 11, 2022 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #2146721FurhatoneParticipant
Could it be that a little simcha couldn’t hurt? It’s not just a bunch of fressing and drinking. I believe that it can fill a void in a person’s neshama. Yiddishkeit can be a bright, joyous appreciation and some farbrengens can uplift a Yid.December 11, 2022 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #2146722ujmParticipant
Chabad is “Heimish”?December 12, 2022 8:06 am at 8:06 am #2146770smerelParticipant
>>>Is this really the biggest issue facing Klal Yisroel in 2022??
99.999999% of what people hock about on and offline aren’t really the biggest issues facing Klal Yisroel in 2022. Do you repeat this comment multiple times a day? Do you only talk about the biggest issue facing Klal Yisroel in 2022?December 12, 2022 8:30 am at 8:30 am #2146796jdbParticipant
Halevai this should be the greatest issue facing klal yisrael. One day a year many people (re)connect with chassidus, try something that may be new to them, maybe find another way to connect with Hashem – typically through music and chassidishe torah.
The idea of having a special day of dveikus to commemorate a nes or hatzalah is an ancient practice. Joining your neighbor as they celebrate what happened for their rebbe is the same idea.
Having a taste of something refreshing and new – a deeper more spiritual and emotional way to relate to HKBH is at the core of chassidus and hischadshus. This isn’t chassidus out of context. It’s very much chassidus at it’s best.December 12, 2022 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #2146866HaLeiViParticipant
AviraDeArah, where have you seen anyone celebrating the Yahrzeit of the Mezritcher Maggid?
It’s actually odd to me that in Lubavitch they call this day the Rosh Hashanah of Chasidus all the while ignoring the fact that it’s the Mezritcher Maggid’s Yahrzeit.December 12, 2022 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2146907
halevi – in my yeshiva, the only time we skip tachanun on account of a yahrtzeit is ya”t kislev, as per rav shraga feivel’s ruling. It’s not made into a huge day, but people do put out food for tikkun.December 13, 2022 7:42 am at 7:42 am #2147138
We used to have a megillas taanis. I’ve always found the name funny as it should have been megillas simchos. In either case the idea of klal Yisroel or even an individual celebrating a yearly seudas hodah for an event of significance is clearly based in antiquity. So a seudah on the rebbe getting out of jail certainly has a basis.
That said, if we are honest , we would see that the shuls are not exactly bursting at the seams at night. We don’t live in Vilna of the 1800’s where the baal ha Batim put in a few hours after work(at least not in Flatbush). If you learn a little gemarah you will see that the majority of klal Yisroel has always had the status of “am Haaretz” serious learning and practice was never for the masses, so I’m on board with kosher outlets that have a little ruchniyos mixed in.December 13, 2022 8:52 am at 8:52 am #2147140
And isn’t that what chassidis is all about? Didn’t it start as An alternative form of ruchniyos for the average joe (am haaretz) who couldnt relate to the idea of sitting and learning?
I’m not denying that they don’t have great lamdin. I benefit greatly from the mesivta gemarah that is a chassidik publication.
The masses change, their spiritual needs change. We adapt a little . As long as those who learn torah lishma keep shteiging hopefully they always are the example of what the ideal is and hopefully they keep those that do “adapt” on the right derech.December 13, 2022 8:53 am at 8:53 am #2147147
I just saw an interesting interpretation that the word הודאה, hoduah has two related meanings. It means praise and also acknowledgement by recognizing the truth. When we praise Hashem for His miracles we must recognize it and appreciate it first. This is/was done for Chanukah and by the Rebbe when saved.December 13, 2022 9:21 am at 9:21 am #2147190
mentsch1: well saidDecember 13, 2022 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2147183
Mentsch, that’s not true. Most jews before haskalah were learned. See chayei odom in the hakdama, rambams schedule for an average baal habayis (8 hours a day of learning!)December 13, 2022 9:26 am at 9:26 am #2147192DaMosheParticipant
Many people like to celebrate these Chassidish events because they’re enjoyable. It’s a shame that they try to disguise it as a religious observance. It’s just another piece of what I like to call “Feel-good Judaism”, where people just pick parts of various Mesorahs, whatever gives them a warm fuzzy feeling.
In most cases, people don’t really have any religious context for it.
Here is another example:
In my community, a number of people switched from davening on Shabbos morning at a minyan which is at a usual time, in order to go to a late minyan (not starting until 10). When I asked a friend “what about the halachos of zman Krias Shema and zman tefillah?” his response was that Chassidus has minhagim of different zmanim, so it’s ok. This person is not a chassid – he doesn’t keep any other chassidish minhagim. He just picks this because it’s easy for him.
Judaism isn’t about feeling good. Yes, doing mitzvos should make you happy, but it doesn’t always. It’s about doing what Hashem wants from us, however it makes us feel.December 13, 2022 11:32 am at 11:32 am #2147224
I actually was quoting the chayai adom except you left out a word that I included, “vilna”
The idea that the masses were learned ignores the numerous gemoros referring to the differences between the minority chaverim and masses (am haretzim)
It also ignores the testimony of almost every discussion on this topic found in biographies of the time
Rav Miller who learned in slabodka talked about this all the timeDecember 13, 2022 11:33 am at 11:33 am #2147228
damoshe – agreedDecember 13, 2022 11:34 am at 11:34 am #2147227
Hence the term am haaretz
The definition is someone who is basically frum but not stringent or careful on certain matters
The reality is that most people, even those that learned in yeshiva, are “am haretzim”. Another definition (chagigah) is that they reject criticism/hadracha (as in your case)
A chaver is someone who is careful of all d’rabunans and accepts hadracha. Adapted to modernity; a person who wants to grow and changes his ways.
There is a tension between the two groups. Chaverim have to limit contact with am haratzim but without creating “aivah” (hate).
If you consider yourself a chaver, you don’t have to worry about accepting their trumah but you still need to limit contact. Go learn while they celebrate. It doesn’t mean that the party isn’t worthwhile, if it injects some ruchniyos and keeps them from watching TV for a night then kol hacovod. And maybe it will inspire them to learn more and become a chaverDecember 13, 2022 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #2147243DaMosheParticipant
mentsch, my point was that it doesn’t necessarily inject ruchniyos. A warm fuzzy feeling doesn’t mean you’re getting closer to Hashem.December 13, 2022 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #2147259Yserbius123Participant
@AvirahDeArah I knew about the Ba’al HaTanya’s imprisonment, I did not know that it was also a yartzeit. Still, I’m not sure if that answers my question? Like why did this event, out of all other wonderful things that happened to Klal Yisroel, warrant a special Yom Tov for Lubavitch? And why do Chabaskers assume that everyone should celebrate it?December 13, 2022 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #2147261
mentsch1, לא עם הארץ חסיד, am haaretz is used for people who have not learned hence they can not be a chassid, doing more than required, without learning. One will do more when less should be done and vice versa.December 13, 2022 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #2147279
I am not sure what you are trying to say
Certainly the term chassidus as used today is not the same as the gemarah
As the gemarah uses it, it means a chaver (or maybe we can say a learning boy or a man of mussar)
as it is used today it means a movement/sect that moved away from standard litvishnis
It certainly doesn’t take into account the religious commitment of the individual
I assure you that , just because modern day chassidium have krazaldikah peyos, it doesn’t mean that the majority of chassidum aren’t still am haaretizim
If you truly believe I am wrong then I might suggest a trip to boro park.
Or maybe spend some time in a young chassidish bungalow colony. The kiddush after davening has mandatory attendance, as opposed to the davening itself.December 13, 2022 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2147281
mentch, rav avigdor miller writes explicitly the opposite; that the amei haaretz were not even enough to constitute a class, and that if you wanted to insult someone in gemara times, you’d call them “reika” – empty one, one who does not have torah knowledge.
It wasn’t just vilna, it was in any major jewish city. the little ‘derfels’ had more amei haaretz, but this wasnt the majority.December 13, 2022 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #2147285
yserb, no one thought of it as a huge holiday until present-day chabad. They make big deals out of all sorts of things, including “hakhel.” And of course they think all of us need to celebrate it, because it’s not chabad, but rather Judaism that makes a big deal out of it, and don’t you want to follow Judaism?
they expect everyone else to follow them, in every regard, nothing new here.
I made a nice bracha li’ilui nishmas the maggid, and I don’t say tachanun; that’s about itDecember 13, 2022 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2147292
The Maaneh Simcha, the father of the Rav Shmuel ztz’l, the Matersdorfer Rav, said pshat of a Chanukah light that was placed above 20 amos is pasul indicating that he places learning Torah as valuable only for the next world, no use for this world. Is being told that he will not only be a bor reik, an emptiness lacking water of Torah but ends up a person being full of snakes and scorpions in his behavior.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.