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  • #1105788
    mw13
    Participant

    Joseph, that quote was in response to you saying “no one will be able to name any mainstream, semi-meainstream or even semi-semi-mainstream name that has any issue with” doing melachah after shkiya. Well, that’s simply not true. The Biur Halacha, which is quite a mainstream staple of psak, does indeed take issue with this.

    #1105789
    Joseph
    Participant

    mw13, you misunderstood my comment that you quoted. I was not indicating that no rabbonim/poskim disagree with the R”T’s shitta. Rather my point was no serious rabbi holds that someone paskening or holding by the R”T’s zmanim is a shaigets or even has no halachic grounds to stand on.

    #1105790
    mw13
    Participant

    no serious rabbi holds that someone paskening or holding by the R”T’s zmanim is a shaigets or even has no halachic grounds to stand on.

    You don’t think “issur gemur… vi’chas vi’shaom lihukel ba’zeh” means “no halachic ground to stand on”?

    #1105791
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You don’t think “issur gemur… vi’chas vi’shaom lihukel ba’zeh” means “no halachic ground to stand on”?

    One thing it doesn’t mean is “and even if someone follows the mesorah of their community to follow Rabeinu Tam’s shittah, they are still michutz lamachaneh”.

    #1105792
    Joseph
    Participant

    Correct. Do you think the CC held that Rabbeinu Tam and his kehilla were mechallel Shabbos?

    #1105793
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Where in the Chafetz Chaim does it say anything about the Zman Shabbos?

    #1105794
    Joseph
    Participant

    Right. The quoted Biur Halacha refers to shkiah without specifying when shkiah is. That’s the contention by the R”T. R”T holds shkiah itself is later, something the CC doesn’t take exception to.

    #1105795
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    <I>A yeshiva bochur who is 17 when walking past a 16 year old girl on the sidewalk from a local bais yaakov on shabbos will say “gut shabbos” as a reflex.</I>

    Is that true where you come from? I wasn’t 17 too long ago, and iirc, greeting a girl your age was certainly not a reflex! Have the standards changed that fast?

    It’s never a full-on conversation. It’s just those words “gut Shabbos”. People do not even realize it. Not everyone is 100% perfect about doing it or not doing it every time- maybe reflex was slightly dramatic, but yeah, I have been greeted by Yeshiva Bochurim before like this. The standards though may depend on where you are living though. I tend to travel a lot.

    #1105796

    There was also the Tzimtzum issue which I don’t think has been discussed here.

    #1105797
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    <em<There was also the Tzimtzum issue which I don’t think has been discussed here.

    General Kaballa, not specific to Chassidus.

    #1105798
    Ash
    Participant

    @gavra_at_work Did I say that was all?

    #1105799
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    @Ash – sure implied it. If you have what to add, please do so….

    Also, I’m not @gavra_at_work, I’m [email protected]!!

    #1105800
    mw13
    Participant

    Joseph:

    The quoted Biur Halacha refers to shkiah without specifying when shkiah is. That’s the contention by the R”T. R”T holds shkiah itself is later, something the CC doesn’t take exception to.

    I quote the actual B”H, for the third time:

    “…mi’yad achar haschulas ha’shkiyah, haynu mi’shuh sheha’chamah niskaseh me’eynainu, ho issur gemur shelo laasos melacha, vi’chas vi’shaom lihukel ba’zeh, di’ho safek issur skilah…”

    “… right after the beginning of shkiyah, which is from the time that the sun is hidden from our eyes, there is an absolute prohibition to not do melacha, and heaven forbid to be lenient in this, for it is a possible prohibition punishable by stoning…”

    Did you even read it?

    #1105801
    Joseph
    Participant

    mw13, why are you ignoring the question: Do you think the CC held that Rabbeinu Tam and his kehilla were mechallel Shabbos? Because you clearly imply so. A simple yes (or no with an explanation on your discrepancy) shall suffice.

    The prohibition that melacha is forbidden after shkiya is undisputed. The machlokes is over when shkiya is. Rabbeinu Tam has a shitta that is held by large portions of Klal Yisroel. The reason “it is a possible prohibition punishable by stoning” (di’ho safek issur skilah) is due to the uncertainty whether Shabbos starts at shkiya or at tzeis. (And since it is uncertain, everyone agrees we must start Shabbos at shkiya, but not all poskim agree when shkiya is.)

    Now please address the question posed to you.

    #1105802
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’ll give it a shot….

    Do you think the CC held that Rabbeinu Tam and his kehilla were mechallel Shabbos?

    Maybe (but only maybe). The CC also held the same for the Gaon, who (might have) done melocha 13.5 (IIRC) minutes after the sun is no longer visible (early shkiyah). Therefore, the CC recommends that one be Machmir for both shittos. That is not to say that holding of either shittah makes one “a shaigets or even has no halachic grounds to stand on”. In fact, there are quite a few practical Halachic Nafkei Mina during the “in-between” times that the CC would agree to since the Z’man is only a Safek.

    That being said, the Biur Halacha does say one should keep “early” shkiyah, and is quite explicit about it.

    #1105803
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph

    Rabbeinu Tam has a shitta that is held L’CHUMRAH, NOT L’KULAH by large portions of Klal Yisroel.

    FTFY

    #1105804
    Joseph
    Participant

    gavra, actually large portions hold R”T’s shitta kipshuta. Of those, most (but not all) use the other (non-R”T) shittas l’chumra on top of R”T. But even those that add the other shittas l’chumra, essentially hold R”T’s zman is their shitta per se.

    #1105805
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph – GRA L’Chumrah or RT L’Chumrah. Either way works. I’ll even agree with you that many Yidden will hold RT as primary and GRA L’Chumrah as secondary, but I don’t think (and correct me if I’m wrong) there is any real difference.

    Regarding the (but not all): Are you aware of anyone who will (for example) do Milah on Shabbos for a baby born 55 minutes after early shkiyah Saturday, which is 3.5 minutes before RT Shiyah (pashtus), and after Rav Moshe’s 50 miuntes? Like HaKatan and Zionism = AZ, many will state that they hold certain shittos, but when the chips are down, they hesitate to put those shittos into practice.

    #1105806
    Joseph
    Participant

    gavra, the difference I can see is that if they hold R”T l’halacha and take the Gra as an added chumra, m’ikur hadin they’re only bound to their shitta (i.e. the R”T). As a practical matter they’ll probably always use the Gra as a chumra. But bshas hadchak they might rely on the R”T, without using the Gra’s zman l’chumra, in case of a bona fide emergency as their adherence to the Gra’s zman was only mekabel as a chumra and not as psak halacha. BTW, this same point would apply in reverse for those who accept the Gra l’halacha and take on the R”T l’chumra.

    Does anyone consider those who [start and] end Shabbos early to be a Mechallel Shabbos because he doesn’t wait for the R”T’s zman for Shabbos to end? In that case we have lots of non-Shomer Shabbos folks davening in many non-chasidic shuls. There’s another queston for mw13: Are those ending Shabbos before the R”T zman doing the same as those starting Shabbos after the Gra’s zman.

    As far those “(but not all)” who don’t even take the Gra l’chumra, and stick only to R”T kipshuta, I’m not sure how’d they’d answer your milah question. But if they rigidly followed the R”T on the zmanim, they’d be halachicly consistent. I think the R”T himself, and his kehila, would have the bris on Shabbos.

    R”T is not chopped liver. And at the end of the day, members of kehilos who strictly follow R”T kipshuta, and have a mesora of following the halacha as such going back to their kehilos in Europe, have solid halachic ground to do so. Even if the M”B disagrees.

    #1105807
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    but I don’t think (and correct me if I’m wrong) there is any real difference.

    There are several differences. Off the top of my head, z’man Mincha and Maariv, bein hashmoshos for certain situations (e.g. amirah l’akum l’tzorech), mayim shelanu.

    #1105808
    mw13
    Participant

    Joseph:

    The prohibition that melacha is forbidden after shkiya is undisputed. The machlokes is over when shkiya is. Rabbeinu Tam has a shitta that is held by large portions of Klal Yisroel. The reason “it is a possible prohibition punishable by stoning” (di’ho safek issur skilah) is due to the uncertainty whether Shabbos starts at shkiya or at tzeis. (And since it is uncertain, everyone agrees we must start Shabbos at shkiya, but not all poskim agree when shkiya is.)

    You have clearly never read the Buir Halacha you are attempting to interpret. The Biur Halacha goes through the sugya, starting with the stira in the Gemora, then Rabbeinu Tam’s answer, then the answer of R’ Shiraya Goan, R’ Hai Gaon, Rashi, the Rif, and the Rambam. According to R”T, shkiya starts 4 mil (72 min) after the sun sets and is no longer in view. According to all those who argue, shkiya starts immediately after the sun is no longer in view. So when the B”H says “…mi’yad achar haschulas ha’shkiyah, haynu mi’shuh sheha’chamah niskaseh me’eynainu…” he is clearly to referring to the shittah of the Gaonim and rov Rishonim, who hold shkiya starts from when the sun is no longer in view.

    But in case that isn’t enough of a proof for you, let me quote you how the B”H begins the sentence:

    “Vi’henay li’maaseh, bi’vaday tzurich li’zuher ki’daas ha’Gra vi’harbaih min haRishonim vihaPoskim hanal di’mi’yad achar haschulas ha’shkiyah, haynu mi’shuh sheha’chamah niskaseh me’eynainu, ho issur gemur shelo laasos melacha, vi’chas vi’shaom li’hukel ba’zeh, di’ho safek issur skilah…”

    But don’t take my word for it; crack open a Mishnah Berurah and check it out yourself.

    (Btw, I’m makpid for the shittah of R”T myself.)

    Do you think the CC held that Rabbeinu Tam and his kehilla were mechallel Shabbos?

    First of all, the Chofetz Chaim didn’t make this shittah up. R’ Shiraya Goan, R’ Hai Gaon, Rashi, the Rif, and the Rambam did. The B”H is simply paskening like the majority. So your question really is, did all those Gaonim and Rishonim hold about R”T and his kehillah.

    Secondly, I’m not sure why you suddenly decided to make this an issue here.

    The Chazon Ish held one may not open bottle caps on Shabbos. R’ Moshe allowed it. R’ Moshe held one may not use a “shabbos clock” on shabbos; the Chazon Ish allowed it.

    Did the Chazon Ish and R’ Moshe each hold that the other was mechallel Shabbos?

    Or going back a little bit further, did Bais Shammai and Bais Hillel each hold that the other was “shkotzim” or “chopped liver”?

    And most importantly, what difference does it make in this point in history?? Shouldn’t we be focusing on figuring out what the Halacha is today, not bizarrely trying to figure out what names we think the Gedolim of the past would have called each other, if they had acted like some of us do today?

    #1105809
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And most importantly, what difference does it make in this point in history?

    Can I eat Satmar shechitah?

    #1105810

    “…what names we think the Gedolim of

    the past would have called each other…”

    I’m pretty sure we have records in many

    cases of what they did call each other.

    #1105811
    555
    Participant

    FrozenThaw: Mentioned somewhat earlier about davening quickly/slowly this might have changed. Because it is well known the Belser rebbe zy”a said to daven quickly so no disturbing thoughts should have time to interrupt your kavana. On the other hand, it is also known that Brisk pronounce words slowly to be mdayek.

    mw13: “Hachama niskasa m’eyneinu” must be the zman because Tzais is Tzais and not Shkiya. How long does it take from Shkiya till tzais? for that you have many answers. Also, dividing the world in different places to calcullate. Just like time zones can change. How do you calculate when it is cloudy and you cannot see any stars?

    In Yerushalaim Chabad has a minyan maaariv mtzsh”k 25 min after shkiya, also 60, also 72. The debretziner paskened in NY it is 56. But of course you have to know where you live. Go to Gateshead or Alaska and in the summer some hold 72 even there. Is it Ameratsus or Shitah? (no difference, just stating)

    DY: If you have such a question you should ask you rabbi. If you are a Rabbi, don’t pasken based on internet info.

    Those yeshivish Talmidei Chachamim who don’t eat Chssidish Shchitah choose not to do so but will not take b’chirah away from you since it is not treif just a hiddur. And hiddur you are not allowed to be machbid on the tzibur. If you don’t want to eat Satmar you don’t have to. There are many options. There is no reason to come out against them. Since a learner would know ” Asse L’choh Rav”. everyone asks their rav .

    Klal Yisroel started with 12 Shvatim, Each had their own Nasi. and they did pasken differently and none was Neged halacha.

    #1105812
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY: If you have such a question you should ask you rabbi. If you are a Rabbi, don’t pasken based on internet info.

    So I’ll disregard that statement, since it’s from the internet, and keep paskening from random internet sites.

    (I wasn’t asking a question, just pointing out a current nafka mina.)

    #1105813
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    There are several differences. Off the top of my head, z’man Mincha and Maariv, bein hashmoshos for certain situations (e.g. amirah l’akum l’tzorech), mayim shelanu.

    Mind expanding a bit? Remember, they would also hold of the Gaon L’Chumrah (Assuming not as a minhag, but a real safek, like the MB).

    #1105814
    555
    Participant

    Seems like that means Chassidim and Misnagdim can’t mix. Just like Bais Hillel and Bais Shamei. But “kol machlokes Shehi L’Shem Shamayim Sofa L’hiskayem”. That means everyone keeps their own. (meaning choosing a mahalach and sticking to it).

    #1105815
    Joseph
    Participant

    They only hold of the Gaon L’Chumrah on m’doraysa, like Shabbos, but they do not hold of the Gaon L’Chumrah for zman tefila.

    #1105816
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph – good point.

    [email protected]

    #1105817
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    Different rebbes do different things. That is true. On the other hand, the Klausenberger rebbe was known for taking a very long time to daven. Each word very enunciated. Friday night davening could easily be on motzei Shabbos.

    Bobov Shabbos davening is also a long time as well. I was there once, my lunch meal where I was sleeping in BP was at 1 pm and they were just in the middle of mussaf.

    Karlin-Stolin on 16th in BP starts earlier and ends earlier. When I was there it ended by 10:30-10:45 (in Summer).

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