July 24, 2011 4:51 am at 4:51 am #598169
Anyone listening to Rabbi Zwiebel on this topic on the Zev Brenner show?July 24, 2011 6:00 am at 6:00 am #790047
I always looked up to you and your delightful and insightful articles. Full of invaluable practicable advice and emotional support. All with a clear, level-headedness approach. I don’t know what the issue at hand is (maybe I shouldn’t), but why the sudden change?July 24, 2011 7:26 am at 7:26 am #790048
I don’t really know what Rabbi Zwiebel can add to this topic as it contains many issues that involve Halacha and must be addressed by Gedolei Poskim.
If it is the secular viewpoint that is being discussed. My personal feelings are that whatever measures secular authorities have taken to protect children are obviously an abject failure as the secular society is literally falling apart faster the ever.
As such I really do not care for their opinions what so everJuly 24, 2011 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #790050July 24, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #790051popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I would never moser someone without asking a rav anyway.
I once masered someone. He is a scam artist who rips off frum jews in NY. I reported him to the police after asking a very big posek.
(The police refused to take a report even. Classic NYPD).July 24, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #790053
Halacha doesn’t change when the state legislature makes a mandated reporter. That being said, there is no conflict anyways between the halacha (as paskened by Rav Elyashiv) and state law in New York.July 24, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #790054popa_bar_abbaParticipant
does he even understand the concept of a mandated reporter?
According to google translate, it is in yiddish: ?????????? ??????????July 24, 2011 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #790056
Whether a situation reaches the threshold of ragalayim l’davar is a critical halachic issue that only a posek can determine if the halachic threshold is met.July 24, 2011 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #790057nishtdayngesheftParticipant
In response to your comment, You live in the US and speak English. Do you even know of the concepts of Torah and Halacha? Your comments indicate that they are very foreign ideas to you.
But to quote his surgeon, the chief of Cardio Surgery at the Cleveland Clinic, it is amazing how astute and aware of current issues the Rabbi is. And this was after meeting with R Elyashiv.July 24, 2011 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #790058
Rav Elyashivs Psak is actually written down i Hebrew and published in the Teshuvah Sefer that collects his responsa, He states clearly that there must be reglayim l’davar to allow going to the police as well as further conditions.
If anyone wants further clarification they can talk to Rav Feivel Cohen shlita a Rov in Brooklyn who is a born and bred American as the Responsa is addressed to him and he has spent hours upon hours discussing the issue with Rav Elyashiv shlita.July 24, 2011 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #790059
Now at last I see the issue you were so agitated about. I generally steer clear of politics, my little say would have absolutely no effect whatsoever, hence my mixing in would be totally loshon hara, richilus, machlokes, onaas devarim and a host of other cute little averos.
But maybe in this instance, it would be ????, worthwhile to find out what daas Torah is first, before jumping to action. – my very humblekite.July 24, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #790060gregaaronMember
Even with the knowledge of the laws of mandated reporting, if halacha and the law say two different things, I know which one I’m going with.July 24, 2011 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #790061
Regardng Mandating Reporting Laws.
A cursory google search on Mandated Reporting laws shows that it is at the very least a highly contoversial law. There is widespread evidence that far from even coming close to solving the issue Mandated Reporting Lawsmade the issue severly worse wherever they were introduced.
Those who are vocal in their opposition to these Laws include former CPS officials and family rights advocates.
After spending some time looking into these laws when the issue of the Markey Bill came up I was forced to conclude that it was yet another liberal experiment gone bad.
Then again considering the fact that the society that the orthodox ewish world has a far better track record of producing normal, healthy and productive adults then the secular world which has a culture that is in complete disarray, I truly havve learnt that in most instances the best advice is to do the opposite of whatever is in style by the secularists.July 24, 2011 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #790062
Zeeskite, maybe you should research the subject first before commenting. Please read the thread “frustrated” so you can learn a little more from a victim herself. But thanks for your concern about me. MY MOMMY taught me well, thank you. Even Zweibel, if you listen to last night’s show, says Raglayim l’davar means if you know for sure. Anyone who was touched inappropriately or was “molested” knows for sure, there is no need to discuss it with a Rav. They know where they were touched and how. Do you need a description?July 24, 2011 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #790063
Their have been numerous proven cases of false accusations by both children and adults.July 24, 2011 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #790064
If you wish to dig a little you will find out that not only have there been numerous proven cases of false accuasations. Studies seem to show that a false accusation of child abuse in many cases prove to be ust as detrimental to the child at the heart of the case as a real and actual case of child abuse.
Google it and you will be amazed (and horrified) I would hope.
Personally I feel that someone who actually gets beyond the emotions and digs a little to find out the actual numbers and the story behind the numbers will be amazed at the wisdom of the Torah and have a renewed sense of appreciation towards those Rabbonim who have stood couragesly against the tide and fought to protect our communities, families , and yes children from the untold damage and harm that has been done to the children and families in the secular world.
May hashem give them continued Koach to withsatnd the pressures and monetary benefits being offered to them if they will ust agree to ignore Shulchan aruch and common sense in favor of that which has been proven a disastorous failure.July 24, 2011 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #790065600 Kilo BearMember
Regarding mandatory reporting laws:
I have many a friend who never met his grandfather because the “mandatory reporters” of the day, called the Yevsektzia, turned their grandfathers in for crimes like baking matzos.
There was also a story of a “mandatory reporter” in Europe or Canada who was either an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew. He turned in a frum couple after their child fell and broke an arm or a leg. He ruined the family, and only years later were they cleared.
On the other hand, we need to deal with the Mondrowitzes and Kolkos very decisively. But even when we do, as was the case with one monster turned in by a principal of a moisad in California, the justice system fails us and they’re let out after short sentences.July 25, 2011 1:18 am at 1:18 am #790067happiestMemberJuly 25, 2011 2:21 am at 2:21 am #790068
Happiest, it means if you know for sure. Anyone that was molested knows for sure without a doubt.July 25, 2011 2:50 am at 2:50 am #7900701987Participant
To the moderator: PLEASE remove the post stating people’s names. PURE loshon hara. Whatever happened to the rule that yeshiva world doesn’t post loshon hara?
thanks. -95July 25, 2011 3:15 am at 3:15 am #790071
Sorry Aries2756 but Raglayim L’davar does not mean that one most know for sure rather the closest translation that could be applied is probable suspicion and even that is not wholly accurate as many other things factor in.
And yes of course someone who was actually molested knows for sure however it is the Beis Din that is Matir him to be Moiser that must be convinced there is raglayim ludvur as in their eyes both the accused and accuser are “reshaim”.July 25, 2011 3:17 am at 3:17 am #790072
And yes Aries it makes perfect sense that the Agudah comprised of frum yidden many of whom are either fathers or grandfathers as well as many Poskim are less concerned with the welfare of your children then your local DA or precint captain.
Do you realize how utterly ridiculous that sounds?July 25, 2011 4:17 am at 4:17 am #790075kapustaParticipant
I’m also very passionate about some things and I know the feeling, but please, for your sake, try to calm down. Easier said than done, I know.July 25, 2011 5:00 am at 5:00 am #790077
What an impressive post, and quite accurate.
Let’s just daven that our community continues to show a little bit of brains and does not follow the ways of others who unforunatley are already undergoing many of the trials and tribulations you have so eloquently mentioned.July 25, 2011 5:50 am at 5:50 am #790078
OK, I did research. Where does you ‘Mommy’ get into the picture? But let me tell you a story of my ‘Tatty’.
My father shlit”a was a devoted and sought after rebbe, in a well established yeshiva. He must have had hundreds of talmidim if not more, throughout his career. His warmth, geshmack, ehrlichkeit were unparalleled.
At one point during this wonderful period, he noticed a tangible coolness and a distancing from the principal and administrators. He weathered it out and finished the year successfully.
Many years later he stopped being a rebbe, and became a noted askan. At one point he was attending some sort of simcha, and was asked to speak. At the close of the simcha, the Rav present called my father aside and spoke to him…
It was many years ago, he was a boy in Yeshiva, he (father) was his rebbe. His best friend was in the other (parallel) class, and he really wanted to change to the other one. So he made up this story that his rebbe (father) potched him hard. (In all the years, hundreds of talmidim, no one can remember my father potching once! He had and has a different way of working.) That he told his father, and his father, being some big-wig, made a big tumult… came down to yeshiva… Now, grown up (and a Rav) he asks mechila.
So Aries. This boy has ‘raglaim ledavar’, he ‘knows’, he ‘felt’. There’s no need for daas Torah… A kid says, run to police. Sorry, this site is called Yeshivaworld, Torah ideals should prevail. Now if there’s another credibly Daas Torah backing you, well, that’s a different story. But then again, we’re not following our own baseless sechel, we submit to daas Torah. Naaseh V’nishma, we will do whatever HaShem says to do.July 25, 2011 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #790079☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Literally, “the matter has legs” (to stand on), the idea is NOT that to report, one must know for sure, rather, there must be corroborating evidence, not merely allegations. The amount of evidence and credibility of the evidence is subjective, and must be determined by a competent posek. This should be done immediately, so that any reasonable suspicion will be acted upon before there are any more victims, c”v.July 25, 2011 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #790080love a yidMember
no but i happy that the jews are talking about this!July 25, 2011 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #790081
Zeeskeit, seriously you want to compare a “potch” to molestation? You are so far off base there is no point discussing this with you. Your head is buried so far in the sand it hasn’t seen the light of day in a very long while. Now you are going to say that even the Agudah is wrong for their long awaited change of heart? Why not try to listen to what Zweibel said on Zev Brenner it is still posted.
And FYI, kids would never ever say “run to the police”. Are you a mother? You should know that. If you had anything to do with the victims of abuse or were involved in the therapeutic community in general you would know that.
Furthermore, there are many threads on the YWN with many topics that I am NOT familiar with and therefor do NOT involve myself in. Then there are topics that I have great knowledge and much experience in and those are the ones that I take time to respond to. Some of them are very important but none as important as this one. And no I am not “heated” nor “excited” and don’t need to calm down. Maybe you and some others need to get more “cooked up”. I am quite calm and have repeated what I have said here more times than I can count. This is NOT the first discussion on this topic. I tend to repeat it over and over again for those who choose to ignore it to the detriment of our innocent children. But B”H the Agudah has reached a point where they can no longer ignore it or push it under the wrong and they have given a very clear and concise statement that advocates having been requesting for a very long time, especially since R’ Eliyashuv himself gave his p’sak.
If you feel that I have offended you and others it does not compare to the condescending attitude that you have taken as have others in trying to quash this issue and my opinions on this issue in this thread and others and accuse me c”v of all kinds of horrific and hurtful accusations against Torah and frumkeit. But that doesn’t hurt me as much as innocent children being karbonos for the sake of grown ups whose teivos are covered up because of who they are or what family they belong to.
The statistics show that less than 4% in the goyish world are false accusations. There is no numbers that can be researched since the lack of reporting in the Jewish world. Therefore it is same to assume that there would be even less than 4%. I am no longer willing to risk at the very least 96% of true molestation cases where there are thousands of kids that can be saved each year. Our kids are way too important. Statistics show that each predator will strike on the average 400 times in his career as a molester. That means multiple times to one victim or as many as 400 victims to one perpetrator. How many children are YOU willing to risk for one possible false claim that will be cleared up by the proper authorities? Weigh the risks. I and most of the Frum people I know, especially after Leiby’s death are no longer willing to risk these tremendous odds.
As for “Mommy”. My Mom a”h, always said “book knowledge is worth every penny. But common sense is priceless. Seichel kemen nisht koifen”. I or rather WE don’t have baseless seichel.July 25, 2011 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #790082
There was a recent case (about a year or so ago) in Maryland, near Washington, of a teenager accusing her school sports coach of abuse. The DA prosecuted him and when it turned out that the girl had an ulterior motive where she was trying to hit at the coach and the accusation was a complete fabrication, the jury acquitted the coach.
The acquittal and proof of innocence unfortunately only came after the coach lost his job, reputation, and became known in the community as an abuser. Many times they are actually convicted and the innocence of the accused only comes out later after he is in prison for some time. In this case the only reason they were able to convince the jury to acquit, was because the girl confided in someone that she made up the story.July 25, 2011 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #790083farrockawayParticipant
The posts on this forum are extremely scary.We ask how something like the murder of Leiby A’H could have happened,but yet we talk like this, and don’t actually report when something dangerous is going on. We don’t know that he was actually molested, but the point is that it’s people who talk like this, saying that things shouldn’t be reported that keep perpetuating the problem.
Everyone who talks and believes like this is directly responsible for every single child who has been molested, (and every adult who is now a molester who has themselves been molested). How are you going to face shamayim knowing that you are responsible?
aries2756- you seem to be the only one with some sense.
According to the research (as reported by a well known child therapist), when children report abuse they are right 95-99% of the time.
When a child is molested, they are extremely humiliated and afraid, and will have changes in behavior. You can tell if a child is telling the truth or not.
DaasYochid- when you say there must be corroborating evidence, how could a posek know that any more than the parent of a child or a therapist can? They are not involved with the child everyday, they may know the person and think oh he can never do something like that, but they don’t actually investigate, and try to find out if there is corroborating evidence. A child’s assertion of abuse, especially if the same thing has been reported by a few children, is not merely an allegation.July 25, 2011 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #790084
Baruch Hashem Agudas Yisroel has consistently maintained, in the past and present, its position based on the Moetzei Gedolei HaTorah and Rav Elyashev’s psak din that it is required to ask a posek before ever c”v massering to the authorities. Precisely because of all the false accusations that fly around. (It’s similar to when parents divorce and one r”l falsely accuses in court the other spouse of abuse.)July 25, 2011 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #790085
Zeeskite: Don’t take aries comments personally, she has an agenda, as everyone can see.I am not disagreeing with her totally, I just don’t agree with the way she is doing it!To me Daas Torah comes first, not any therapist in any form!July 25, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #790086
a mamin: Thank you for your kind words. I didn’t know what I did to be SO ridiculed and offended. Not that I really stated here anything substantial. But now I’ll respectfully keep my distance.July 25, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #790088
Peacemaker, for every case that you mention of a false report, there are thousands upon thousands of “true” reports and thousands upon thousands of cases that never get reported. Are you saying that we should have more compassion for that one in thousands more so than the thousands of children that are molested throughout the country in their supposedly safe homes, safe schools and safe neighborhoods?
There is a shul in Boro Park where a well known child molester has been hanging out for years. No one did anything about it. People who are regulars just know to stay away from him and keep their kids away from him. Unfortunately those who are NOT regulars fall prey again and again. Is that right? Do you know how many children could have been saved just from him alone had anyone taken it upon themselves to report him and remove him from the shul? Their claim is “Everyone knows about him and knows to stay away”. Is that good enough for you? Do you know which shul I am talking about? What if you don’t and you walk in with your kids? Are you comfortable about that? You are going to daven in shul and taking your kids to perform the same mitzvah and just because no one wants to report this pedophile your kid might be his next victim.
There is a guy that hangs out at the mikveh most of the day. You and your boys don’t know that because it is NOT your habit or you are new to the neighborhood. “Everyone” knows about him. Really? Everyone but you. Do you feel comfortable about that? How come you don’t know? How come he is there? How come no one does anything about it? What business does he have hanging around there?
Lets understand that the proper authorities know how to weed out false claims and yes some do fall through the cracks and those are the ones that you hear about. AND unfortunately some claims against abuse also fall through the cracks and those predators get off and those victims are not believed. it is the same story in reverse. These things happen but that is NOT a good enough reason to risk the larger portion of the innocent community.July 25, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #790089
Why do you insist on misqoutig sources? the source of 400 children per an abuser is a non-ewish orginazation that is dedicated towards fighting abuse due to Yeshiva World policy I cannot list the address however I can list the real numbers.
70% of child molestors have between 1 and nine victims r”l.
20% have between 10 to 40 victims r”l
The remaining 10 percent are considered to be “serial offendors” and they may have as many as 400 victims in their lifetime.
These are the real numbers check’m up.July 25, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #790090
aries2756: You’re numbers of false accusations are way off. Exactly what is your source for them? False reports are by far a larger percent of reports then you acknowledge. Additionally, that is only reports proven false. There are many more false reports where the victim (the victim is the person *accused* of molestation) is never proven and some even sit in prison falsely as a result of false accusations — whether while awaiting trial that ultimately acquits them or even falsely convicted and sometimes only years later is their innocence proven after they sat in prison for who knows how long, while others innocence are never acknowledged. All the while these victims reputation is destroyed, they are looked at as molesters by community members, they lose their job and friends.
And, no, even allowing ONE victim of a false accusation to be hung is unacceptable. Halacha prefers that guilty people be let go unfairly rather than an innocent person be punished unfairly, when that is the risk/trade-off.July 25, 2011 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #790091
Now for those who wish to know some further details according to a study done by child psychologist Wade F. Horn 9% of all child abuse is done by the mothers live in boyfriend. A further 12% is done by stepfathers.
Furthermore according to Government Reports a child living with both biological parents is statistically Eight Times less likely to be abused then a child living without both biological parents.
Oh and that favorite statistic of Advocates that 20% of children will be abused.
Lets break it down ust a drop.
There are no seperate stats for molestation the basis for this claim is the fact that the year before this number surfaced Reports were that there were 3.2 million cases of abuse reported in the U.S.A.
However a closer look at these stats are somewhat startiling
Roughly One Third of these cases were unable to be substantiated at all, of the remaing two thirds that CPS considered valid only 25% were found out to be real cases of abuse. Thats right only 25% percent meaning 3 out of 4 were not.
What was the most prevalent form of abuse?
Emotional Abusewhich were approx. 59% of the allegations
Only 10.8% were allegations of sexual abuse.
A further interesting note is that approx. 1 out Five cases of child abuse originated from the internet!
Again Aries all thaese stats are real and availible to anyone willing to look around a drop online.July 25, 2011 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #790092
The following is a qoute from the SanDiego Grand jury in the Dale Akiki case in 93-94
“To recieve Federal Funds, states also must pass laws requiring specific people such as teachers, health care proffessionals and law enforcement officials to report suspected Child Abuse, backed up by penalties for failure to report. In effect this provision has made it a criminal offense for people not to report suspected Abuse. The result has been over-reporting of even the most absurd and impossible accusations”.
For those who state that people don’t really report falsely well here’s one example.
In 2002 the state of Illinois referred 3,772 cases of intentionally false reports to the Federal government.
In 1986 Douglas Besharov the first Director of the National Center on CHild Abuse and Neglect stated “We now face an imminent social tragedy: the nationwide collapse of child protective efforts caused by a flood of unfounded reports”.
Sadly more the 20 years later he has proven to be correct at least in those communities where unfounded reports were allowed to flourish.
B’H our adherence to the laws of mesirah and the psukim of courageous Rabbonim Have prevented our communites from self destructing as well.
Let us Daven that the Rabbonim continue ho have the strength to hold up aginst the extreme pressure being brought on them by well meaning but severly misguided individuals.July 25, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #790093
Ben levi, I will address you first. Because I have the facts which you don’t AND we don’t have statistics from FRUM organizations that are accurate because “Frum people don’t report”. How many times does this have to be said. Anyone can google the statistics that I myself received on a visit to Albany. And am NOT going to argue this point any further. I know what I am talking about. I am involved in the issue and you have NOT claimed that you are. So no matter what you say here, your knowledge and experience in this issue just does not compare. I know that you mean well, i honestly do, but you are just plain not seeing the full picture and therefor I have no intention of arguing the points any further. There is no point. You will all choose to believe what you choose to believe no matter what I say or others say or even what the Agudah and R’ Eliyashuv has said. I explained it further but unfortunately it wasn’t posted and there is no point in repeating it over and over again. I gave the facts. I can’t force feed them to you, no can I open your eyes and open your brains for you neither. I just pray that you don’t have to find these things out for yourself personally.
The only other thing that I would suggest is that you don’t close yourselves up so tightly and invite some victim/survivors into your lives. Listen to their side of the story. Listen how their lives were destroyed. Look at someone who’s life could have been saved had someone had the seichel to protect them appropriately.July 25, 2011 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #790094
First off get one thing out of the way. I am well aware of what Rav Elyashiv has to say on the matter having discussed it personally with several people who have flown to Eretz Yisroel specifically to discuss the matter with him.
Unfortunatley it seems that you have a real misunderstanding of his opinion.
As for you being involved.
Let me note for the record.
I have brought down real honest to goodness numbers from those who are involved in protecting children. I brought down the real numbers from a study you misqouted, I showed a little bit of how statistics are warped by those who have no understanding of what they are doing, I showed a little bit of the dangers involved in this matter.
You have been unwilling and dare I say unable to diprove a single one of them.
Let me just say that parents in the secular world are slowly and with much difficulty learning certain basics.
They are learning this because those without enough money to send there kids to Private schools are left with a completley destroyed Public School system.
There are Six cases of child abuse through neglect for every case of child molestation.
Do you get that?
6 to 1.
An elderly Rebbi of young children who was famous for the success he had as a Rebbi told someone going into the proffession.
“THe success I had as a Rebbi was because the first day of class as every precious neshoma walked into my classroom and I assumed responsibility for their care, I gave each and every one of them a Hug. A real Hug. And then the kids from broken homes, or the ones who had no siblings nebach, or the oes who’s parents had no time for them for any number of reason finally knew there was an adult who loved and cared for them.”
The rebbi continued.
“However realistically, If I was teaching today I would never ever dare do such a thing, In fact if I would be a Rebbi, which I doubt, I would be forced to take the same attitude many rabbeim today take no touching what so ever, not a hug, not a friendly pat on the back, nor a knip on the cheek. And yes I know that nebech there will be many a child lost because of this and yes we are already seeing this. What can I do my first responsibilty is to protect my wife and children from the crazy parent or the person who has some vendetta against me.”
Beware you are playing with fire.
As a father of young children I have a duty to ensure the chinuch that was availible to me remains availible to my children and the chinuch system that was built up through blood,sweat, and tears by the Yidden who came before me and were determined to raise their children Al Pi Tahros HaKodesh free from the influence of the secular world, does not go the way of the Public Schools.July 25, 2011 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #790095☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
A child’s assertion of abuse, especially if the same thing has been reported by a few children, is not merely an allegation.
Depending on the circumstances (do they know each other or have someone in common to coach them), multiple accusations might very well be raglayim l’davar.
I’m not sure what your question to me is – whether or not something is raglayim l’davar is obviously a halachic shaila and must be asked to a posek. Otherwise, no matter what the percentage of false accusations is, there would certainly be many more if every child was always believed with no other evidence.
You analogy to Leiby Kletzky a”h is beyond me.July 25, 2011 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #790096
You can say that again. I’m tired of people with an agenda using Leiby’s blood to further their agenda. The fact is both the police and DA said there was NO abuse involved, neither with him nor any previous cases with that perpetrator.July 25, 2011 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #790097
farrockaway; I find the assertion that “when kids say abuse occured they are right 95% of the time to be quite interesting.
The following is a qoute from the American Academy of Experts in traumatic Stress”
“An attempt to make up for decades of ignorance of childrens stories of abuse led to an unfettered and unaxamined acceptance of every childs story as true. By the close of the 1980’s the negative repercussions of this attitude were obvious.
Now infamous cases such as California vs Buckley (the McMartin Preschool case, 1990) New Jersey vs Michaels (1993) highlight the trauna and tragedy that can and do result from childrens stories being uncritically accepted as valid. The State of Montana saw its own version in Montana vs Harts (1993).
For a relativley brief period of time, the arguement seemed to revolve around whether children would deliberetley lie about s. abuse. An abundance of research has now disassembled the question when stated this way.
It has been learnt and amply documented that the issue of truth when applied to childrens statements is multi dimensional.
The focus on how childrens statements might differ from adults statements has compelled a scientific return to the understanding of child development in moral, cognitive,emotional, and social spheres.
Many svolumes have recently appeared on the suggestibility of children the creation of false or distorted memories motivation and other aspects of truth telling all of which attempt to explain why some childrens reports of s. abuse are not true even though the the child may appear sincere”.
I am sorry but the research on the topic gives lie to your assertion.
I might add, in light of the research currently availible one stands in awe of the wisdom of the Torah in prohibiting the acceptence of a childs testimony in court.July 25, 2011 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #790098
Aries: A question for you, if there is so many cases of abuse, there are so many therapists too. Why aren’t they helping?July 26, 2011 12:17 am at 12:17 am #790099
You should look-up “induced memories”. Also, look at the following articles from the Wall Street Journal:
Wall Street Journal 8/24/99:
That the Amiraults’ trials were held amid a wave of child-abuse prosecutions — a time when it would have taken a rare juror to resist the reigning imperative to “believe the children,” the children who had so bravely stepped up to the witness stand, and “children don’t lie” — evidently did not enter into the justices’ concerns. Neither, apparently, did all the available evidence that the investigative tactics employed in the Amiraults’ prosecution drove the children to extremes of fantasy, charges of marauding robots, murdered squirrels, attack by butcher knife — none of which seem to have raised any questions about the credibility of the child witnesses. For it was understood, thanks to the strange new legal standards in evidence in American courtrooms during the great mass-abuse trials pitting toddlers against the accused — most of them nursery school teachers — that the jury should feel free to disregard any parts of the witnesses’ testimony that were clearly incredible, the witnesses being children.
In such a time and atmosphere, in courtrooms where such standards for witness credibility prevailed and jurors were repeatedly reminded by the prosecutors of how much courage it had taken for these children to come forward, jurors voted to believe the children. In such ways did the false facts delivered by child witnesses result in convictions of the innocent, a matter with which the justices — engaged with their higher duty to the doctrine of finality — were not disposed to concern themselves.+
Across the nation courts have taken account of these matters. Kelly Michaels was freed from prison in New Jersey after serving five years, her conviction reversed. A federal courts freed Grant Snowden, the target of State Attorney Janet Reno prosecutions, after he served 11 years. And in Massachusetts, lower ourts freed Cheryl Amirault and her mother, Violet (who died after release).July 26, 2011 12:18 am at 12:18 am #790100
Wall Street Journal 10/20/03:
By now, too, the recognition that this prosecution — and other child abuse cases like it around the country — was built on concocted testimony has become widespread. So widespread that it is now the sort of thing studied in colleges and universities. The 49-year-old Mr. Amirault is about to finish his liberal arts degree in prison. Not long ago he had the surprising experience of opening a sociology textbook, and finding there — in a list of hysteria-driven prosecutions — the Amirault case. Things have certainly come far since the day he was carted off to do 30-40 years, a despised cast-off from society.
…July 26, 2011 12:19 am at 12:19 am #790101
Wall Street Journal 4/30/04:
Today he leaves prison, after serving 18 years on phony charges.
At 10 o’clock this morning, Gerald Amirault will walk out of his Massachusetts jail, a free man.
It is a joyous day for this prisoner, behind bars for 18 years after his 1986 conviction on charges of child sex abuse based on fantastical testimony dragged from pre-schoolers. Gerald’s mother Violet and his sister Cheryl served eight years before their convictions were overturned in 1995.
Our system isn’t always immune to destructive pressures, and the child-abuse prosecutions of the 1980s were one such instance. Mr. Amirault’s prosecution was driven by the passions of the times — in this case, the belief that child predators lurked everywhere and that the child “victims” must be believed at all costs.
Along the way, the law was stood on its head. The rules of evidence were changed to accommodate the prosecution; the burden of proof was put on the accused. Four- and five-year-olds were coached to say what adults wanted to hear. All this was done in the name of virtue, with the result being the kind of catastrophic miscarriage of justice we saw in Mr. Amirault’s case. There never was any truth to the charges brought against him. Nor was there anything that would, in saner times, have passed for evidence in an American courtroom.
…July 26, 2011 1:05 am at 1:05 am #790102
a mamin, Therapists can only help those who come! Victims who do not have support of the community and the Rabbonim shy away from therapy because if their own immediate community don’t have the seichel to believe and support them they shut down and don’t reach out any more. Lets take that a step further, if you go to a Frum therapist that you can afford, basically through a Jewish Agency or a group that get referrals from Rabbonim and are following their p’sak NOT to report, can not do as much as necessary to help them.
So if no one will reach out to a child that is being molested in the home, or believe a child that was molested in the school who is going to take that child to therapy?July 26, 2011 1:38 am at 1:38 am #790103
The one statistic you attemtpted to qoute was shown to be twisted and flat our untrue.
multiple posters have pointed out real factual problems with your approach.
Why is it that you refuse to ansewer them?
Yes I know you will attack me.
Thats my point while I and other posters have brought up real substantive issues and shied away from attacking you have refused to follow suit.
I would think that the difference in approach says it all.July 26, 2011 2:52 am at 2:52 am #790104lesschumrasParticipant
I’m curious. Are you saying that thee are no child molestations in the frum community?
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