June 23, 2008 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #587871
The gemara in Yoma daf pey vav amud beis says if you know someone is a rasha and he pretends to be a tzaddik (i guess in public) there is a mitzva to publicize the fact that he is b’emes a rasha so that there wont be a chilul hashem.P’shat is so that when (lo aleynu) bad stuff occur to him people will not say that it is not worth it to be a tzaddik.
Could somene please be m’vaer to me what are the perameters of when someone could be considered a rasha in regards to this halacha.July 25, 2008 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #643066
HEAD IN THE SANDMember
IF HE IS BADJuly 25, 2008 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #643067
Thinking – This is why there is a special thread in the Coffee Room regarding the pro-freikeit commentors. No one should think they represent Klal Yisroel. We must call them out.
Thanks for the maar hamokom.July 25, 2008 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #643068
According to the G’mara the purpose for identifying r’shaim is so that people will realize when they are punished that it’s because of their actions. How does this apply to posters on a forum? How do other posters know what’s happening to these so-called pro-freikeit posters, such that they’d C”V think that tzadikim are punished for no reason?July 27, 2008 2:30 am at 2:30 am #643069
edc- are you implying that the the list you created, of pro-freikeit commentators, are reshaim as well??
what’s coming next?July 27, 2008 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #643070
willi, Don’t take it too far. I C’V wouldn’t call them reshayim. But its important to call out those that post ideas that are in contradiction with the Torah, despite their coaching their ugly words in Judaism.July 27, 2008 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #643071
so, edc, why do you think you represent klal yisroel?July 28, 2008 2:17 am at 2:17 am #643072
notorah (aka lesschumras): I don’t. Calling out a rasha doesn’t make one the representative of Klal Yisroel, but merely its servant.July 28, 2008 4:47 am at 4:47 am #643073
Please answer my question in the previous post: the reason given in the gemara for calling out a rasha who poses as a tzadik is so that when bad things happen to this rasha, people won’t think that Hashem C”V punishes tzadikim. So, assuming that you believe the “pro-freikeit” posters mentioned earlier are r’shaim, please explain how this reason applies to anonymous posters on a message board. Specifically, if you believe that these posters will be punished, how will other posters become aware of the punishments meted to these “pro-freikeit” posters?
Also, according to this source, r’shaim should be identified but not censored. Please explain, then, why you think that the “pro-freikeit” posters should not even be allowed to post.July 28, 2008 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #643074
anon for this, I already did. Your assumption is bad. See my 2nd post of this page.July 28, 2008 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #643075
I think I understand your answer to my first question: I believe you are saying that those who post against the Torah should be called out, even though the reason given in the g’mara which you cited as a “maar hamakom” doesn’t apply. (This is assuming that the aforementioned posters really do post against the Torah).
But you haven’t answered my second question: Why should these posters be censored? That’s not mentioned in the g’mara at all. Unless your call to censor them was just a sensational way of calling them out.July 28, 2008 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #643076
Sometimes, I think I am on a different planet when reading some of these postings. Is “edc” serious when he considers the people who are writing matters that HE thinks are pro-freikeit -in itself a stupid assertion- to be reshoim? Since when is HE the arbiter of “risha’ ? And “mi somcho leish” to say that all the writers like cantoresq, a pashute yid, illini07 and others say things that are in contradiction to Torah?
This view is so extreme that “edc’ would surely have rejected Hillel Hazoken because he made a pruzbul or a hetter mechira.What a ridiculous question and a very rdiculous comment by “edc”July 28, 2008 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #643077
I would ask a Rav and not follow the opinions of someone you met in Cyberspace. Even one called Yeshiva World News.July 29, 2008 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #643078
EDC- unless you’re ready to identify yourself when making your harsh accusations, at best, you are no better than those you are pointing fingers at.
A perfect example, just this morning, I was taking the express bus to work. Most of the passengers were either reading or spacing out and on gets two obvious frum Jews. They must have both been deaf because they were sitting next to each other and shouting at each other like they were in a Bais Medrash. While they were quoting M’silas Y’sharim, g’maras and other s’forim to prove their points to each other, the irony is that it was the passengers who displayed extraordinary midos. While the passengers were clearly annoyed, not one made a commotion and breathed a sigh of relief when these fellows got off at their stop.July 31, 2008 2:08 am at 2:08 am #643080
A Sheep without a SpleenMember
You brilliant masterminds. It’s so nice you have the right hashkafos in life but yet are so clueless which religion you are following. I believe your question stems from the fact that YOU interpret the gemara as saying that you should point out reshaim so that no one should think a bad thing is happening to a tzadik.
Do you think you are smarter than Moshe? Maybe only an Amora?
Berachos- Moshe asked Hashem, how is it that good things happen to reshaim and bad things happen to tzadikim?
God- ” be quiet”
Gemara- Because they get their s’char or punishment in olam haba.August 19, 2008 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #643082
The Big OneParticipant
Thinking, if you follow the gemara in Yoma daf pey vav and call out a rasha who pretends to be a tzaddik you better be prepared for all the liberals to call you a fanatic!March 15, 2009 5:28 am at 5:28 am #643084
that must be what you are and can’t look up rashi on the spot who explains it that way.March 15, 2009 6:01 am at 6:01 am #643085
In a case like this, one must ask a shaila to a rav who is knowledgeable. One doesn’t apply negative actions unless one is sure. Otherwise, it’s just machlokes and sin’ah. In general, one must be very careful when using negative middos. Pinchas didn’t do his heroic deed until confirming with Moshe Rabbeinu that he had the halacha correctly.March 15, 2009 6:06 am at 6:06 am #643086
The netziv said that the sin’as chinam by the Second Temple was that many people accused others of being Tzedukim or other breakaway sects without proper justification. That’s what destroyed the beis hamikdash. Unless one knows for certain(ie by speakijng to a rav and making sure his action is correct), one is liable to be oveir terrible aveiros. Machlokes is so terrible that innocent babies died in the machlokes of korach. One must appose reshaim. but one mustn’t assume everyone’s a rasha just because they disagree with your point of view. That’s why we have rabbonim and gedolim.March 15, 2009 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #643087
I think that before an overly enthusiastic “tzaddik” starts pointing out who all the reshaim are, he had better be very certain that he is himself without blemish, lest someone point out his own flaws in a public manner. I can almost see the look of glee on such a person’s face as he “outs” the other guy. Better to have a private talk with the “rasha” who apepars to be a tzaddik, and let him know that his actions do not shtim with his appearance to others, and he will eventually be found out. Maybe he will do teshuvah.April 20, 2009 1:47 am at 1:47 am #643089
Just for the record, the preceding comment by “Joseph” is not mine, but that of another poster. (See the “Member” profile for the difference.)April 21, 2009 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #643090
Joseph, is that “another poster” or do you mean an imposter?April 21, 2009 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #643091
joseph means another poster, who thereby, by definition, is an imposterApril 21, 2009 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #643092
humor alert, feivel!April 22, 2009 2:57 am at 2:57 am #643093
Real Joseph: that would explain your sudden change of attitude.
Mods, can some one please block the fake Joseph?April 22, 2009 3:11 am at 3:11 am #643094
after reding a lot of the blogs it seems to me that most of the blogers are Mods in disguiseApril 22, 2009 3:30 am at 3:30 am #643095
mw13, why block? hes so funny. (if you insist, maybe bring back the F, but dont block)April 22, 2009 3:33 am at 3:33 am #643096
dogo: you hit the nail on the head! btw welcome to the CR!April 22, 2009 3:44 am at 3:44 am #643097
thanx, and btw are you a Mod!? Or am I?!April 22, 2009 3:47 am at 3:47 am #643098
after reding a lot of the blogs
Did any of them end up getting married?April 22, 2009 3:49 am at 3:49 am #643099
dogo: if i answered that, i might loose my mod license! oh & btw we have a thread for new members, so everyone can properly welcome you! head there and post so everyone knows your new!April 22, 2009 3:50 am at 3:50 am #643100April 22, 2009 3:52 am at 3:52 am #643101
well, i tried to red them and the Mods stoped me for privicy reasons (even with the shidduch crises)April 22, 2009 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #643103
Jax: your license, loose? how do you loosen a modding license?
I think I’m gonna apply to be the CR spellchecker. Its pathetic.
And btw, dogo, you spell privicy like this: PRIVACY.April 22, 2009 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #643104
thanx, oh i “thaought” that the mods also spellcheck, so just in case they weren’t working hard enough i gave them more to work on.April 22, 2009 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #643105
spellchecker in session.
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