Chilul Hashem

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  • #587871

    Thinking
    Member

    The gemara in Yoma daf pey vav amud beis says if you know someone is a rasha and he pretends to be a tzaddik (i guess in public) there is a mitzva to publicize the fact that he is b’emes a rasha so that there wont be a chilul hashem.P’shat is so that when (lo aleynu) bad stuff occur to him people will not say that it is not worth it to be a tzaddik.

    Could somene please be m’vaer to me what are the perameters of when someone could be considered a rasha in regards to this halacha.

    #643066

    IF HE IS BAD

    #643067

    chachom
    Participant

    Thinking – This is why there is a special thread in the Coffee Room regarding the pro-freikeit commentors. No one should think they represent Klal Yisroel. We must call them out.

    Thanks for the maar hamokom.

    #643068

    anon for this
    Participant

    edc,

    According to the G’mara the purpose for identifying r’shaim is so that people will realize when they are punished that it’s because of their actions. How does this apply to posters on a forum? How do other posters know what’s happening to these so-called pro-freikeit posters, such that they’d C”V think that tzadikim are punished for no reason?

    #643069

    willi
    Member

    edc- are you implying that the the list you created, of pro-freikeit commentators, are reshaim as well??

    what’s coming next?

    #643070

    chachom
    Participant

    willi, Don’t take it too far. I C’V wouldn’t call them reshayim. But its important to call out those that post ideas that are in contradiction with the Torah, despite their coaching their ugly words in Judaism.

    #643071

    lesschumras
    Participant

    so, edc, why do you think you represent klal yisroel?

    #643072

    chachom
    Participant

    notorah (aka lesschumras): I don’t. Calling out a rasha doesn’t make one the representative of Klal Yisroel, but merely its servant.

    #643073

    anon for this
    Participant

    edc,

    Please answer my question in the previous post: the reason given in the gemara for calling out a rasha who poses as a tzadik is so that when bad things happen to this rasha, people won’t think that Hashem C”V punishes tzadikim. So, assuming that you believe the “pro-freikeit” posters mentioned earlier are r’shaim, please explain how this reason applies to anonymous posters on a message board. Specifically, if you believe that these posters will be punished, how will other posters become aware of the punishments meted to these “pro-freikeit” posters?

    Also, according to this source, r’shaim should be identified but not censored. Please explain, then, why you think that the “pro-freikeit” posters should not even be allowed to post.

    #643074

    chachom
    Participant

    anon for this, I already did. Your assumption is bad. See my 2nd post of this page.

    #643075

    anon for this
    Participant

    edc,

    I think I understand your answer to my first question: I believe you are saying that those who post against the Torah should be called out, even though the reason given in the g’mara which you cited as a “maar hamakom” doesn’t apply. (This is assuming that the aforementioned posters really do post against the Torah).

    But you haven’t answered my second question: Why should these posters be censored? That’s not mentioned in the g’mara at all. Unless your call to censor them was just a sensational way of calling them out.

    #643076

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Sometimes, I think I am on a different planet when reading some of these postings. Is “edc” serious when he considers the people who are writing matters that HE thinks are pro-freikeit -in itself a stupid assertion- to be reshoim? Since when is HE the arbiter of “risha’ ? And “mi somcho leish” to say that all the writers like cantoresq, a pashute yid, illini07 and others say things that are in contradiction to Torah?

    This view is so extreme that “edc’ would surely have rejected Hillel Hazoken because he made a pruzbul or a hetter mechira.What a ridiculous question and a very rdiculous comment by “edc”

    #643077

    jphone
    Member

    I would ask a Rav and not follow the opinions of someone you met in Cyberspace. Even one called Yeshiva World News.

    #643078

    cherrybim
    Participant

    EDC- unless you’re ready to identify yourself when making your harsh accusations, at best, you are no better than those you are pointing fingers at.

    A perfect example, just this morning, I was taking the express bus to work. Most of the passengers were either reading or spacing out and on gets two obvious frum Jews. They must have both been deaf because they were sitting next to each other and shouting at each other like they were in a Bais Medrash. While they were quoting M’silas Y’sharim, g’maras and other s’forim to prove their points to each other, the irony is that it was the passengers who displayed extraordinary midos. While the passengers were clearly annoyed, not one made a commotion and breathed a sigh of relief when these fellows got off at their stop.

    #643080

    You brilliant masterminds. It’s so nice you have the right hashkafos in life but yet are so clueless which religion you are following. I believe your question stems from the fact that YOU interpret the gemara as saying that you should point out reshaim so that no one should think a bad thing is happening to a tzadik.

    Do you think you are smarter than Moshe? Maybe only an Amora?

    Berachos- Moshe asked Hashem, how is it that good things happen to reshaim and bad things happen to tzadikim?

    God- ” be quiet”

    Gemara- Because they get their s’char or punishment in olam haba.

    #643082

    The Big One
    Participant

    Thinking, if you follow the gemara in Yoma daf pey vav and call out a rasha who pretends to be a tzaddik you better be prepared for all the liberals to call you a fanatic!

    #643084

    Thinking
    Member

    goyteh,

    that must be what you are and can’t look up rashi on the spot who explains it that way.

    #643085

    Jothar
    Member

    In a case like this, one must ask a shaila to a rav who is knowledgeable. One doesn’t apply negative actions unless one is sure. Otherwise, it’s just machlokes and sin’ah. In general, one must be very careful when using negative middos. Pinchas didn’t do his heroic deed until confirming with Moshe Rabbeinu that he had the halacha correctly.

    #643086

    Jothar
    Member

    The netziv said that the sin’as chinam by the Second Temple was that many people accused others of being Tzedukim or other breakaway sects without proper justification. That’s what destroyed the beis hamikdash. Unless one knows for certain(ie by speakijng to a rav and making sure his action is correct), one is liable to be oveir terrible aveiros. Machlokes is so terrible that innocent babies died in the machlokes of korach. One must appose reshaim. but one mustn’t assume everyone’s a rasha just because they disagree with your point of view. That’s why we have rabbonim and gedolim.

    #643087

    oomis
    Participant

    I think that before an overly enthusiastic “tzaddik” starts pointing out who all the reshaim are, he had better be very certain that he is himself without blemish, lest someone point out his own flaws in a public manner. I can almost see the look of glee on such a person’s face as he “outs” the other guy. Better to have a private talk with the “rasha” who apepars to be a tzaddik, and let him know that his actions do not shtim with his appearance to others, and he will eventually be found out. Maybe he will do teshuvah.

    #643089

    Joseph
    Participant

    Just for the record, the preceding comment by “Joseph” is not mine, but that of another poster. (See the “Member” profile for the difference.)

    #643090

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Joseph, is that “another poster” or do you mean an imposter?

    #643091

    feivel
    Participant

    joseph means another poster, who thereby, by definition, is an imposter

    #643092

    moish01
    Member

    humor alert, feivel!

    #643093

    mw13
    Participant

    Real Joseph: that would explain your sudden change of attitude.

    Mods, can some one please block the fake Joseph?

    #643094

    dogo
    Participant

    after reding a lot of the blogs it seems to me that most of the blogers are Mods in disguise

    #643095

    kapusta
    Participant

    mw13, why block? hes so funny. (if you insist, maybe bring back the F, but dont block)

    *kapusta*

    #643096

    Jax
    Member

    dogo: you hit the nail on the head! btw welcome to the CR!

    #643097

    dogo
    Participant

    thanx, and btw are you a Mod!? Or am I?!

    #643098

    beacon
    Participant

    after reding a lot of the blogs

    Did any of them end up getting married?

    #643099

    Jax
    Member

    dogo: if i answered that, i might loose my mod license! oh & btw we have a thread for new members, so everyone can properly welcome you! head there and post so everyone knows your new!

    #643100

    kapusta
    Participant

    beacon, any of who???

    *kapusta*

    #643101

    dogo
    Participant

    well, i tried to red them and the Mods stoped me for privicy reasons (even with the shidduch crises)

    #643103

    mepal
    Member

    Jax: your license, loose? how do you loosen a modding license?

    I think I’m gonna apply to be the CR spellchecker. Its pathetic.

    And btw, dogo, you spell privicy like this: PRIVACY.

    #643104

    dogo
    Participant

    thanx, oh i “thaought” that the mods also spellcheck, so just in case they weren’t working hard enough i gave them more to work on.

    #643105

    mepal
    Member

    thought.

    spellchecker in session.

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