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How would you punish your child and for what?
If he misbehaved, I would ask him an exceedingly vague question which is unanswerable due to its lack of detail.
The Haflaah explains the passage uvocharta bechaim, chose life as always emphasize the positive.
Chinuch and discipline are opposite sides of a coin. Chinuch is treaching your child or talmid what to do. Discipline is teaching what NOT to do. In fact, discipline does not teach. It controls. It has its place. When this becomes the primary mode of raising children, we have a state of confusion over our mission and responsibility.
Discipline can sometimes be used to teach, but this requires creativity. Typical punishments can result, at best, in the inhibition of unwanted behavior. But that fails to teach.
It is also noteworthy that the use of reward and punishment is primitive. It is useful in the training of animals, pets, laboratory animals. That is all that can be done with these creatures. I would like my children to know that behaving properly is something to be valued. That does not happen with an external reward, nor would punishment accomplish that.
Sometumes we withhold what they desire, no ice cream for you.
So, schar v’onesh is now considered ‘primitive’.
A pity G-d didn’t realize in advance that His Torah would become outdated in the modern, civilized era.Logician:
The concept of s’char ve’onesh is not at all what we are doing with reward and punishment in our child rearing.
And, according to your expertise, what is the message of Antignus Ish Socho – Al tiheyu ka’avodim hameshamshim es horav al m’nas lekabel prass etc.?
My Torah says to give petch. My Shulchan Aruch paskens to give petch. Both are bfeirush.
Does anyone have a different Torah or Shulchan Aruch??
I agree wholeheartedly with logician; Hashem created a system where we begin our journey towards Him through fear of punishment and desire for reward. This is not only healthy, but incorporates a deep seated base existence that each of us has. we have an animal element, and a neshoma…a nefesh bahamis and sichlis. It is arrogance to say that we’re “above” schar veonesh and only want to do mitzvos lishma, as the kotzker rebbe said “yirah without ahavah is missing in shlaimua, but ahavah without yirah is nothing”. Motivation may come and go, but it is fear of punishment that never will fall to prompt a person to do the right thing and refrain from that which is forbidden.
I agree that positive/negative reinforcement and conditioning are tools that we use with animals – i disagree that they are primitive, because part of us is animalistic in nature and requires taming. Self styled intellectuals who feel that such concepts are insults perhaps have not grappled with powerful urges…maybe they dress up these passions in pseudo sophistry and become wine connoisseurs instead of mere drunkards, lehavdil “romantics” instead of philanderers, etc… All the while never addressing their animal instincts and the need to control them, and to ultimately convert them into drives for avodas Hashem.
Antitgonus clearly meant that if that is one’s sole motivation, it is lacking, but not that it isn’t necessary as a starting point.
Look what happened to Adoniyahu
I can’t speak to the facts, since you did not explain your perceived distinction
But it could and should beThe Torah is predicated on the concept of schar v’onesh
I do not need any expertise, nor do I need to to ‘explain away’ a Mishnah in Avos, in order to state that confidentlyAccording to the holy Shlah, scar veonash, reward and punishment, the second belief of three according to the Baal Haikarim, is a measuring stick of the amount of nachas ruach we give to Hashem.
Little I know’s vert is right on point as to positive motivation and role modeling being a much more effective behavioral tool than punishment. Where the latter might occasionally be required, for a segment of the tzibur who DO allow for limited internet access, I would suspect that restricting that access might be the single greatest motivator. Certainly more so than physical “assault”.
UJM:
My Torah was given at Har Sinai. I wonder the source of your Torah. Firstly, tell me where it says to give petch? It is not included among the 613 Mitzvos, not according to the Rambam, Ramban, Sefer Hachinuch, and Shulchan Aruch does not give any such mitzvah. It is sometimes an option, and one needs to be aware that this is controlling, not teaching. The wanton and frivolous obsession with negative consequences is neither effective, nor is it condoned in Torah anywhere. You may study Hilchos Talmud Torah, whether SA, Rav SA, or anyone else. Find it. It is a last resort for inhibiting behavior. It doesn’t teach. You wish to see this practice as mitzvah, and seem to dive at anyhting that sounds like an argument. But I will not fall for that ruse.
As one of the few on the CR with a classical education, including 6 years of Latin, I don’t find it surprising that many of you are confusing discipline with punishment.
Discipline comes from discipulus, the Latin word for pupil (Masculine 2nd).
Discipline is the teaching someone to obey and adhere to a set of standards of behavior. Violation of those standards may result in punishment. If the teaching is successful there will be no violations or punishment meted out,The patch en tuchus is not discipline, it is punishment.
At the risk of arguing that this is semantics, I believe it is just that – if we can agree that punishments are necessary when infractions are perpetrated, then it is logical that those punishments are part of the disciplinary inculcation that CT was referring to. The punishing act, be it tangential (time out, etc) or corporeal, has the effect of discipline, since the child has learned that when he does A, B(negative consequence) happens. He therefore is trained not to do B.
Hitting children is a touchy subject with a lot of reactionary speech that is born of trauma and/or lack of education. It serves no purpose to discuss in this forum the merits and shortcomings of the practice and its relevant sources, whether it’s a mitzvah, a necessary evil, or ill advised in our times. We’ve been down this road before from the same poster, who unfortunately seems to have a preoccupation with this subject. I wish her the best.
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I caution anyone who might be offended or who has experienced trauma in this regard to not read the following paragraph.
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It is worthwhile to mention the gemara in makos daf 8a, which says very openly that it is a mitzvah to hit one’s child even if they are learned and not expected to do something wrong, because of the Pasuk of yosir bincha vayinechecha (interesting that chazal derive this mitzvah from here and not from chosech shivto). In previous discussions of this matter, this gemara was not mentioned for some reasonThis also obviates all attempts at “drushifying” chosech shivto etc
CTL:
First, I note that I also possess advanced academic degrees. And I have studied the subject matter extensively.
Secondly, I must say boldly that I agree with you. You are linguistically correct in noting the true definition of “discipline”. I confess that I was using the word in its usual spoken vernacular. And, you are correct – punishment is not discipline.
I find it is prudent to rely on the merits of one’s argument, regardless of academic training or the lack thereof (I’m not sayinf CT was doing that…but it sounds like this is the direction the conversation is going in)
> Does anyone have a different Torah or Shulchan Aruch??
I do. This is surely depends on a person, on environment, and, consequently, on a generation. I quoted before R Ouerbach reacting to a student’s comment that there is tahanun today by whispering to the gabbai “skip the tachanun”, while exactly same scene a generation before caused for mocking the student’s inappropriate remarks.
Maybe in a generation where people were treated harshly, a little petch was felt one way, and in a generation where people travel in their own cars, you might damage that person’s self-esteem …
Gemora discusses “luxury” Persian bathrooms – I don’t think any of you would go into one today
Also, we need to understand the motivation for the question, because I think this is about the process not about one particular action:
are we talking about a parent who never says a bad word and never punishes a kid, and there is some behavior that you think requires a corrective action?
OR, are we talking about a parent who berates the kid all the time, never says anything good, and now sees that the kid is not listening anymore and the parent wants to hit the kid (more often)?@LittleIKnow
As I started my post……
“As one of the few……”
I know that I am not the only CR member with such an education.
I know others have advanced degrees. My classical education came well before my advanced degrees, back when I was going to my Junior High and High School years at the local Yeshiva (no longer exists) we took our core academics at a top nationally ranked local public high school 4 hours each day. My 6 Years of Latin were 5 days a week in grades 7-12 taught by an old fashioned Latin Master from Yale.As for ‘usual spoken vernacular,’ this is the perpetual problem of connotation vs. denotation. After decades of practicing law, I constantly have to point out that if it is not in the 4 corners of the document/contract it doesn’t exist. Law school students, professors, authors and often losing side attorneys may argue concepts such as legislative intent; but what is set down in writing usually holds (until some appellate court decides to make new law for political or other reasons).
Eishes, > i am not against petch, but i am against my mothers petch and discipline
Rambam writen in Deos that one should bend the other way trying to fix a middah. When you are affected by a bad middah, it is natural to you to try just to “decrease’ it without fully feeling the wrong of this approach. As you are already aware of the problems you had, it is imperative to you to err the other way towards chesed.
quoting from R Twersky on a topic of one abusive parent:
proper discipline is NOT abusive (his capitalization).. Ramabam (Hil Ishus 16) husband and wife must address each other respectfully. A person who violates this halakha cannot eb considered frum any more than .. any other halakhah. .. Abusive behavior of any kind – verbal, emotional, physical, .. shold be nipped in the bud… promptly seek counseling on how to .. arrestiit and prevent from progressingCtLawyer > we took our core academics at a top nationally ranked local public high school
How did it work – legally and logistically? Were you double-enrolled into a public school and obligated into their full program or they let you take some classes? If part of the reason for the Jewish school is to avoid undue influences, how did that work? was your contact to public school classmates limited in some way?
I am comparing with my own interests in giving kids access to general online education combined with Jewish schooling. The first part works in general, but I can’t find Jewish schools interested in giving kids such options that loosen their controls. Similarly, most public resources are made available as all or nothing. I’ve read about a couple of places whether such approach was tried – a yeshiva in LA, a BY in Colorado.
eishis, yes, my (non-professional) suggestion would be to NOT punish them unless they literally run in front of a zooming truck. Even then, you can simply stop them from running, ask the truck to stop, or take them to play to a safer place to begin with.
An old Jewish book, whose author I can’t remember, lists multiple suggestions how to deal with anger. Among them, for parents – use positive attitude to deal with problem: instead of punishing for bad behavior, reward them for good behavior, or just for lack of bad one. Create competition between kids to encourage learning.
Try this for a month, if you are afraid that long-term lack of punishment will damage them. Write down how many times you give a reward or punishment daily to remind yourself to be increasing rewards and decreasing punishments, as it is very easy to go to a default behavior.
TLIK: “I wonder the source of your Torah. Firstly, tell me where it says to give petch? It is not included among the 613 Mitzvos, not according to the Rambam, Ramban, Sefer Hachinuch, and Shulchan Aruch does not give any such mitzvah.”
Is this pasuk missing from your Tanach (Mishlei 13:24)?: חוֹשֵֹ֣ךְ שִׁ֖בְטוֹ שׂוֹנֵ֣א בְנ֑וֹ וְ֜אֹהֲב֗וֹ שִֽׁחֲר֥וֹ מוּסָֽר:
Is your Shulchan Aruch missing Orach Chayim 551:18? The Shulchan Aruch makes a special point to say not to hit children during “the three weeks” between the 17th of Tammuz and Tisha Bi’Av. This makes clear that parents and teachers, when appropriately hitting the rest of the year, is to be for the purpose of education. The Shulchan Aruch says not to hit like an enemy nor to hit cruelly; the adult should hit the child with a small strap (Yorah Daya 245:10). Pischai Tshuva on this expands further on how to hit a child.
Ashkenazim do permit hitting a child till the age of twenty two. However several complex issues enter the question after the child is bar/bas mitzva [Yora Daya 240:19-20, Rama, Pischay Tshuva and Birchay Yosef and Rambam Dayos]. Hitting a child over bar/bas mitzva would be a possible option only if it is for the pure sake of chinuch. The parent must make an objective evaluation of the child’s nature. The hitting is not allowed if the child is married.
@Always
How did it work?
We were all local residents who lived home with our parents. No dorm back then. It was the height of the Baby Boom entering Junior High and High School. The public Schools were on double session, 8-12 and 12-4/ We attended Yeshiva from 7:15-11:45, walked the few blocks to the public school and attended the afternoon session. We were at the pre-collegiate high school (the other was commercial). Probably 90% white, 55% Jewish. Lots of Euro-traditional Orthodox Jews in the public schools back then. Schools were closed on RH and YK, and all days of Yuntif for Sukkos, Pesach and Shavous were excused absences, Probably 70% Jewish faculty. My mother was an elementary school principal in the system, later Director of Special Ed and retired as Asst. Superintendent of Schools.
Things were much more rigid than in modern times. Boys had to wear Jackets and ties, girls had to wear dresses or skirts below the knee. Schmutz just wasn’t a big issue back thenWhat chinuch?! Today everyone has “trauma” and we only have to love and accept them and any actions they engage in so that they have license to grow up selfish brats because of all their “trauma”. Just read all these “chinuch” articles in Mishpacha, Ami and Binah by these gazillion psychologists, therapist, psychotherapists, physiatrists, etc. You’ll gain much insight in the non-chinuch of today.
ujm:
You wrote: “Is this pasuk missing from your Tanach (Mishlei 13:24)?: חוֹשֵֹ֣ךְ שִׁ֖בְטוֹ שׂוֹנֵ֣א בְנ֑וֹ וְ֜אֹהֲב֗וֹ שִֽׁחֲר֥וֹ מוּסָֽר:
It is outstanding. What is tragic is that you misinterpret it. I suggest you visit the writings of Rav Shlomo Wolbe ZT”L. He writes this in the Alei Shur. It is also found in the sefer Zriyah Ubinyan Bechinuch – a short sefer that is actuakky an excerpt of a few of his maamorim on chinuch. The use of שבטו is as a last resort, and that is why Shlomo Hamelech stated this in this manner. He never outrightly instructed to hit children. Chazal explain that this is not punishment, as use of a strap that causes pain is prohibited. Rather, a shoelace is used so it relays a messdage without punishing.
Next, your Shulchan Aruch seems to be precisely like mine. It doesn’t say to hit your child. It emphasizes that during the three weeks, one should not even potch when it is the appropriate thing to do. You then continue to expound on the limited use of petch, a point that I have made persistently. Yes, a potch has its place (well, you know what I mean). But too many here consider giving that potch as obligatory as davening three times a day. That is not at all what the Torah says anywhere.
Your last paragraph provides further support to my position. One must be completely cognizant of the result of giving the potch. If it is educationally productive, it is okay. If it produces resistance, traumatizes, injures, etc., it is forbidden. Again, there are times when behavior control is the immediate goal. I postulate that this is a tiny fraction of what we need to be doing as parents and mechanchim.
Spare the rod, spoil the child as they translated it. The serpent was cursed with eating dust, even though it is available everywhere, as explained by the Chidushei Harim, Hashem said to him, here is your food and don’t bother Me.
> it doesnt make sense to suddenly from being a {control freak dictating monster and} controling mother to a helpless mother who will just be mafkir her kids,
It does make sense to Rambam Hilhos Deos 2:2
אִם הָיָה רָחוֹק לַקָּצֶה הָאֶחָד יַרְחִיק עַצְמוֹ לַקָּצֶה הַשֵּׁנִי וְיִנְהֹג בּוֹ זְמַן רַב עַד שֶׁיַּחֲזֹר בּוֹ לַדֶּרֶךְ הַטּוֹבָה וְהִיא מִדָּה בֵּינוֹנִית שֶׁבְּכָל דֵּעָה וְדֵעָהA person who swayed in the direction of one of the extremes should move in the direction of the opposite extreme, and accustom himself to that for a long time, until he has returned to the proper path, which is the midpoint for each and every temperament.
ujm, do you have any halakhot or evidence how often would, say, Chofetz Chaim or R Feinstein hit or insult their students to fulfil their obligations as you quoted? Was it daily/weekly/annually? Maybe they were not invloved with tinokot directly, how did they advise people who asked them?
eishis > i dont sit the entire day punishing, i only do it when i have no other choice
could you do a count in your head for the last 24 hours: how many times you interacted positively and negatively with kids?
> i understand the rambam. but i think here specifically its not applicable
ok, Mod-29 may be right, I give up…If it is not a troll, Rav Dr Twerski recommends Nefesh Organization 201-384-0084 to find a frum psychologists who can help look at the issues without personal bias.
The problem today is that parents cannot enforce boundaries. They are too lazy to do that for misbehaving children when they are young and when these children get older and they grow up selfish and spoiled the parents certainly cannot enforce boundaries at that point. Many parents today are simply scared of their kids. So the kids end up getting and doing what they want.
Chinuch starts from a young age, you cannot expect children to listen after they already developed themselves. Consistency is very important, you cannot let yourself be swayed by kids to change what you feel is right or wrong. Punishment for misbehaving should not be only an empty threat, it must be enforced.
At the same time, parents must respect children for who they are, with their own characteristics and individuality, and not force them into a mold.
The Abarbanel on lo sisa alav chet says, don’t call them names and label them only critisize their actions or behavior which can be changed and as mentioned above emohasize the positive.
eishes chayil: > yes i was raised with severe punishments and i do have some after shocks or scars from it and have some minor issues. i am also a bit unstable when it comes to punishments etc. all an outcome from the way my mother raised and disciplined me
leah, i remember it well, i remember how you suffered. i remember well how your mother belted you in the school yard during recess time, but i also know how your daughters are terrified and frightened of you and the way you raise them, and live with fear and scare. I think the time has come for you and you should not be to your kids the same monster your mother was to you, and already stop with your way of discipline and stop being so cruel.
please leah, they are hashems kids. dont let your mothers discipline toward you mirror onto your poor zisseh and lichtigeh, teirereh neshamos. and let your kinderlech get raised how they should, and not live with terror and fear
I’m sure he heard it from you between classes this morning.
eishis chayil wrote: my kids have no fear and i am not like my mother, though i am strict and do have issues discipline and lose control often. i am still not a monster like you called me.
well, me you cant fool. i heard from your daughter exactly what goes on in your house and how things work there, sorry for catching your lies here. time to admit how you literally torture them.
you can punish however you wish but don’t come here to pretend how you need help disciplining when you don’t want to change your attitude and behavior a bit.
if you really do want help then stop hitting teenagers and stop altogether your harsh punishments, nothing wrong if you wish from time to time give some punishment for a young kid that really needs it or even a small slap but if its done more then that than you are cruel and abusive and nothing less than your mother
SORRY IF I HURT OR OFFENDED YOU
Is this teenage daughter of urs single? (Asking for a friend in shiddichim)
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