June 23, 2011 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #597590sheinMember
I was having a discussion in another thread with Moderator-80 about Shmiras HaLoshan and he noted Baruch Hashem how much improved over the last 20 years Klal Yisroel has become in the inyan of avoiding loshan hora, ever since the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation began its remarkably successful mass education of Shmiras HaLoshan. This is to be commended and imitated.
Therefore, I today propose the creation of the Chofetz Chaim Tznius Foundation with the high goal of educating Klal Yisroel on inyanei tznius. As Moderator-80 sadly noted, over the past same 20 years when the CCHF greatly improved our defenses against loshan hora, the matziv with tznius has greatly deteriorated to the point where (as Mod-80 put it) “the frummest women, even young Rebbitzens, dressing in a manner (well I cant say) and its not only accepted but expected.” And it being so bad that “today a proper Yirei Shomayim man should probably not attend a Chasunah” (to once again quote our great moderator). And while, like he said, we must highly commend the true Aishes-Chayalos who are the exceptions to this greatly unfortunate societal situation, we must put our combined full efforts and resources into a CCTF to educate and remind us of what the Torah expects from us, and reverse this terrible trend as was successfully done with loshan hora.
Now let’s get the ball rolling!June 23, 2011 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #825223sheinMember
One point I would be remiss to not point out is that it is the very same Chofetz Chaim who educates and admonishes us about Loshon Hora, that also in his vast writings educates and admonishes us (in strong language no less) about pritzus.June 23, 2011 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #825224apushatayidParticipant
If anyone can pull it off it is Reb Michael Rotchild, founder of the CCHF.June 23, 2011 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #825225
I hate to say it, but I think the “powers that be” would be against it for two reasons (although I personally think it is a good idea)
1: The idea of having mass Tznius rallies and the sort is inherently not Tzanuah.
2: (and more critically) The definition of Tznius is much more vague than Lashon Hara. You will have to reach to actual Halacha (knees, elbows, neck) with none of the extras (stockings, etc.). The Chasidim etc. that are more Makpid will not sign on, nor will the Bais Yaakovs that have been preaching a more stringent dress code.
But yes, the situation is not good. Perhaps it would be better for the Klal to admit the extras are just that and strengthen the actual halachos, which I have seen that observance has gone way down over the past couple of years.
Hatzlacha!June 23, 2011 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #825226ChayaSuriMember
Yes, yes!! A lot of bracha come from being tsnius. The most important thing is to be tsnius from head to toe! I have a story of hashchocha pratis about the importance of tsnius…June 23, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #825227hanabMember
Aishes Chayalos means wife of (plural, feminine) soldiers.
You probably mean Nshei Chayil.June 23, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #825228
i think what you are calling “the actual Halachah” (youre basically referring to inches, right) has actually much improved over the last few years, and needs little strengthening (among the frum). the inches are almost always adhered to.
i wish i could use speific language here but i cant. im sure you know what im referring to, see sheins quotes of me.
the Halachah is being trampled on and erased.
i dont know about the socks issue and whatever else you are referring to as extras, im kind of out of the loop on these specifics.
im referring to the manner of dress that would have our alter Bubbies running away and weeping, if not grabbing a blanket and throwing it over them. maybe screaming at them, or fainting. in spite of all the inches being covered.June 23, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #825231
Mr. 80: I agree with you 100%. But I am also seeing skirts that end on or just above the knee recently. Maybe it is a style thing (which I know nothing about).
As far as the “attracting attention” of the clothing (ends with a “y”), it is subjective, and we have had many discussions here regarding that too. The local schools discuss it as well. A standardized guideline however, will also be subjective, and those who don’t like it will not follow or denounce it. Sensitivity (which is what is being taught now) is the key in this issue IMHO.June 23, 2011 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #825232
it is subjective, it is not subject to a standardized guideline, that is not the way to proceed. but that doesnt mean nothing can be done.June 23, 2011 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #825233
it is subjective, it is not subject to a standardized guideline, that is not the way to proceed. but that doesnt mean nothing can be done.
As I said before, agreed. Shmiras Halashon though is easier because there are Halachos that can be learned.June 23, 2011 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #825234
it sure is easier
people are also much less defensive about it. it is not so much a “personal” issue
recently the Rav of my shul spoke to the men about not going into the hallway of the Shul unless absolutely necessary. its a start.June 23, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #825235me tooMember
There is an Org. Bnos Melochim.
Mail: P.O. Box 853
Monsey, NY 10952
No website Think it is geared to the younger crowd. Have seen posters for a presentation of some sort. cannot ask the women on my life (spouse, offspring) for specificsJune 23, 2011 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #825236haifagirlParticipant
There already is an organization. I think it’s called Bnos Malachim. They put out videos that are not bad, similar to the shmiras haloshon videos, only for women only.
Why start a new organization?June 23, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #825237yummy cupcakeMember
it would be a great idea. here is the one reason i don’t think it will work. this happens at tznius speeches all the time (maybe you will have noticed something different, but this is as far as my experience goes). why do we have tznius speeches? because there are so many girls and women out there dressing improperly. these women fall into two categories. 1) women who are mostly tznius and didn’t realize that something they are wearing is a breach of tznius- for this group, the speeches would work. and i am not denying, that for whoever changes, it is a big zechus and can really make a difference. the second category of women and girls are those who just dress in stylish/fashionable way because that is very important, and tznius just falls to the way side and they don’t even pay attention to it anymore. this is the bigger group, and it is obvious as soon as you step out into the street. but this group will be harder to get thru to because most of them don’t want to hear about tznius anymore and don’t wanna change because they are very happy with the way they look, the compliments they get, and the heads they turn. (again, this is not all, but most of all the women in this group. yes there are some women who would wake up and say maybe i should really try to improve…and they get major zchus too, of course!) my point is, most of the people who would benefit from this, are the ones that aren’t interested in hearing it! (and believe me, i’ve seen it happen. i know girls who have had to sit thru speeches in skool, and you see them a year or two or three later (single and married) wearing the most odd looking and definitely non tznius outfits. it is so sad 🙁June 23, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #825238
I think we need to focus first on having inner tznius. Meaning- How to be gentle, dignified, respectful, sensitive, etc. Not to be loud, brash, and arrogant. Once we can attain that, outer tznius will be automatic. I don’t think making a foundation focusing only on outer tznius will work.June 23, 2011 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #825240☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I think we need to focus first on having inner tznius. Meaning- How to be gentle, dignified, respectful, sensitive, etc. Not to be loud, brash, and arrogant. Once we can attain that, outer tznius will be automatic. I don’t think making a foundation focusing only on outer tznius will work.
I agree almost completely with your statement. The one word I would change is “first”, to “also”, because hachitzoniyus m’orer es hap’nimiyus.June 23, 2011 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #825241
“The one word I would change is “first”, to “also”, because hachitzoniyus m’orer es hap’nimiyus.”
DaasYochid, I actually specifically used the word “first”, because I think that working on inner tznius should come before working on outer tznius. Starting merely with rules of outer tznius wouldn’t solve anything. It would actually create more problems. Girls that don’t understand why outer tznius is important would not want to follow a bunch of rules that they feel are just weighing them down. And ultimately, they would get a bad feeling about tznius in general. They must first understand how outer tznius is a reflection of inner tznius, and that’s why I think we should first focus on inner tznius. Because the beauty of inner tznius, anyone can understand and appreciate.June 24, 2011 12:12 am at 12:12 am #825242a maminParticipant
I once heard Reb. Zehava Braunstin a.h. spe ak about tznius, she said a student told her she didnt need to follow strict rules of tznius because she wasnt chasidish. the Reb. a.h. answered her ” the laws of tznius were not made for only chasidish women, its for all women!”June 24, 2011 2:26 am at 2:26 am #825243apushatayidParticipant
“Chitsonis are meorrer the pnimios”. That is one school of thought, but not the only one.June 24, 2011 2:32 am at 2:32 am #825244shlishiMember
Working on ones inner tznius is wonderful, but that work doesn’t exempt compliance from outer tznius at the same time. If one pushes off one for the other, they risk never getting to the latter.June 24, 2011 3:52 am at 3:52 am #825245
“Working on ones inner tznius is wonderful, but that work doesn’t exempt compliance from outer tznius at the same time. If one pushes off one for the other, they risk never getting to the latter.”
While this is true for some things, I don’t think it will work for this particular issue. I think in order for people to accept the rules and requirements of outer tznius wholeheartedly, they must realize its essence and accept it with love, not confusion or contept, and the best way to do that is by first becoming a person with inner tznius. A person that has attained true inner tznius will realize the holiness and beauty of dressing outwardly as a servant of G-d, and will do so by their own will. Not by being FORCED to.
Also, I think tackling one issue at a time is better than two at once. We don’t want anyone to just give up the whole thing. And if there should be an order, it should be inner tznius first.November 10, 2011 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #825246Anonym613Participant
I think that a Tznius foundation would IY”H work very well if it had the name of the Choftez Chaim ZT”L associated with it.
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