Cholov Akum

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  • #772640

    Joseph
    Participant

    No one provided a good response to The Big One. If the basis of the heter is purportedly Reb Moshe, and the Igros Moshe makes clear it applies only Bshas Hadchak (plus even then a Baal Nefesh will not utilize the heter)…

    Jothar, 1) Its more likely (to say the least) you misinterpreted Reb Dovid, then that Reb Dovid misinterpreted Reb Moshe. [BTW did you learn in MTJ? The last time I spoke to Reb Dovid — which was a number of years ago — the best way to reach him was on the Yeshiva payphone. Is this still the case?] and 2) you completely misconstrued what The Big One said; your paraphrasing him was punkt farkert from his point that there is no such halachic status as Posek Hador, (i.e. there would be no reason, let’s say, to follow Rav Moshe’s shiurim for the Pesach seder than those of the Chazon Ish) and that at least in America, the only other two personalities who were considered Gedolei Hador of that caliber of Reb Moshe were Rav Aharon Kotler and the Satmar Rebbe. NOT that Reb Moshe psak is always universally accepted. (i.e. do you enjoy a refreshing air conditioner on Shabbos that was turned on by a Shabbos clock – keneged the psak of Reb Moshe?) The problem The Big One pointed out, is that many of these people will accept Reb Moshe’s psak ONLY for his kulos (i.e. Mechitzas and Cholov Akum) while rejecting Reb Moshe’s psak when he is stringent.

    Rob, I believe Reb Moshe’s psak vis-a-vis Cholov Stam (even with the fact Reb Moshe said it only applies Bshas Hadchak) is much more expansive than either the Pri Chodosh or the Chazon Ish.

    #772641

    Joseph
    Participant

    Jothar, who says Reb Dovid a) holds like Reb Moshe (sometimes he argues on his father) b) holds it is muttar anytime other than bshas hadchak (for whatever reason he may have considered the times he permitted it to be bshas hadchak – unless he clearly stated otherwise you cannot assume, even if you fail to understand the possible reasoning) c) what is the mekor for Reb Dovid’s position (other than a possible misunderstanding by yourself)?

    #772642

    yossiea
    Member

    Who says R’ Moshe said it was only b’shas hadchak? IIRC, that is regarding the teshuva with milk and a yeshiva, NOT a regular question regarding the milk.

    #772643

    Joseph
    Participant

    yossiea, read The Big One. He provided the mekors. The Igros Moshe is very clear. And Reb Moshe wrote a subsequent letter (to Rabbi Weinfeld in Monsey, printed with Reb Moshe’s handwriting and signature in the back of “Hilchos Kashrus” by Rabbi Forst) saying the heter was only bshas hadchak.

    #772644

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph & The Big One:

    On a similar note, I remember hearing (Can’t remember who, though) that Rav Moshe refused to argue on Rav Bick Halacha Lemaase while Rav Bick was alive, because he held (once again, not sure of this but maybe someone could help) that America was the “assra” (place) of Rav Bick and we Paskin like the Rov of the place.

    The Big One: Agreed 100%, great post, but l’shitasi, I would rather other people keep other mitzvos and not worry as much about a Kulah.

    Mayan_Dvash: My Rav Paskens the same. In addition, Chadash is a Safek whether it applies in Chul, and the Rema (Lefe the Bach, which in this case the Olam was Noheg to follow) paskens to be Maikel.

    #772646

    Jothar
    Member

    I agree the Igros Moshe seems clear that it’s a shas hadchak. The quote of Reb Dovid’s position came from Rabbi Frankel of the Aguda of 5 towns. The wife of one of my frieds is from the Lower East Side, and personally poured chalav stam for Reb Dovid. Every so often it pays to take an F train to the first stop in Manhattan, East Broadway, and speak to him yourself. I once did that and asked him. I spoke to someone else who told me that “shas hadchak” refers to putting frum companies out of business. It could be Reb Dovid is arguing on his father, but when I asked him he said that’s what the teshuva meant or something like that. Being that it shtims with what Rabbi Frankel said, I’m willing to accept it. But there is no argument that the pashut pshat reading of Reb Moshe ZT”L is like Big One.

    As for the air conditioner timers, my rav and poseik said that we should only use timers for lights and air conditioners. I have to double check, but I believe that air conditioners are allowed because of extreme discomfort, and light are different for another reason which I forget offhand. Otherwise, we listen to Reb Moshe ZT”L. I will try to find out more exactly why these 2.

    Rav Shachter doesn’t publicize his views on this because “tov sheyihyu shogegin” and others argue on him anyway, but he says that nowadays, most dairy cows are treif, even without the “displaced abomasum” cows, and when all the milk is mixed togather, there is no biltul berov, and definitely not bitul beshishim. Rabbi Belsky argues, and on this basis I drink milk. As for why today’s cows are worse than they were historically, it’s only in the last 100 years or so that people bred specialty cows. It used to be that cows needed to be hardy or they wouldn’t survive. Today we breed cows for soft meat (Angus, Kobe, etc) or for dairy production (Holstein etc). Furthermore, today’s cows are in stressful environments to make mass production possible. The zebu cows are much hardier than our European cows. their meat is also like shoe leather, which is why chicken and geese used to rank higher than cow meat on the “chashivus” totem pole.

    #772647

    To summarize, it has been established here that:

    • Cholov Yisroel is mandated in halacha by Shulchan Aruch
    • Reb Moshe paskened there is a heter to rely on the American government to establish Cholov Yisroel
    • Reb Moshe stated this heter is only in force Bshas Hadchak
    • Reb Moshe stated, even yet, a Baal Nefesh would not rely on this heter

    Questions:

    gavra_at_work, How can one disregard a kula that specifically doesn’t exist except under specified conditions? And keeping other mitzvos does not exclude keeping this one. Should we not strongly encourage others to keep this mitzvah in Shulchan Aruch?

    Jothar, How do non-psak anecdotes of Reb Dovid negate a psak?

    Clarifications:

    gavra_at_work, Can you elucidate who Rav Bick was, his position, and how America became his “assra”?

    Anyone, What are “yad zorim” (in a Sefer perhaps)?

    #772648

    Josh31
    Participant

    We have more pressing issues than this.

    A focus on Shemiras HaLashon (prohibitions against derogatory speech), for example can yield improvements in Biblical issues and actually improve unity among us.

    I believe that the Torah leadership is aware of all the sources The Big One brings, but has decided to focus on other issues.

    #772649

    Jothar
    Member

    Hillof beans, Rav Dovid Feinstein PASKENED it’s ok to drink cholov stam, even though the teshuvos of Reb Moshe ZT”L indicate otherwise. You can call Rabbi Frankel of the Agudah of 5 towns (author of the Yad Dodi of the psakim of R Dovid Feinstein ) to confirm. I posted the relevant quotes from another website earlier. This is not negating the fact that the pashut pshat reading of Reb Moshe ZT”L indicates that one should be machmir. Bnei Torah should be machmir, but those who aren’t are not Reshoim.

    “Yad zorim” is a phrase I assume directed at the last volume of the Igros moshe, the one with the “Brain death” teshuva that Rabbi Fuerst from Chicago alleges is completely forged. You can download the shiur from Rabbi Fuerst from psak.org.

    #772651

    Will Hill
    Participant

    Jothar: Did Reb Dovid specifically pasken that the heter can be used when it is NOT bshas hadchak (appraently differing from Reb Moshe)? Or, perhaps, he held that a specific time/situation/place WAS bshas hadchak, and permitted THEN. And does Reb Dovid (like Reb Moshe) hold the heter should only be used by a non-Baal Nefesh?

    What is the mekor for this psak of Reb Dovid?

    Josh31: One mitzvah is not exclusive to another. I assume you would not advocate to stop focusing on shatnez so we can better focus on shmiras haloshon. We can do both. Same here.

    #772652

    jphone
    Member

    I would argue that “shas hadchak” would apply to a sitution where the milk from Chalav Yisroel companies simply does not measure in terms of quality to that of the Chalav Stam companies. Whether it is the packaging, the storage, the delivery to the stores, the way the milk is kept in the stores or some combination of all of the above, the fact remains that the Chalav Yisreoel milk that I purchase in my neighborhood, whether from the local “heimishe store”, the much larger “heimishe store” or the local shop rite, spoils 10x faster than Chalav Stam. It is an inferior product, plain and simple.

    #772653

    Joseph
    Participant

    jphone, I have had better experiance with Golden Flow than other brands. Maybe give it a shot. I find rarely, if ever, does it spoil. Also, your taaina seems to be more of a cost issue (you need to replace wasted product, hence additional cost.) I don’t know that is a “dire emergency”.

    #772654

    Joseph
    Participant

    Additionally, I’m sure that there are times in life when there may be a bhas hadchak situation. What I can’t digest (pardon the pun) is how Hershey Bar’s or Reese’s Pieces ever qualify as a dire emergency.

    #772655

    Jothar
    Member

    Will Hill, when I spoke to Rav Dovid Feinstein after reading the Igros Moshe inside, he implied that he IS fitting into the teshuva of his father. Other talmidim of Reb Moshe ZT”L clearly argue. Rabbi Frankel of the Agudah of 5 towns agrees with me, as posted here earlier from another website. The MTJ payphone#, for those who don’t have it, is (212) 962-9296. I don’t know Rabbi Frankel’s number, the one who wrote the Yad Dodi, but I’m sure it’s in the phone book.

    The recommendation in my yeshiva was that one should keep cholov yisroel when he got married. I tried to follow it, but my milk sensitivity meant that I just couldn’t stomach the stuff- it was almost always spoiled, or about to be spoiled, and chamira sakanta meissura. My guf precluded me from being a baal nefesh. Clearly, those who want to be machmir have a solid basis for doing so. And based on Reb Dovid’s interpretation of his father’s Teshuva (Reb Dovid being on the Moetzes and all), those who want to be meikel, yesh al mi lismoch. As always, ask your rav and poseik- I’m a balabos, and real poskim don’t hang out on the Internet anyway.

    #772656

    Will Hill
    Participant

    Jothar: If I am correctly understanding your understanding of Reb Dovid’s understanding of Reb Moshe’s psak, he still holds that its only applicable bshas hadchak.

    Also The Big One made a point about cholov stam candies/nosh not constituting a bshas hadchak. Would Reb Dovid’s psak ever consider candy a bshas hadchak? (Forget about baal nefesh on that.)

    I also requested a (written) mekor of Reb Dovid’s psak.

    #772658

    Jothar
    Member

    Will, Reb Dovid holds chalav stam is muttar meikkar hadin. It’s good to be machmir, but not “only be meikel beshas hadchak”. I posted the quote arlier. It was copied and pasted off another website. The written mekor is the kuntres yad dodi by Rabbi Frankel of the Agudah of the 5 Towns. He too is available to call. He clearly is more meikel than the teshuva of Reb Moshe ZT”L suggests. The quote of the translation I lifted off another wbsite says there’s no problem keeping cholov yisroel when convenient. furthermore, candy bars usually use powdered milk, which the minhag has been to be meikel. Other talmidim of Reb Moshe ZT”l agree with the traditional reading, the way you began this thread.

    #772659

    Will Hill
    Participant

    Jothar: Would cholov akum Ice Cream (which uses regular [non-powder]) milk ever fit into “bshas hadchak” according to that shitta?

    Does Reb Dovid hold by the traditional definition of baal nefesh as it pertains to this issue?

    #772660

    Jothar
    Member

    Don’t know about ice cream, but the Reb dovid quote lifted shamelessly off another website by me clearly says chalav stam is muttar midina. Again, other talmidim of Reb Moshe ZT”L argue. I’m not sure how Reb dovid reads the words shas hadchak. I asked him once, and he said something along the lines of “that’s what it means”. It’s been many long years, but I encourage you to call up and get clarity- I’m not the “mara deshmatza”. Based on Reb Dovid’s well-known dislike of long explanations, your best bet is to call Rabbi Frankel of the Agudah of 5 towns, not Reb Dovid- Rabbi Frankel can give you a longer explanation. His name was attached to the aformentioned halacha post I swiped from another website. I heard that shas hadchak meant that we need to keep the frum companies in business, but that’s unconfirmed. I am very interested to hear the results of your conversation.

    Of course, according to some poskim, NOBODY is really drinking cholov yisroel, as it’s not watched by a Jew the whole time. So you’re spending more money to get a more spoiled product which may not even have any maalos over a good half gallon of Skinny Cow Special Request. It’s almost the same ripoff as those ” bishul yisroel sticker slapped on a regular product” deals, where they are relying on a light bulb for bishul yisroel, which many poskim don’t hold of. So you’re spending a huge premium to get a product that may not have any maalos over the regular product!

    The OU is talking about using video monitors to monitor dairy farms. This would mean that ALL milk can be cholov yisroel at a low cost, and we can all drink fresh, long-lasting cholov yisroel milk at a good price. I am eagerly awaiting that day.

    #772661

    jphone
    Member

    Joseph,

    There is never an excuse for a Jewish company to sell inferior products to the community. I have found that all Chalav Yisroel brands spoil rather quickly. It is mostly due to the inferior packaging – you can feel the difference in the plastic containers – and the poor handling by the stores that sell it.

    I simply refuse to purchase inferior products and pay way more than I have to for it.

    It should be the worst thing I ever do.

    As has been pointed out a number of times already, I am not drinking Chalav Akum, I am driniking chalav Stam, there is a difference.

    #772662

    anon for this
    Participant

    jphone,

    When I lived in an out-of-town community, c”y milk was trucked in to the local chain supermarket every two weeks. The milk was brought it from a city several hours away in the central US. Although some people chose to freeze the milk to help it last longer, not everyone did so. During the brief time that we bought this milk, we did not freeze it, and yet it did not spoile before the next delivery. (Because c”y milk was so expensive–about double the price of cholov stam–we used powdered c”y milk for about a year before switching to cholov stam). The milk was bottled in plastic containers.

    Nevertheless, the c”y I used to buy here in my NYC area community, where milk deliveries are much more frequent, spoiled quickly, whether I bought it at a heimishe store or chain supermarket. Based on my experiences, I must conclude that the spoilage problems with c”y are not due to the containers or the handling in the store, but maybe to storage/ refrigeration problems earlier in the process.

    #772663

    Personally, I don’t experiance spoilage with cholov yisroel milk. (In NYC).

    But even that aside, I think it is an unfair stretch to say that is a bshas hadchak. Try researching what constitutes a bshas hadchak halachicly. You may be surprised.

    #772664

    The Rosh in Sukka 3:14 discusses the issue of heter b’shaas hadchak as opposed to other times very clearly. K’dai to see.

    _________________________

    If you take a look at the S”A Orach Chayim, Siman 58, Seif 4, the Mechaber paskens that if an individual who is not an “anoos” went ahead and leined krias shema after alos and before neitz, that person is yoitzeh bediavad.

    The MB in seif katan 19 states that if the person who is in a situation of “sha’as hadchak” needs to lein k”s, even on a consistent basis, then it is permitted for him to act accordingly, because what else can he (i.e. no alternative). However, a person who relies of this leniency and is not in a position of “sha’as hadchak” than he may be yoitzeh bdiavad on occasion but if he relies on it consistently, than he is no even yoitzeh bdiavad.

    #772665

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    i love reading from the sidelines what goes on in this this!!! real interesting stuff!!

    #772666

    Josh31
    Participant

    Everyone seems to have different experiences with their c”y, even in the same city in terms of spoilage. Some of us are zoche to the nes of it not spoiling, some of us not; just like some of us have their Shabbos candles stay lit 168 hours, others only for 4 hours.

    Back to reality: For those used to eating and snacking dairy products, being fully Makpid on Cholov Yisroel is a major Avodah of self improvement. And as I have heard from those with real teaching and guidance responsibility, especially close to Yom Kippur, one has to prioritize the areas he or she will work on. For most of us, me included working on what comes out of the mouth is more important.

    #772667

    aryehm
    Participant

    Forgive me, I don’t have an Ig. M. where I am at the moment and it’s been many years since I last read the Teshuvos, but I don’t remember Reb Moshe saying that it was only bshas hadchak. I further remember seeing cholov stam in Reb Moshe’s fridge. I also remember that the second Teshuvah was basically, “Yes, I did say it and I meant it.” So, if it were an issue why did R’ Moshe permit the Rebbitzen to drink stam and why did he bother to include a Teshuvah the emphasise his heter?

    While I don’t understand how anyone would buy cholov stam in Brooklyn (or Monsey, Lakewood, or any Yiddishe Stadt), I certainly understand that many in out-of-town locations people are hard-pressed to find milk and dairy products that are chalav Yisrael and not spoiled. Let them know that there is nothing wrong with drinking “company milk” as per Reb Moshe’s Heter.

    #772668

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Hill of Beans:

    2 points:

    1: CV I would disregard a psak from Rov gedolim! I would rather people throw out their TVs and drink Chalov Stam then Vice versa. The question is what to work on, and this is lower down than stuff like Lashon Hara and saying Kriyas Shema Bezmano.

    2: Rav Bick, the Mezebusher Rav, (grandfather of the current rav?) moved from Mezebush to NY in 1925 (I think).

    #772669

    Jothar
    Member
    #772670

    aryehm: It says in the Igros Moshe, as well as a letter Reb Moshe signed that is published elsewhere, that the heter for cholov stam is only bshas hadchak. (For a non-baal nefesh; Reb Moshe wrote that a baal nefesh doesn’t use the heter even bshas hadchak.) “The Big One” posted the mekoros in the IM as well as the other letter, earlier in this thread. One talmid muvhak said Reb Moshe threw up when he was told what he ate was cholov stam; another claims he witnessed cholov stam in the fridge/fed to family members. Anecdotes of Reb Moshe (or anyone for that matter), however reliable or otherwise, don’t negate a psak din. You need a mekor.

    gavra_at_work: I understand you are referring to people who are not yet on the observance level, that they need to work on other areas first e.g. getting rid of the shmutz tube, before working on other areas. I hear you. I don’t think anyone on the thread disagrees with that. We’re talking about people who mistakenly think that cholov stam is 100% okay anytime, including non-bshas hadchak, and are able to do the right thing.

    #772671

    Josh31
    Participant

    “and are able to do the right thing.” And are not mevatel zman (wasting time) on this blog!!!

    #772672

    PM
    Member

    There are two teshuvos from Reb Moshe where he writes that it is only allowed “bsha’as hadchak”. One was written to a Yeshiva where he clearly explains that he is being machmir because it is the responsibility of a Yeshiva to teach self-sacrifice for chumros. The other was written to a city where the minhag for many years had been to be machmir, and because many people dropped the minhag the local Cholov Yisroel dairy was in danger of closing. In the teshuvos where he addresses the general concept he only writes that a “ba’al nefesh” should be machmir, which anyone knowledgeable Halacha knows means something totally different than mutar only “bsha’as hadchak”.

    #772673

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Hill of Beans:

    Unless you are a real Tzadik and keep Taryag+7 (including bein adam lachavaro and financial daelings) 100% all the time, any one of those goes before this.

    In that case, you are way ahead of me anyway.

    #772674

    Josh31
    Participant

    I think we have milked the cow dry.

    #772675

    ujm
    Participant

    gaw, confused. You are patur until you are a tzadik gamur? Sounds like a cop-out. No one is perfect. If you push off observance of something until you reach perfection on everything else, you are essentially saying you don’t wish to observe it – as you’ll never be perfect in everything else.

    PM, did you read Reb Moshe’s letter clarifying b’shaas hadchak, copied in Hilchos Kashrus?

    #772676

    David S.
    Member

    I dont have alot of input on this. I’m lactose intolerant. 😀

    #772677

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’m lactose intolerant.

    You must be Ashkenazi. 😛

    #772678

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    David S.: you poor thing!!!! on behalf of the CR Board & the CR Gang, i welcome ya to the CR!!! join the fun!!!!

    #772679

    qwertyuiop
    Member

    i’m lactose intolerant too, but not alot so i still eat cheese, milk, etc., i love cheese!!$

    #772680

    Josh31
    Participant

    The cow is now a goses (moribund).

    #772681

    David S.
    Member

    thanks everyone for the greetings, and, Joseph, yes, I am Ashkenazi, how did you know? 😀

    #772682

    Jothar
    Member

    Most people in the world are lactose intolerant. Lactose tolerance is a rarity. In the 70’s, the US sent cans of powdered milk to Africa. the Africans who drank it got terrible diarrhea, and many died.

    #772683

    anon for this
    Participant

    Jothar, was that from the milk itself or from the water they mixed it with? Because many babies in third world countries die from contaminated water mixed with baby formula. (and babies are almost never lactose intolerant, so it’s not from the formula itself).

    #772684

    anon for this
    Participant

    I wanted to add to my previous post that people don’t die from lactose intolerance, because it isn’t an allergy. While nearly all babies are lactose tolerant, most adults are not (although lactose tolerance in adults is more common in cultures where there is milk available for adults to drink); if lactose intolerance were fatal, that likely wouldn’t be the case.

    #772685

    Jothar
    Member

    I thpought I read ina book about food science that people died, but I can’t be positive. A quick google search for “Holzel lactose intolerance ” does reveal that it caused severe diarrhea and vomiting in infants, and some articles do imply that it can have fatal consequences.

    Here’s a clip from wikipedia about it:

    The condition was first recognized in the 1950s and 1960s when various organizations like the United Nations began to engage in systematic famine-relief efforts in countries outside Europe for the first time. Holzel et al (1959) and Durand (1959) produced two of the earliest studies of lactose intolerance. As anecdotes of embarrassing dairy-induced discomfort increased, the First World donor countries could no longer ascribe the reports to spoilage in transit or inappropriate food preparation by the Third World recipients.

    Some stats:

    Between 30 and 50 million Americans are lactose intolerant and certain ethnic and racial populations are more affected than others. Up to 80 percent of African Americans, 80 to 100 percent of American Indians, and 90 to 100 percent of Asian Americans are lactose intolerant. The condition is least common among people of northern European descent.

    #772686

    anon for this
    Participant

    Jothar,

    Thanks for that source. It’s possible that some people died after drinking milk, but it’s very unlikely that “many” people died due to lactose intolerance, unless they were already near death due to famine. It’s also possible that some succumbed to the germs in the water used to reconstitute the milk from powder form. The wikipedia article you quoted did not mention any deaths attributable to lactose intolerance, and indeed the scientific consensus is that lactose intolerance can cause great discomfort but not death.

    #772687

    Two possible suggestions look for a CY bottle that is either Lactose Free or contains Acidopholus (sp?), or eat Yogurt which also has acidopholous Culture which helps aid digestion.

    #772688

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    qwertyuiop: you poor thing too!!!! my condolences!!!!!!!!!

    #772689

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    David S.: Did you try Lactate pills?

    UJM: who are you talking to? I keep CY.

    #772690

    David S.
    Member

    gavra_at_work, thanks for telling me, but I already heard about them, but I decided not to use them. Hashem gave me lactose intolerance because I was over eating milk and dairy products, and I decided to live with what Hashem gave me and not try to be able to indulge again through Lactaid pills. Thanks though.

    Thanks, David

    #772691

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Just to note, R’ Moshe’s letter where he said cholov stam is only b’shas hadchak was written to a yeshiva which always used cholov yisrael, and was thinking of switching. It doesn’t apply to the general public, as it was a specific case. In R’ Moshe’s teshuva to the general question of cholov stam, he made no mention of shas hadchak.

    Additionally, most kashrus organizations have no problem giving a hechsher to dairy which isn’t cholov yisrael. R’ Belsky is a posek for the kashrus division of the OU. Do you think for one second that if he held it was a problem he’d allow a hechsher to be put on cholov stam items? Obviously, it’s not an issue, and believe me, R’ Belsky knows way more about this than you do.

    #772692

    yossiea
    Member

    Feif Un,

    Good luck trying to get that through.

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