Cholov Akum

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  • #772745

    Jothar
    Member

    SJS, thanks for the kind words.

    Zalman, When I spoke to Reb Dovid Feinstein Shlit”a , he said it was his father’s pshat. He says he’s not arguing on his father. It’s bavust among the Lower East Siders that Reb Dovid Feinstein ate chalav stam. This wrinkle that the rebbetzin did was new to me, but I heard this story from the source’s husband. IE, it’s not a rumor in the velt, but an accurately traced source. For you it’s hearsay because you have no clue who I am. But I know the source, and for me it’s reliable. This was a person who wanted to keep cholov yisroel when he got married but he couldn’t because his wife kept mentioning this fact, and are they going to be frummer than Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L? As always, ask your local rav- I’m certainly not a rav. But those interested in being mevakesh the emes can find out the truth for themselves.

    #772746

    Zalman
    Participant

    Should say: “Whilst I agree with you” (not your).

    I should add even you changed your story vis-a-vis Reb Dovid/Rebt. Feinstein, demonstrating the unreliability of these stories.

    #772747

    PM
    Member

    While one can not prove Halacha from a story, there is no contradiction between these stories. While Reb Moshe was very machmir for himself, he personally fed Cholov Stam to the rest of his family.

    #772749

    Will Hill
    Participant

    To believe the story is to believe that the family weren’t balei nefesh, and this is inconceivable.

    #772750

    Jothar
    Member

    Will Hill, we’re not arguing. You’re asking lomdus, and I’m telling you metzius. I remember Reb Dovid Shlit”a asking me if I was a baal nefesh in a rhetorical tone, and this matches that. Perhaps you are a bigger baal nefesh than his family. I don’t know. I just know the metzius, and the metzius is that his family ate chalav stam. If you want me to speak to the woman who poured the chalav stam for Rebbetzin Feinstein, I’ll try to do so. I’ll also try to find you other witnesses from the Lower East Side. But you don’t die from a kashye, especially when you know the metzius.

    #772751

    PM
    Member

    Will: I hear your taina, but I heard it first hand. In any event, the halacha comes from the teshuvos, not the story.

    #772752

    Will Hill
    Participant

    That’s exactly my point. These stories, aside from their unreliability, are worthless. We go by the written word. Jothar alone already changed the main character in his story right on this thread alone. I’ve heard countless versions of these stories.

    #772753

    Will Hill
    Participant

    And as you see here (and Jothar pointed out many of Reb Moshe’s talmidim have differing opinions on Reb Moshe’s basic psak) there is disagreement on when the psak is applicable.

    #772754

    Jothar
    Member

    Will Hill, my change came from speaking to the husband of the person in question. this isn’t a “friend of a friend” “mipi hashmua” story.

    #772755

    PM
    Member

    Will: I posted the text of the only teshuva where Reb Moshe uses the term “bshaas hadchak” and it is clearly in a specific context. There is no need for second hand stories, read it yourself along with the teshuvos where he explicitly writes that it is mutar and only one who is a “baal nefesh” need be machmir.

    You write “We go by the written word”, read the written word and you will see that Reb Moshe was matir.

    If you consider yourself a baal nefesh and want to be machmir (as I do) or if you follow the poskim who disagree with Reb Moshe, kol hakavod. But don’t claim that Reb Moshe said it is assur even l’chatchila.

    #772756

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “A picture is worth a thousand words”, or in this case, actually observing, l’maise, the actions of Rav Moshe’s family, clearly indicates what his shitos were and answers any questions one may have in terms of how to interpret Rav Moshe’s written psak.

    #772757

    Will Hill
    Participant

    I guess picturing Reb Moshe throwing up upon hearing he may have eaten cholov stam is worth 1,000 words, nevertheless altz Yidden we do go by the written word.

    That being said, I still think Jothar is correct in stating that a poshut reading of the Igros Moshe’s teshuva indicates Reb Moshe held it applicable only bshas hadchak – as many of Reb Moshe’s talmidim maintain Reb Moshe’s shitta.

    #772760

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This appears in the back of Rav Binyomin Forst’s sefer,
    פתחי הלכה, קיצור הלכות כשרות

    תשובה מהגאון הגדול, פאר הדור
    מרן מוהר”ר משה פיינשטיין זצ”ל

    בענין חלב שבמדינותנו

    (כפי אשר נדפס צילומו במדריך לכשרות נוא יארק אדר-ניסן תשל”ז).

    בע”ה
    ב’ דר”ח תמוז תשט”ז,

    מע”כ ידידי המאו”ג מהר”ר אברהם וויינפעלד שליט”א
    שלום וברכה כל הימים

    הנה בדבר חלב הקאמפאניעס שבמדינותנו ודאי יש טעמים להתיר לומר שאינם בכלל האיסור שאמרו חז”ל וכדחזינן שהרבה מקילין בזה מפני הדוחק, בהרבה מקומות. אבל במקום שאפשר להשיג אף שעולה בקצת טרחה יותר ואף ביוקר מעט, חלב של ישראל, אין מן הראוי להקל בזה וצריכים להשיג חלב של ישראל

    והנני ידידו
    משה פיינשטיין

    #772761

    MDG
    Participant

    According to the above letter quoted from Rav Moshe, it is not proper to rely on the leniency of chalav stam if one can get Ch”Y milk with a little more effort and price.

    So then, how do you define effort (Tircha) and price. Usually 1/6 is the amount for overcharge. In this case, the difference is usually more than 1/6. More like %50 to %100 (or more if OOT).

    #772762

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    According to the above letter quoted from Rav Moshe, it is not proper to rely on the leniency of chalav stam if one can get Ch”Y milk with a little more effort and price.

    So then, how do you define effort (Tircha) and price. Usually 1/6 is the amount for overcharge. In this case, the difference is usually more than 1/6. More like %50 to %100 (or more if OOT).

    I don’t know, I guess it depends on the individual, but I doubt the difference is bigger now than when R’ Moshe Zt”l wrote this (late 70’s).

    #772763

    Feif Un
    Participant

    That letter was written for a specific case. A yeshiva, which had only bought C”Y milk for years, was thinking of switching. R’ Moshe urged them not to. This psak was meant ONLY for the yeshiva, not for the general public.

    #772764

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That letter was written for a specific case. A yeshiva, which had only bought C”Y milk for years, was thinking of switching. R’ Moshe urged them not to. This psak was meant ONLY for the yeshiva, not for the general public.

    You’re mistaking it with the one printed in ????? ???.

    That one is in ??”? ?’ ???? ?”?. In that ?????, written about yeshivas, he specifically mentions that for reasons of chinuch, they should be ????? despite the fact that over the course of the year it’s a large expense, and the financial situation in the yeshivas is tight.

    This one was written to ?’ ????? ?????????; that one to ?’ ???? ??? ??????.

    #772765

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Daas Yochid: In any case, it was a letter that R’ Moshe chose not to print in the Igros Moshe. Therefore, it is not meant for the general public, but only for the person it was written to.

    #772766

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Feif Un,

    It was originally printed publicly, in the (????? ?????? (??? ???? ???-???? ???”?. Rav Forst obviously feels that it is for the general public. And his reason (in the situation it refers to) applies universally. I’m not defining any individual’s ????, but he clearly is saying that for the most part, people should not be lenient.

    #772767

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Daas Yochid: that may be Rabbi Forst’s opinion, but it wasn’t R’ Moshe’s. R’ Dovid Feinstein eats and drinks cholov hacompanies.

    Also, R’ Belsky now gives another heter which is different from the heter of R’ Moshe. He does not differentiate between shas hadchak or not.

    #772768

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Feif Un,

    It certainly was R’ Moshe’s opinion; this was, as I mentioned, publicized years ago and R’ Forst merely reprinted it.

    In all of the teshuvos in Igros, reference was made to the preference to be machmir, but this one is even clearer. The one in the (controversial) eighth chelek is also quite clear. I’ll copy the relevant passage from earlier in the thread (emphasis mine, parenthetical notes removed):

    ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????, ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????

    #772769

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Daas Yochid: Was it publicized earlier at the request of R’ Moshe, or by someone else? I didn’t mean that R’ Moshe didn’t write the letter, I meant it wasn’t his opinion to publicize it. That was R’ Forst’s decision. Just to note, R’ Forst is generally machmir on many things that other big Rabbonim are meikel on. Just because he felt it was ok to publicize it didn’t mean that R’ Moshe intended for it. If R’ Moshe had intended it, it would have been in the Igros.

    #772770

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Daas Yochid: Was it publicized earlier at the request of R’ Moshe, or by someone else? I didn’t mean that R’ Moshe didn’t write the letter, I meant it wasn’t his opinion to publicize it.

    It was printed in a kashrus guide of some sort, I doubt against his will. It is also wholly consistent with the teshuva in chelek ches, and the other teshuvos in Igros also imply as much. For example, the one we referred to earlier, ??”? ?’ ???? ?”? ,says at the end (of the cholov part) that people who live far away (he likely means from the NY area) need not be machmir because of the expense and tircha, clearly implying that without the expense and tircha, one should be machmir.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14676&st=&pgnum=44

    BTW, I don’t agree with you assessment of R’ Forst; I think he’s in the middle, but that’s all subjective.

    #772771

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I don’t know when the kashrus guide was printed, so I don’t know what R’ Moshe’s opinion of it was. I know the letter wasn’t printed in the Igros, and the teshuvos that were printed (except the one in chelek ches) say “baal nefesh yachmir”, not bshas hadchak.

    #772772

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Apparently, it was printed in or slightly before ??? ???”?, plus I gave you a link to a teshuva from an earlier chelek. Here are the key words:

    ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ????????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??????

    Loose translation with my emphasis:

    If it’s very difficult to obtain CY, even individuals need not be stringent.

    You can quibble with translating the words ??? ??? ?????? as “need not be stringent”, but it makes no sense to say that he meant it is assur to be machmir.

    The evidence that his heter was for a “shaas had’chak” is overwhelming. In order to dispute it, you have to assert that the teshuva in ches is fraudulent, ignore the clear implications of the other teshuvos (especially the one I just translated), and somehow assume that R’ Moshe did not mean for the one which I originally posted to get out (which obviously R’ Forst disagrees with and you haven’t demonstrated any rov who holds otherwise). If that’s somehow the case, you have to assume that R’ Moshe’s reason for not wanting it to be publicized is that he didn’t really believe what he wrote!

    #772773

    Feif Un
    Participant

    The letter in chelek ches was written to a yeshiva, not for the general public. As for a Rav who disagrees with R’ Forst, I already named one – R’ Dovid Feinstein.

    #772774

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The letter in chelek ches was written to a yeshiva, not for the general public.

    It’s not written for a yeshiva, it’s written for a community.

    As for a Rav who disagrees with R’ Forst, I already named one – R’ Dovid Feinstein.

    You’re switching arguments here. You asserted that R’ Moshe did not intend for that teshuva to be printed, and your proof was that it was not in Igros. I asserted that the essential point was made in Igros as well, and that it is illogical to assume that R’ Moshe wished to “hide” his opinion that one should only rely on his heter b’shaas had’chak. I proved my view by pointing out that R’ Forst, who printed that teshuva, feels that R’ Moshe had no problem with it being publicized. Now you say that R’ Dovid disagrees with R’ Forst. Where is there any sort of evidence that R’ Dovid thinks that this particular teshuva is supposed to be a secret?

    #772775

    MDG
    Participant

    Daas Yachid,

    Although I am not so familiar with R’ Forst, it seems to me that R’ Dovid’s opinion and the fact that R’ Moshe did not publish the teshuva that you quoted is evidence enough of R’ Moshe’s true intention for a public psak. R’ Moshe might have been more machmir in different situations, depending on the circumstances, but that is clearly not what his published (by him) teshuvot imply, where he says that a baal nefesh should be machmir.

    #772776

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Daas Yochid: you misunderstood what I meant about R’ Dovid. R’ Forst feels that R’ Moshe’s opinion was that you should not drink cholov hacompanies unless it was the only thing available. R’ Dovid disagrees, as he eats and drinks it on a regular basis, based on his father’s opinion.

    #772777

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As I’ve demonstrated and pointed out, if R’ Dovid holds it’s l’chatchila, he’s not disagreeing with R’ Forst, he’s disagreeing with his father. His father clearly held that it’s not. (I use the term “l’chatchila” to mean when there is no “shaas had’chak”.)

    BTW, I did hear from someone I know who was in R’ Dovid’s house and he was served only cholov yisroel. He didn’t know if there was also cholov stam in the house.

    #772778

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    MDG,

    If you read through my posts, you’ll find that I demonstrated that it’s obvious even in the teshuvos in Igros that R’ Moshe meant for the p’sak to be applied b’shaas had’chak.

    I am familiar with R’ Forst, and I highly value his opinion (which might be a chutzpah for me to say, but in context of people who don’t know him, I hope it’s ok).

    #772779

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I know many people who are close to R’ Dovid, and they all say that he eats cholov hacompanies, and bases it on his father’s psak. Again, in the Igros Moshe that R’ Moshe himself put together, it doesn’t say anywhere that it’s only shas hadchak. It only says baal nefesh yachmir. It’s not clear that R’ Moshe said only bshas hadchak was meant for everyone.

    #772780

    MDG
    Participant

    Daas Yochid,

    Can you find me in the Igros Moshe (the teshuvot that he approved and published during his life) where R’ Moshe says that the p’sak is to be applied b’shaas had’chak ?

    #772781

    shlishi
    Member

    my brother in mtj says rav dovid does not eat cholov stam at all, and nor does his adult family. (he isnt sure about when they were young children.)

    he isnt sure if rav dovid has his own opinion and disagrees with his father rav moshe, or if rav dovid holds like his father.

    #772782

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    MDG,

    I assume you mean ?????? from ??? ? and I understand why, but I don’t think anyone had an agenda on this.

    There is also a clear ???? in ??”? ?’ ???? ?”?. The key words are:

    ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ????????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??????

    This clearly implies that if it is not ??? ??? ????? one should be ?????.

    #772783

    MDG
    Participant

    Daas Yochid,

    Thank you for the source. B”N I will look it up on Shabbat.

    Shabbat Shalom to you all.

    #772784

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Chalav Akum.

    Akum? You racists. You think all goyim worship stars?

    #772785

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You think all goyim worship stars?

    You forgot constellations.

    #772786

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    LOL

    #772787

    MDG
    Participant

    Daas Yochid,

    I looked up the source that you listed above, but I do not find what you are quoting. It seems to me that R’ Moshe is saying that is the case of a yeshiva (not the average person), they should spend more because they are teaching how to stay away from prohibitions.

    Here’s a link to the page:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=919&st=&pgnum=44&hilite=

    I cut and pasted from that link, but it did not come out perfectly. But anyway see the link.

    ???? ??? ?????????? ????????? ?????? ????

    ????? ??? ???? ?”? ????”? ????? ?????

    ??? ???????.”????? ????? ?????, ??? ?”? ??

    ????? ????? ??? ??????, ????? ?? ???? ????

    ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ????????? ??? ??

    ??? ?????????? ???????? ????? ????? ??????,

    ??? ???? ????? ??? ????????? 9??? ?? ??

    ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ?????

    ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????, ?”? ????

    ???????? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????

    ??????.??,?????????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ‘?????? ????? ??? ???? ????????,

    ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????

    ????’?.??????????, ??????? ????? ??? ?????. ??? ??????? ???? ?? ????????? ????

    ?????? ?????, ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???

    ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???????????? ???

    ??????.

    ????? ?? ????

    #772788

    MDG
    Participant

    Daas Yochid,

    After re-reading that teshuva, I see what you quoted above, but it seems to me that the context is concerning a Yeshiva and not the average person. When R’ Moshe says “??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??????” which Yechidim is he talking about?

    It seems to me that he is talking about people that want to be machmir on themselves. He is saying that even then they have don’t have to be strict with themselves.

    I don’t see anywhere in this teshuva that R’ Moshe reconsiders or contradicts what he says in his earlier teshuvot, where he says that a ba’al nefesh should be machmir. In fact, one could say that the Yechidim in the Y”D Chalek 5 are the baalei nefesh in Y”D Chalek 2. So that it comes out (according to this understanding) that R’ Moshe is saying that even a baal nefesh, who lives way out of town, may rely on the chalav companies.

    #772789

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    MDG,

    I never meant to say that R’ Moshe reconsidered or contradicted himself in any way. Only that the practical application of the heter changes based on the circumstances.

    I think that “ba’al nefesh yachmir” meant even if difficult.

    You ask which yechidim he refers to, and I think he means the general population, as opposed to yeshivos.

    I agree that it’s possible to understand it the way you did, but besides the fact that I think my way is the simpler way, it also conforms with the other two teshuvos.

    I still see no reason not to accept the other two teshuvos, especially the one from the ????? ??????. The fact that it was not printed in Igros Moshe is immaterial; many of his teshuvos were not.

    #772790

    MDG
    Participant

    Daas Yochid,

    I also don’t see the teshuva from the ????? ?????? to be immaterial, but I can’t say that it was R’ Moshe’s intended public psak.

    I see how you are leaning pshat in the teshuva in the Igrod Y”D 5. I think that it would take a real buki to determine who those “Yechidim” are. Until then, Teiku.

    And until the next shipment of C”Y comes to my far OOT community, I’m drinking soy milk.

    #772791

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And until the next shipment of C”Y comes to my far OOT community, I’m drinking soy milk.

    Then I guess you are a ??? ???!

    #772792

    MDG
    Participant

    I don’t think I would call me that.

    BUT, I am concerned about people violating their nedarim. From what I understand, a broken vow carries with it a strict punishment from above. Rav Moshe said that if one specifically chooses Chalav Yisrael over Chalav companies three times, then that creates a Neder, vow, through their actions.

    I’d rather have people drink Chalav Companies w/o breaking vows, than try Chalav Yisrael for a short while and violate a neder many times.

    I guess my point is this: If you want to try C”Y then start by saying Bli Neder. Otherwise don’t start, or know what you are committing to and stick to it (or be matir neder).

    #772793

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t think I would call me that.

    That’s good, because if you did, you wouldn’t be one 🙂

    As far as nedarim, IIRC, R’ Moshe says it depends on whether you keep C”Y because you think C”S is assur or as a chumra.

    I personally accepted it as bli neder and occasionally on erev R”H specify it during hatoras nedarim.

    Otherwise don’t start

    If the reason one is not starting is because of nedarim, it’s easy enough to say “bli neder”.

    #772794

    s2021
    Member

    mdg, dy- tell me what u think. i decided to eat CY when i was younger even though my family doesnt. anyways, recently, i had just gotten separated from my husband,i was in a very sad place and i had barely eaten. One morning, before i left to work my father quickly cooked me some eggs and gave it to me in an ouD english muffin. i thought it was so adorable and sweet i almost started crying (that was the state i was in) but i realized it was ouD n i couldnt eat it. aaanywaz later in the day i was hungry , i had no other food, and i said- it was made with so much love! im eating it! i usually never “justify” things but at that point i just needed to be gentle with myself. reading your posts, i realize nedarim arent simple.. So my question is- was that completely wrong? what should i do about it?

    #772795

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    s2021,

    I don’t know if you were in the situation of a neder (you would have to ask a posek), but even if so, being matir neder works retroactively, so you should do that.

    May Hashem bentch you with simcha!

    #772796

    s2021
    Member

    thanx. 🙂 (hey- its working!)

    #772798

    hello99
    Member

    Thomas English Muffins have less than 1/60 milk, despite the OU-D. They are not a cholov stam issue.

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