Cholov Stam

Rabbi Gronesh (sp) is a very well respected Rav in the New York Flatbush area.

Last week he told me very clearly in no uncertain terms that the requirement for Cholov Yisroael was L’chatchila.

And he said it more then once making sure I heard it clearly with no uncertainties whatsoever.

When I asked him about those who eat Cholov Stam who quote Rav Feinstien and the idea that in America Cholov Stam was relied on in that the laws requred it to not have anything in it that would make it trief (not that American law was made for Kashrus’ sake but in this case, it works out that way) Rav Gronesh told me that

there are those Rabbonim who rely on the idea that C’S’ according to them fulfills the requirement for C’Y’, and some people follow that.

But he made it clear that there is no question whatsoever that

C’Y’ is L’chatchila and that C’S’ is not “the same” as C’Y’.

As I have said before I personally am no scholar and do not know these things.

This is what a very well respected Rav, who gives Heschers all over the world (from what others, not the Rav himself has said in response to my questions about why he sometimes did not join the minyan in his shule, for a few days at time), has told me.

Those who argue with my repetition and understanding of what the Rav said, can ask him themselves.

Those who argue with the ideas themselves, are not arguing with me, they are arguing with the Rav.

Reb Moshe doesn’t hold they are equivalent, otherwise Reb Moshe wouldn’t have told people who are baalei nefesh to not eat CS.

Ich Vais Shoin Alles when I asked the Rav that question, he specifially said they are ‘not’ the same.

So as I said, if you think differently, then you are arguing with the Rav, not with me.

For anyone to say or suggest, that Rav Gronish ‘changed’ his halachic views, because of who he married is to call into question his integrity because of politics.

I think one ‘may’ (I’m not sure, but I would not want to be the one to do it, and then find out, the hard way) have a lot to answer for, in The beis Din Shel Meila, to talk that way about any Gadol Hatorah.

Reb Moshe did hold that CY is better. Reb Moshe said anyone who is a baal nefesh should only use CY.

“Are you saying that Rav Feinstein would eat from all those heschers you mentioned, that Rav Gronish would not eat from?”

There is no reason to say that Rav Moshe would not have eaten from these worthy hashgachos.

hereorthere – “Are you saying that Rav Feinstein would eat from all those heschers you mentioned, that Rav Gronish would not eat from?”

I’m using your logic, so unless you know otherwise, I’ll assume that Rav Moshe would have eaten OU Heinz ketchup and Tam Tam crackers and KAJ or Weismandl chickens, to name a few.

IVSA: Of course you’re allowed to be machmir. Especially if one is striving to be a Baalei Nefesh. Even if one is not yet a Baalei Nefesh, one can strive to be a Baalei Nefesh by acting as Reb Moshe says a Baalei Nefesh should act. Some people may not be a Baalei Nefesh yet… but they certainly can work on themselves becoming a Baalei Nefesh, and by eating Cholov Yisroel would be one step closer towards becoming a Baalei Nefesh.

It’s absolutely incorrect to say that those who only eat Cholov Yisroel are meikel in something else to compensate. In fact, Reb Moshe himself (amongst others) would only eat CY (Reb Moshe threw up once when someone told him something he just ate may have been CS) and he certainly did not become lax in another area of halacha as a result.

qa

The gemara says that someone was once being machmir for aveilus on yerushalayim on a level that he was presumed not holding at, and the (Jewish) government threw him in jail. When they found out he was greater than they had thought he was and he really was holding there, they let him out. There are plenty such examples in the gemara where it clearly teaches that one who is not holding somewhere shouldn’t act as if he is. One must be makir mekomo. Otherwise, one can do all the chumras and get carried away with himself, thinking he is perfect when he actually has loads to work on. See Alei Shur, the chapter on self-knowledge, I am only repeating what he said. So there is much basis for those who say it is assur to be machmir if you aren’t a ba’al nefesh. Furthermore, this is the psak I have been given by my rav, and so I have heard first-hand besheim both R’ Dovid and R’ Reuven, so don’t just assume so simply that R’ Moshe didn’t hold this way.

Your logic that one is a ba’al nefesh until he proves himself otherwise is faulty too, because 1) a person is not born a ba’al nefesh, and 2) most people are not ba’alei nefesh, and therefore there is both a rov and a chazaka to refute your claim. Anyone who’s learned some gemara and poskim knows these are perfectly valid means of determining the halacha.

yitayningwut, There is a difference between that (the example you cited of him going above and beyond the law) and eating Cholov Yisroel. CY is the default position and the l’chatchila. CS is a “heter”.

And anyone can work on himself becoming a Baal Nesfesh, even if he isn’t a Baal Nefesh yet. One thing towards that goal, is to only eat Cholov Yisroel.

heretofore –

I have no idea how you got that from the story. In the story they put him in jail and nobody had a problem with that, they held it was the right thing to do. It was after they tested his Torah knowledge that they saw he was an adam chashuv and worthy of being machmir that they let him free, but they never changed their principle that one who isn’t holding there should not be machmir.

What you are saying about a rav is something I reiterated over and over again in my previous posts. Of course one has the right and should follow whatever their rav says. But apparently no one on this forum seems to be mindful of that, because if they were I wouldn’t have to defend my position of c.s. being mutar gamur even not b’shas hadchak – something I also reiterated many times that I got from my rav. So obviously I’m only arguing to those people who “my rav paskened this way” isn’t enough for them, which I don’t agree with, but I’m trying to defend my position against them anyway.

And just because no kol korei came out in the yated against being machmir doesn’t mean there aren’t rabbanim who hold it isn’t proper to be machmir. Like I said, my rav holds this way, and so I heard first hand besheim R’ Dovid and R’ Reuven – the sons of R’ Moshe. And I posted this more than once on the thread, so you must not have been paying attention.

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The way to become a baal nefesh is not to keep chumras. Chumras are things a ba’al nefesh does, not what make him up. Just like keeping shabbos doesn’t make you Jewish – once your Jewish keeping shabbos means something, chumras are at best meaningless to someone who is not a ba’al nefesh and at most very damaging. I refer you to Alei Shur, I think it’s a very good sefer and this concept is something he advocates very strongly.

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You keep repeating yourself. Maybe if you elaborate on where you’re coming from with that statement, you might convince me.

There is no such thing as being mattir a davar assur. If anyone ‘finds a heter’ what they are saying is that there is a loophole in the halacha that allows this, and therefore according to the letter of the law it is fine. Sometimes there is room for a chumra, and when one uses the term ‘l’chatchila you shouldn’t eat x’ what they mean is that it is mutar but there is room for a chumra. Just because something was thought to be the halacha doesn’t make it the default position, which automatically de-legitimizes anyone who figure out that the assumption is incorrect. Someone who ‘finds a heter’ is simply demonstrating that the previous assumptions were incorrect.

I’m not sure if you are just arguing about semantics, but if you are not then in essence what you seem to be saying is simply that the gezeira d’rabbanan of chalav akum applies to chalav stam. That is something R’ Moshe, and many rabbanim disagree with, and if they didn’t they wouldn’t have ‘found a heter’.

What you wrote in parentheses is what I am trying to figure out…

hereorthere – I would love to respond to the questions but quite frankly, I don’t understand them. I don’t know if it’s just me, or others too?

hereorthere – “Rabbi Grones is a very well respected Rav in the New York Flatbush area. Last week he told me very clearly…”

You don’t have to believe me, since you are in contact with the Rav, you can ask him directly and report back.

The big 5 were already identified: OU; OK; Chaf K; CRC (Chicago); Star K

heretofore-

I’m sorry I was unclear, let me clarify: I did not hear specifically from R’ Moshe’s sons that it is assur to be machmir. What they did say was to the effect of “there is no reason for you (not me personally, you as in stam a person) to be machmir” and “don’t worry about it, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it.” And they were speaking to choshuve bnei Torah who learn full-time in yeshiva. And I know firsthand that R’ Dovid consumes chalav stam on a regular basis, and when a friend of mine asked (with a bit of chutzpah) “Isn’t the Rosh Yeshiva a ba’al nefesh his father spoke of?” He replied half seriously “It’s not your business.” From my impression of his responses it seems to me that he is against being machmir in this area, but that is only my conjecture. However my personal rav, Harav Yitzchak Abadi, does happen to hold that way.

The story in the Gemara was not about the Zohar. The person was wearing black shoes as a sign of Aveilus for Yerushalayim, something he was not halachically required to do. Yes, there are 70 faces to Torah, but that is for expounding and drush, not for pshat, and I think the pshat is clearly indicative of my point, that in matters of issur v’heter one should not do more than what the halacha requires if he is not holding there.

I am not saying that you have to accept c.s. as l’chatchila or mutar gamur etc. On the contrary, if your rav disagrees you should follow him. I am just trying to inform you that there are those who disagree, and they are great people too, so you shouldn’t be dismayed when you see people being noheig differently than you.

heretofore –

We do pasken from the gemara. When what seems to be in the gemara seems to go against a halacha in Shulchan Aruch we will normally follow the halacha in S.A. because R’ Yosef Karo probably knew the gemara better than you and me, but regarding something that isn’t written in the S.A. we definitely pasken from the gemara. Most sheilos u’tshuvos seforim do that.

R’ Moshe’s sons R’ Dovid and R’ Reuven are widely regarded as great gedolim and poskim. Someone told a relative of mine that he asked R’ Elyashiv a serious halacha sheila that had to do with someone in America, and R’ Elyashiv asked if the guy had already asked R’ Dovid Feinstein. When the guy told him no, R’ Elyashiv told him to go ask R’ Dovid. From what I know, all the major poskim nowadays hold of him very strongly.

When he told the person ‘it’s not your business’ it was because being a ba’al nefesh is a personal thing and has to come from a deep understanding of oneself. He most probably held that no benefit would come to this person from knowing this piece of personal information, though as I said, he only said that half-seriously. I don’t think he needs to be excused for not wanting to discuss his private relationship with Hashem with any random person. As for the halacha that we need to know, he is clear about his position that there is no problem whatsoever with c.s.

I understand that you are just trying to learn, and I commend your efforts, and I’m doing my best to inform you what I know.

Rav Moshe stated that any shaila to Rav Moshe that needed to be paskined could be asked of Rav Dovid, hainu hach, same thing

heretofore-

Even if the SA has what to say, if the specific case is not in the SA one can only pasken through the gemara with the help of the rishonim. R’ Moshe and any other meikil in this area are understanding that this is the halacha based on what the gemara and the SA say. But anyway, I wasn’t talking about the halachic status of c.s. regarding paskening from the gemara, I was talking about the story which talks about chumras that one isn’t holding by. You won’t find in SA that he says you should keep an added chumra that you aren’t holding by, hence, the gemara is adequate proof that this is the way to be noheig until someone proves otherwise. As to whether c.s. is a chumra or halacha, we’ve already covered that at length and I’ve shared the views of my rabbanim and have seen and respect yours.

A ba’al nefesh is a person of exceptional yiras shamayim and discipline, literally a soul-master, and such a person knows when he reaches that level.

anonymous555, there were 7 volumes of the Igros Moshe put out by R’ Moshe himself. An 8th volume was put out after he passed away that was not prepared by him. Many people hold that the teshuvos written there need to be taken with a grain of salt, as they weren’t selected by R’ Moshe himself for publication.

In the shul where my parents daven, the only Yad Moshe they have is an English version. Yes, I do know how to use it. I don’t even know if there’s a Hebrew version (I assume there is), but I did know how to use the one the shul had, which was in English.

Anonymous555 since you have said you think ‘gee a moron’ has so much common sense how about telling us the proof for his claim that being machmir in one area, automatically means being maikel, somewhere else?

Yitayningwut so are you paskening that C’Y’ is “too high” a chumra for the average person who is not a big scholar, to hold by?

What makes you think everyone can decide for themself? This is a matter one should consult with their Rov to decide.

Cholov is cholov. If it comes from a cow, it is kosher. If it comes from a goat, it is kosher. Milk that is stipulated as Grade A milk can ONLY come from a cow, by the laws in this country. It is not MORE kosher because a Jew owned the cow and watched the cow get milked, even if it IS called cholov Yisroel. If we choose to drink cholov Yisroel, kol hakavod, but don’t put down those frum Yidden who choose to spend less money for better-tasting and longer fresh-tasting milk that is NOT cholov Yisroel. As long as it is 100% kosher, it is nobody else’s business. Have you any idea how many people claim to be cholov Yisroel, but eat Entenmann’s cake?