May 18, 2010 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #685332
“What’s the difference if the OU attests that certain milk is kosher or if Chaim Yankel (who we believe to say he saw the cow milked), claims it’s kosher? Once milk has hashgacha that verifies the milk’s kosher status, in my opinion, that milk is chalav yisroel. “
From everything I heard in life and in this thread even Rav Moshe (or any other Rav from everything I have heard) never said
“they are exactly the same” .
And if anyone claims that pointing this out is “putting anyone down” they are just trying to embarrass people into not having a fully open and honest discussion.
I do not know enough to fully know what the exact difference is.
I just try to follow the Rabbonnim.
Those who want to claim the Rabbonnom are wrong, let them go argue with the Rabbonnim.May 18, 2010 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #685333
hereorthere – please don’t put words into my mouth; since there is lots of back-up that CS is ok so I, as “in my opinion”, have a s’vara whereby hashgacha on milk attests that it is kosher as does a Jew who claims that he saw all the cows being milked.
Many restaurants and most retail kosher products; the hashgacha is on a “yotze v’nichnas” basis. The mashgiach pops in unannounced from time to time. This is what Rav Gornish does as well.May 18, 2010 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #685334
Perhaps the difference is one (milk) has a gezeira from Chazal while the other (other food) doesn’t. Just saying, since you asked for the “difference”.May 18, 2010 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #685335
Trying my best – if that were the case, then CS would not be ok at all.
Also, the yotze v’nichnas mashgiach is believed to say that the milk in the restaurant is cholov yisroel, even though he’s not there all the time, did not see the CY milk when it was purchased, and the chef can substitute other milk when the mashgiach is not around.May 18, 2010 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #685336
“if that were the case, than CS would not be ok at all”
That itself is one of the reasons some are machmir, because they are choshesh that indeed that is the case.May 18, 2010 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #685337
“some are machmir” – that’s ok with me; if some consider it a chumra, the sky’s the limit.May 18, 2010 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #685338
Cherrybim I did not put words in your mouth.
I just pointed out that no Rav has ever to my knowledge said that
C’S and C’Y’ are “the same”.
When you ask ‘what is the difference’ (and I have already said I am just trying to follow the rabbionnim even if I do not know exactly what the difference is, but Rav Gronish has specifically said they are not the same and no other Rav, to my knowledge, has ever said they were) what can you possibly be trying to get people to think, ‘other then’, “they must be the same”.
You asked what is the difference, I did not “put it in your mouth”.May 18, 2010 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #685339
I’m not sure what you meant.
‘Some consider it a chumra’ is not the same as ‘some are machmir.’ Being machmir means being stringent, and the term is not just used for ‘chumras’ per se, but for keeping any stringent position in halacha as opposed to a more lenient one. That’s just the nomenclature.
Thus, when I said some are machmir because of that I meant some hold l’halacha that it’s assur for that reason, not just a chumra. I am not noheig that way, but you asked Trying my best why one would differentiate between c.s. and other areas of kashrus, and I was merely clarifying the approach he/she* brought up.
*Sorry, I really can never figure out the gender of each person here – perhaps someone should suggest to the mods that next to each user name there should be an ‘m’ or an ‘f’.May 20, 2010 4:00 am at 4:00 am #685340
re “the big 5”: Star K did NOT exist in Reb Moshe’s lifetime and CRC was purely a local hechsher in the Chicago area.May 20, 2010 4:14 am at 4:14 am #685341
Perhaps the difference is one (milk) has a gezeira from Chazal while the other (other food) doesn’t. Just saying, since you asked for the “difference”.
Trying my best – if that were the case, then CS would not be ok at all.
Actually Reb Moshe holds that CY IS a gezeira, not like the Pri Chadash. However he holds that the USDA supervision fulfils the requirements of the gezeira and is equivalent to CY, read the teshuvos in IM. Rav Gornish follows the Chassidishe Poskim who disagree with Reb Moshe, and is NO reflection on what Reb Moshe himself held.May 20, 2010 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #685342
Actually Reb Moshe holds that CY IS a gezeira, not like the Pri Chadash. However he holds that the USDA supervision fulfils the requirements of the gezeira and is equivalent to CY, read the teshuvos in IM.
No, not exactly!May 21, 2010 5:12 am at 5:12 am #685343
When you say “Reb Moshe” is that Rav Moshe Feinstein (I just want to be absolutely clear, on that)?
If so, did he say C’S’ and C’Y’ were “equivelent” in those exact words?
Did he make it clear he held that there was absolutely no difference between them?
You say “No, not exactly!”
Then what “EXACTLY”, are you saying?May 21, 2010 10:01 am at 10:01 am #685344
Reb Moshe/HaRav Moshe Feinstein does not use the words “chalav stam”, he writes that chalav HaCompanies fulfils the
Halachic requirement of CY. Look up the teshuva yourself in IM YD 1.
BTW I think you are confused about who wrote what in the previous post.May 21, 2010 11:27 am at 11:27 am #685345
OK as long as we are clear that saying “fulfills the requirement” is not saying “they are exactly the same”.
A Yugo will get you to work, so will a Ferrari, they both fulfill the requriment of getting you to work, but no one would say they were “the same”.May 21, 2010 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #685346
Are Golden Flow milk; Mehadrin milk; Shop Rite milk EXACTLY the same? NO.
Are they all considered Cholav Yisroel milk by Rav Moshe? YES.
Rav Dovid and Rav Reuven Feinstein, Rav Moshe’s two sons, paskin that one may purchase Chalav Stamm milk L’chatchila; so who’s got bigger shoulders?May 21, 2010 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #685347
“Rav Dovid and Rav Reuven Feinstein, Rav Moshe’s two sons, paskin that one may purchase Chalav Stamm milk L’chatchila; so who’s got bigger shoulders? “
Did they use those exact words?
What would they say if someone said “so, they are the same, then.”?May 21, 2010 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #685348
hereorthere – “Did they use those exact words?”
In answer to a shaila about buying chalav stam, they said it could be purchased L’chatchila. I would assume that if someone asked them if they could drink chalav yisroel milk, Rav Dovid or Rav Reuven Feinstein would paskin that CY could be drunk L’chatchila; but I don’t know the exact words they would use.May 22, 2010 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #685349
The words of Reb Moishe are, “I personally am Machmir, and a Ba’al Nefesh should be Machmir.” No, they are not excatly the same.May 22, 2010 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #685350
This Shabbos I reviewed the three tshuvas. If I have some more time I will add some more info.May 22, 2010 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #685351
Semantics, semantics. The bottom line is that the Rabannan forbade milk that was milked by a non-Jew without supervision, and Reb Moshe paskened that this does not apply to commercial milk in the US. Many Poskim disagree, but this was clearly Reb Moshe’s position.May 23, 2010 1:29 am at 1:29 am #685352oomisParticipant
I have been told that both Miller and Migdal are owned by the same company. Miller is NOT C”Y. How can that be, if they are both Jewish-owned by the same Jews?May 23, 2010 3:02 am at 3:02 am #685353
If it was ‘just semantics’ then anyone could go rav shopping and hold only by the most makeil opinions in each catagory.May 23, 2010 3:03 am at 3:03 am #685354Yanky55Participant
I know for a fact that R’ Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik drank the Dellwood brand of milk when he stayed at his apartment at YU.
That was his shittah and it’s good enough for me.May 23, 2010 3:04 am at 3:04 am #685355
If indeed Miller and Migdal are both owned by the same Jew, that still does not mean they are both watched by a Jew during wahtever (or all of) the processes for which it must be watched to be catagorized as C’Y’ as opposed to C’S’.May 23, 2010 3:31 am at 3:31 am #685356
hereorthere: If it was ‘just semantics’ then anyone could go rav shopping and hold only by the most makeil opinions in each catagory.
Huh? I meant your harping on whether Reb Moshe called CY and CS “the same” or “equivalent” or “fulfilling the same halachic obligation” are irrelevant. The bottom line is we considered chalav ha Companies to be CY.May 23, 2010 4:25 am at 4:25 am #685357
hello99 those like you are the ones doing the harping, and saying the difference is irrelevent is just like saying the two things are the same and that is false.May 23, 2010 4:46 am at 4:46 am #685358
hereorthere, your mashal of the Yugo and Ferrari is very appropriate. You are just the same at your destination whether you traveled there by luxury sports car or by cheap junk. Same here according to Reb Moshe the milk is just as much CY if it got there by Reb Yankel mashgiach or thought the USDA.May 23, 2010 4:58 am at 4:58 am #685360
Why then does Rav Moshe tell a Baal Nefesh to not eat CS?May 23, 2010 5:23 am at 5:23 am #685361
fabie – “The words of Reb Moishe are, “I personally am Machmir, and a Ba’al Nefesh should be Machmir.””
But Rav Moshe did drink CS when CY was not on the table. So what does machmir mean and what does Baal Nefesh mean? It means if it’s convenient, use CY, but you don’t have to go out of your way.May 23, 2010 5:30 am at 5:30 am #685362
I don’t think Rav Moshe personally drank CS even if CY wasn’t on the table. I heard he allowed family members to, but he was always personally machmir. (I heard he once threw up when he heard he may have inadvertently drunk CS.)May 23, 2010 5:47 am at 5:47 am #685363
Trying my best – “I don’t think Rav Moshe personally drank CS even if CY wasn’t on the table”
Wrong.May 23, 2010 5:50 am at 5:50 am #685364
On your say-so?May 23, 2010 5:54 am at 5:54 am #685365
“I HEARD he once threw up when he heard he may have inadvertently drunk CS.”May 23, 2010 6:41 am at 6:41 am #685366
Disregard my say-so and disregard your say-so and we are back to what we know Rav Moshe wrote in the IM. A Baal Nefesh, writes Rav Moshe, should not eat CS. So Rav Moshe does differentiate.May 23, 2010 6:43 am at 6:43 am #685367
what’s a baal nefesh?May 23, 2010 7:04 am at 7:04 am #685368
Someone who cares about his Neshomo. “Baal Nefesh”May 23, 2010 7:28 am at 7:28 am #685369
A more formal definition of Baal Nefesh…
Rashi in Chullin 6a defines a Baal Nefesh as “a kosher person.”
In Pesachim 40a (where the Gemara says in a particular case of chametz, that for a baal nefesh it is assur) there are two versions of Rashi defining a Baal Nefesh. One is as a “chasid” and the other is as a “Yirei Shmayim hachared al nafsho.”
Rabbeinu Chananel defines a Baal Nefesh as “A person who distances himself from sin and is very careful with himself.”
(In Shulchan Aruch Yorah Deah the Ramah in 116:7 says “baal nefesh yachmir” and the Mishne Brura also uses the term “Ba’al Nefesh Yachmir” on occasion, some other instances of Baal Nefesh being referred to in psak.)May 23, 2010 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #685370mazal77Participant
I was reading in one of the recent jewish weeklies, about cholov yisrael cheese making and the article mentioned something about cows that had some kind of surgery that made those cows not halachally permissible to use the milk from. The CY companies do not use these cows that had the surgery. Being that is the case, and the CS companies use these surgically altered cows, definetly makes the case for myself to use only CY products.May 23, 2010 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #685371qawsMember
What’s the deal with powdered milk and with hard cheese. I have heard that it is impossible for powdered milk and hard cheese to be made from non-cow milk. If this is so, why don’t people eat hard cheese that isn’t cholov yisroel? Why don’t people eat products with powdered milk? Did you know that hersheys uses powdered milk in their chocolate bars?May 23, 2010 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #685372
TMB – “A more formal definition of Baal Nefesh…In Pesachim 40a where the Gemara says in a particular case of chametz, that for a baal nefesh it is assur..”
Rav Nachman, Rav Huna, and Rabba bar Avuah held that grain could be washed.
So are you saying that Rav Nachman, Rav Huna, and Rabba bar Avuah were not frum enough since they did not consider themselves to be a Baal Nefesh?
And TMB, what besides CY does a Baal Nefesh abstain from? And is a Baal Nefesh MACHMIR on HIMSELF all the time?
So according to Rav Moshe, if this is the definition of who you are, you should be machmir. But says, Rav Moshe, regular milk of dairy companies are muter without any doubt and he says that one should not criticize anyone from drinking it.May 23, 2010 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #685373
cherrybim: When in doubt, check Rashi.
Rashi on that Gemorah (Pesachim 40a) says a Baal Nefesh means a “chasid” or a “Yirei Shmayim hachared al nafsho.”May 23, 2010 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #685374
qaws: hard cheese is certainly a problem as clear from the Gemarra Avoda Zara. Butter and powdered milk were once said to be impossible to produce from non-Kosher milk, but with modern methods of food production this heter is no longer relevantMay 23, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #685375
When in doubt, check with the Poskim and Rabbonim of your dor and local.May 23, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #685376
Exactly. And the posek hador, Rav Moshe, said a Baal Nefesh should not eat CS.
Glad we can agree.May 23, 2010 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #685377
As hello99 said, the gemara says hard cheese is a problem. In fact, my rav holds that although c.s. is mutar lechatchila for everyone he still holds that hard cheese is assur, because there is a gezeirah in the gemara against gevinas akum regardless of how sure we are that nothing was added – it is similar the gezeirah of pas akum and bishul akum.
Powdered milk has another heter besides what you mentioned. R’ Ruderman and R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank held that since powdered milk did not exist at the time of the gezeirah (assuming there was a gezeirah on milk and not just cheese, not like my rav) it never became assur.May 23, 2010 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #685378
“So are you saying that Rav Nachman, Rav Huna, and Rabba bar Avuah were not frum enough since they did not consider themselves to be a Baal Nefesh?”;;;;;;;;;;;;
So are you saying that Rabba was ‘too frum’?
If not following Rav Nachuman and Rav Huna etc… is to claim that the person not following them is saying “They are not frum enough” then doing the opposite must by that logic, be saying that Rabba was being more machmir then he had a right to be, even when it was apparantly, a case of actual possible issues of kashrus and not just a matter of being “more machmir”.
;;;;;;;;;;”And TMB, what besides CY does a Baal Nefesh abstain from? And is a Baal Nefesh MACHMIR on HIMSELF all the time?
The above paragraph certainly seems to be contradicting the paragraph below, when someone is accused of forbidding what is allowed and I believe similar wording is used in some Halachas, to say, people are not allowed to do such things.
It certainly sounds like quite a harsh criticism when the next paragraph seems to be against criticising those who do not follow
things that the criticisers themselves, do.
;;;;;;;;;”So according to Rav Moshe, if this is the definition of who you are, you should be machmir. But says, Rav Moshe, regular milk of dairy companies are muter without any doubt and he says that one should not criticize anyone from drinking it. “;;;;;;;
This is what this thread looked like in the beginning;
An excuse to criticise those who drink only C’Y’ while at the time, demanding better treatment from those they criticise, to not do the same critricising, of those who drink C’S’
“I can criticise you, all I want, but don’t you dare criticise me”.
And nothing in any of these posts has done anything to convince me, that my first impressions of this thread, were wrong, in any way, shape or form.May 23, 2010 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #685380
cherrybim: When in doubt, check with the Poskim and Rabbonim of your dor and local.
Then why do YOU drink CS based on Reb Moshe’s psak. He is no longer of our generation nor do you apparently live in Manhattan. The majority of living Poskim in Brooklyn are chassidishe and do NOT permit CS.May 23, 2010 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #685381
hereorthere: “This is what this thread looked like in the beginning; An excuse to criticise those who drink only C’Y'”
Actually the OP was criticizing people who drink CS!!!May 23, 2010 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #685382emoticon613Member
this is a shtickle crazy. why don’t we all eat what we eat, drink what we drink, since no one is convincing anyone else, and all be a lot happier and calmer that we’re not arguing anymore!!
i personally eat cholov yisrael, many of my friends and also my family eat cholov stam, and we all love each other just fine. so stop it already! we’re all just tearing each other apart and there’s no tachlis to it!May 23, 2010 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #685383
Well the OP asked a question and then all those who apprantly have a problem with those who are “too machmir” jumped down the throats of anyone who defended holding by C’Y’ going so far as to strongly imply if not outright ‘say’ that all the Rabbonnim held that they were “the same” and that anyone who did not agree was automatically holding themselves as ‘better’ then those who drink C’S’.
This reminds me of non Jews who hate Jews, for think they are better then non Jews, because Jews are “the Chosen People”.
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