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I have a few questions about being machbid on Cholov Yisroel (please keep in mind that I am a BT, and only went to a bais yaakov school for twelfth grade):
1. If Rav Moshe Feinstein’s heter does not apply anymore, than why is there a such thing as OU-D?
2. If we are required to drink cholov Yisroel milk/ keep cholov yisroel, then is that like saying we don’t trust other hechshers like the ou, crc, etc when it comes to certifying dairy products, especially because the supervisors, are still orthodox rabbis?
3. The US has laws that prevent anything else from being put into cows milk, so why would farmers violate that law, and have their products certified by jewish organizations, and even if not by jewish organizations, doesn’t the us government inspect these farms where the milk is produced?
Hi snowbunny (cute name),
Im not an expert in this sugya, but from what I understand R’ Moshe was posek the way that he did BECAUSE of the stuff you listed in #3. Also, we still need OU-D, because when you live in a place where there is no chalav Yisrael (or if it is outrageously expensive), then you are allowed to eat chalav stam. Not only that, but if you are noheg to eat chalav stam in your town where chalav Yisrael is hard to come by, and you travel to New York, for example, where CY is readily available, you are still permitted to eat chalav stam.
Feel free to correct any misinformation I may have, anyone.
These days when kosher milk is so freely available, i see no reason you should have to buy non kosher milk?
Should you in the very unlikely case, be left with no choice i would say you could buy non kosher cows milk. buy a famous brand, as they will be less likely to feel the need to add anything to save costs. As they would be worried about getting caught out.
@ Snowbunny – May I point out is that many people do NOT eat chalav yisrael, despite the comments above.
There is no such thing as ‘not kosher’ milk that you can drink. If something isn’t kosher you can’t drink it. There is non chalav yisrael milk that you can drink, and it has an ou and is 100% kosher.
If you are unsure if you should be following a CHUMRA or not (yes, it is a chumra), ask your Rabbi.
In a general sense (Stating my opinion here) If you are going to ask practical questions on this forum, and taking the answers at face value you will be taking on an awful lot of chumrot that are presented here as obligations. Better to be informed.
To juxtapose another thread here – I will opine that a great contributor to OTD-ism is precisely the attitude expressed above. Non-chalav yisrael = non kosher. Therefore if i eat a Hershey bar i may as well go have a blt.
This is messed up, people.
Murphy
Chalav stam is NOT “non kosher milk”.
Pigs milk is not kosher.
Chalav stam milk usually has a reliable hashgacha (OU, OK..)
If you don’t keep these that’s your choice, but to call kosher “non kosher” is just wrong and misleading.
snowbunny: Who says that R’ Moshe’s heter doesn’t apply anymore?
Additionally, even if it doesn’t, R’ Belsky issued a psak which is different than R’ Moshe’s psak, which allows it.
As for trusting hechsherim, that’s a choice you need to make for yourself.
you also need ou-d to let you know not to mix this product with anything fleishigs (meat) that you are eating, as it would constitute as dairy.
this topic has been discussed before in several threads, you can view them here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/gimme-a-break-cholov-yisroel
Along the lines of this topic perhaps someone in the CR can answer:
I understand as to why Kosher meat is much more expensive then treif but why must Chalav yisrael and kosher cheese product(other then fresh milk) cost between 50-75% more then chalav stam or non-kosher?
A few examples a box of chalav stam ice cream sandwiches are 5-6 dollars while a box of smaller chalav yisrael are between 6-8 dollars. A large pack of non-kosher string cheese costs five dollars kosher is between 10-12 dollars.Chalav stam cream cheese bet. $1.79 and $2.50 chalav yisrael bet.4-5 dollars
In my admittedly basic understanding of Chalav Yisrael aside from shemira and delivery cost, I do not fully know the costs involved or the reasons for the cost differentials.
Also are we paying for some products to be labeled chalav Yisrael when it is do to misunderstanding as to whether certification is truly necessary? (i.e. certain milk powder products)
It could be I picked a wrong comparison but as compared to meat I can’t find the reason for the higher price as compared to treif.
Comparing cheese to meat:You dont need an army of shochtim, kashrus inspectors, people flying around to cattle ranches, inspections on every level, and even after it reaches the retail level we still need supervision for meat.
Re cheese product: after it is manufactured by machinery its done. We pay at least double for many chalav yisroel products even in heavily Jewish populated areas.
Additionally, with many non-Jews worried about by-products there are also many non-jewish cheese manufactures that do not use trief.There is a chance with certain modifications that it is possible to manufacture kosher cheese on a large scale.Or kosher manufactures could market to those that don’t want treif and could sell on a larger scale bringing down overall manufacturing cost. Many non-Jews by kosher for the reason of no by-products and increased supervision.
Many people read this forum. Perhaps someone could please shed some light on the cost and manufacturing processes of kosher cheese/dairy product.(I do realize that kosher does have to cost more but why so much more)
The term “chalav stam” is not used by R’ Moshe. He uses the term chalav hacompanies. Chalav stam is a perjorative term created by those who disagreed with the psak of R’ Moshe (although I must admit it is a nicer term, than chalav akum). Which leads me to my next comment, R’ Moshe did not give a “heter”, he gave a psak that the government regulation and oversight satifies the takana of chazal. Yes, he does say a bal nefesh should drink chalav yisroel and directs yeshivos to do the same despite the added cost, it does not change the fact that he says that as far as the takana of chazal is concerned, chalav hacompanies in the USA meets the requirement.
“A few examples a box of chalav stam ice cream sandwiches are 5-6 dollars while a box of smaller chalav yisrael are between 6-8 dollars. A large pack of non-kosher string cheese costs five dollars kosher is between 10-12 dollars.Chalav stam cream cheese bet. $1.79 and $2.50 chalav yisrael bet.4-5 dollars”
Look at the milk itself. What is the avg price for half gallon of CY milk compared to a gallon of chalav hacompanies? Can one purchase a gallon of CY milk in the greater NYC area where the largest concentration of CY users in the USA are? Why not?
I think that most people who are insistent on buying milk davka labeled “Halav Yisrael” do so out of mystical considerations, as opposed to concrete halakha. The Rambam, Ma’achalos Asuros 3:13, links the prohibition of non-Jewish milk specifically to the risk of non-kosher milk being mixed in; when there is no suspicion of treif milk according to the halacha here, there would be no prohibition. The Rivash and Rashbash, likewise, learn the gemara (Avodah Zarah 35b) as not instituting an across-the-board gezera; they permitted the milk of non-Jews without a Jew present at the milking when it was known in a particular region
that non-kosher animals were not being milked. The Radbaz and Pri Chadash felt the same, and the latter paskens that when it is presumed that the milk being sold by the non-Jews is from kosher animals, based on the fact that non-kosher animals were not
being commercially milked in that region and, in any event, if some non-kosher milk was around it was more expensive than kosher milk (as is normally the case when non-kosher animals are not commercially milked), one may partake of such milk and rely on the presumption that the non-Jews would not conduct in an
forbidden). The Talmud permitted the muryas of non- Jews when wine was more expensive than fish oil.
Even the Hazon Ish holds like Reb Moshe and all the rishonim I quoted above. I don’t see any compelling halakhic reason for “halav yisrael.”
“I also understand that there is a need for the OU-D hechsher.”
Of
course there is. Even people who are stringent regarding “chalav yisroel” eat certain things that are not. A neighbor of mine eats non CY Yogurt, although milk and cheeses is exclusively CY. If an item contained yogurt and was dairy, he would want to know. The yogurt also must be kosher. Why an OU-D appears on a container of milk, was once expplained to me by an employee of the OU. A company pays for the certification and all products in their line that meet the OU requirements get the symbol. Even the milk. It neither adds or detracts from the status of the milk.
“I heard a seminary girl tell me that her school told her not to eat from a certain hechsher because it is the equivalent to OU,”
Go into Boro Park or Williamsburg and you will find many people who do not eat products with an OU. Sometimes it is due to kashrus concerns (EG: The way certain iced tea companies cool down their cans after pasteurization, is problematic according to some opinions if part of the product mix is non kosher grape flavor iced tea – or any non kosher flavor – grape being the most common) but mainly it is because of politics. Dont sweat it. Follow your parents and your Rav, not an ignorant seminary friend.
“I completely trust that the OU is kosher, because I grew up eating it my whole life in the states, but why would Israelis think their hechsherim are much better than the ou”
I think the OU is better than many hechsherim, including Israeli and “heimish”, but that is because I am familiar with the business (and rest assured, it IS a business).
“especially if they have to eat something when recruiting in the states for their seminaries, its not like they bring a suitcase full of three weeks worth of food. That would be kinda illegal.”
This is not really a concern. One can live their entire life in the USA and not eat a single food product labeled with an OU. What they dont know however, is that in the background their own heimishe hechsher relies on the OU. This is true for many commercial products (flavorings and the like for example) where the heimishe hechsherim have very little involvement in the certification process and certify very little in the way of products.
“I heard a seminary girl tell me that her school told her not to eat from a certain hechsher because it is the equivalent to OU,”
Many (if not most) of the Heimish brands rely on the OU, either in their ingredients or they go to OU certified factories and do their own run and put on their own hashgacha. It’s impossible to not use the OU if you are eating processed foods.
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