May 12, 2010 12:16 am at 12:16 am #591656
why do people still eat chalav stam if everything has its version or imitation in chalav yisroel. It is much better to eat cholov yisroel ONLY. Why do people still feel a need to eat cholov stamMay 12, 2010 2:47 am at 2:47 am #685177
“It is much better to eat cholov yisroel ONLY. Why do people still feel a need to eat cholov stam”
And why do people feel the need to put down those who eat chalav stam? You can eat what you want; let others eat what they want.
I think the problem here is more that one is looking down on the other rather than someone is eating chalav stam.May 12, 2010 3:00 am at 3:00 am #685178
the.nurse, you haven’t addressed my question. i’m not looking down at anyone, i’m just merely wondering why people have to eat cholov stam, sorry about the way i phraised itMay 12, 2010 3:13 am at 3:13 am #685179
I think most of the time, those who look down on others are those who eat (or drink) Chalov Stam (not that everyone who eats Chalov Stam, looks down on others, but most of those who do look down on others are those who eat Cholov Stam as opposed to those who eat only Cholov Yisroael), look down on those who don’t, with an attitude that “You don’t think I’m kosher, you are just too fanatical.
I can still keep kosher without being a ‘fanatic’, like you.”May 12, 2010 3:15 am at 3:15 am #685180kapustaParticipant
While its very nice to have only cholov Yisroel (provided one is in an area where products are generally available in cholov Yisroel) there is nothing wrong with cholov stam. If there are two companies that produce (for lack of a better word) chicken and meat, and one has a better hechsher (for a higher cost), while its very nice to buy the more expensive company, if kashrus-wise the cheaper company is fine, then there is nothing wrong with buying the less-expensive one. NOTHING.
nurse, I’m with you 100%.May 12, 2010 3:17 am at 3:17 am #685181
Honestly, I know a family that eats chalav stam, and they don’t look up or down on anyone that doesn’t. They just eat it. I happen not to eat it. However, I don’t look up or down (or sideways, or anything else for that matter!) on anyone that does eat it. I think we just have to chill out a little and let everyone do what their local Rabbi tells them.May 12, 2010 3:18 am at 3:18 am #685182
kapusta, you rock 🙂May 12, 2010 3:22 am at 3:22 am #685183
I think if Cholov Stam and Cholov Yisroael were simply different levels of kashrus with nothing more to it, It would seem strange then that Rav Moshe Feinstein (sp) A’H’, wrote a section especially on Cholov Stam and Cholov Yisroael.
I am not scholarly enough to go into the whole argument about what he said, that is for scholars (and I am no scholar) to debate.
But it is undeniable that The Rav spent time to address the issue, so just form that, it seems to me to be a bigger issue then simply whether you eat meat strictly from a Heimishe Hescher, or not.May 12, 2010 3:47 am at 3:47 am #685184May 12, 2010 3:51 am at 3:51 am #685185
the.nurse – According to some, chalav Yisroel is preferable where it is readily available. However, my rav holds that there is no preference whatsoever, and there are other prominent rabbanim who hold the same way. I’m not saying everyone should be noheig that way – everyone should follow their rav. But this is why many people don’t bother specifically buying chalav yisroel.May 12, 2010 3:53 am at 3:53 am #685186
RAv Moshe said its 100% mutar WHEN THERE IS NOTHING ELSE…But..May 12, 2010 4:01 am at 4:01 am #685187mischiefmakerMember
I personally eat chalav yisroel only but I totally think it’s wrong that people have the attitude that you’re “not as kosher” if you don’t. I know many very kosher people that eat chalav stam. Most poskim hold that either is fine depending how machmir you are and what your minhag is.May 12, 2010 4:17 am at 4:17 am #685188smartcookieMember
I don’t eat chalav stam but never look down at someone who does. As long as they’re following a rav I’m ok with it.
Eili v’eili divrei elokim chaim.May 12, 2010 4:33 am at 4:33 am #685189
why do people still eat chalav stam if everything has its version or imitation in chalav yisroel. It is much better to eat cholov yisroel ONLY. Why do people still feel a need to eat cholov stam
And there’s your first logical error.
The WolfMay 12, 2010 4:39 am at 4:39 am #685190
wolf, HUH??May 12, 2010 10:42 am at 10:42 am #685191nnnnnnMember
“everything has its version or imitation in chalav yisroel” what about entemens dunken donuts reeses, twix, m&ms, snickers, take 5, three muskeeteers…May 12, 2010 10:47 am at 10:47 am #685192Feif UnParticipant
Hashem Is Everywhere, the letter where R’ Moshe zt”l said that was for one specific case (a yeshiva which had always served only cholov Yisrael was thinking of switching), not for everyone. In his teshuva in the Igros Moshe, he says clearly that it is muttar for everyone. R’ Belsky said the same thing now, for a different reason than R’ Moshe said then.May 12, 2010 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #685193
Yes there are Cholov Yisroael versions of things that are at least similar (if not exactly alike) to everything you mentioned.
The kosher version of M&M’s are even called that name by those who eat them, even though the name on the package is something named from a kosher company and is not made by the same company that makes M&M’s, but they taste the same 🙂
Now something like, Reeses Peanut Butter cups and Butter Finger bars, I have not seen in Cholov Yisroael, recently, but most things are available in Cholov Yisroael versions.May 12, 2010 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #685194SJSinNYCMember
When someone produces organic chalav yisroel milk, then we’ll talk.May 12, 2010 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #685195
I don’t understand what is going on here. If someone knows the sugya and holds a certain way, beseder. But nobody seems to be arguing the actual sugya over here. It’s just “what did Rav Moshe hold?” Why is that relevant? Why don’t you just follow your rav? If you don’t have a rav, who gave you a right to just pick things that Rav Moshe said if there are others who argue?
There are two legitimate ways to determine a halacha: By figuring it out yourself if you know the sugya well enough and are capable of doing so, and by following your rav who you choose to follow whenever you are incapable of doing that. Picking and choosing kulas and chumras without any understanding of the actual halacha is simply intellectually dishonest.May 12, 2010 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #685196anon for thisParticipant
My daughter has celiac disease. Finding gluten-free kosher food isn’t alway easy. And finding gluten-free foods that she likes can be a real challenge, because many gluten-free foods don’t taste as good as their gluten-containing counterparts. I’m not going to limit her options further by restricting her to a c”y diet.
I used to buy c”y milk, but stopped when I found it spoiled within a couple of days of purchase, long before the stated expiration date. I rarely have that problem with cholov stam milk.
Another reason that people may not use c”y exclusively is that c”y products tend to cost much more than their cholov stam counterparts, and are rarely discounted.
Of course all of this is assuming that one’s rav (as ours does) permits the use of chalav stam.May 12, 2010 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #685197rescue37Participant
$2.99 a gallon for chalav ha’companies vs. a similar price for a 1/2 gallon of chalav yisroel that generally spoils faster.
If my family drank a lot of milk, the gallon containers would be the way to go.May 12, 2010 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #685198cherrybimParticipant
Hashem Is Everywhere – “RAv Moshe said its 100% mutar WHEN THERE IS NOTHING ELSE…But..”
While Rav Moshe said it was admirable to drink cholov yisroel, he never qualified that chlov stam was only muter when there is nothing else.May 12, 2010 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #685199
When my husband took on Cholov Yisroel, he was advised by his Rov not to inform his parents of this switch and to continue eating Cholov Stam in their home- i.e.- Kashrus is a big enough deal, but “more kosher”?!
We continue to buy only Cholov Yisroel, but when at my in-laws…as long as it’s kosher. Our children accept that we only eat Breyer’s ice cream and Dannon yogurt at Grandma’s…except once, at the grocery, when my 4-year old asked me to pretend I’m Grandma…May 12, 2010 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #685200
but whats that teaching your kids? its either kosher or not like i dont get those familys who only eat cholov stam outside the house so everythings ok as long as its not in the house? its the wrong hashkofos.May 12, 2010 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #685201qaMember
When my wife became a baalas teshuva and took on kosher, she was advised not to inform her parents of this switch and to continue eating treif in their home- i.e.- Kashrus is a big enough deal, but include the parents also?!
We continue to buy only Kosher, but when at my in-laws…as long as it looks kosher. Our children accept that we only eat McDonald’s burger’s and Tyson poultry at Grandpa’s…except once, at the grocery, when my 4-year old asked me to pretend I’m Grandpa…May 12, 2010 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #685202YW Moderator-80Member
“but” should be capitalized.
One shouldn’t start a sentence with a preposition.
“what” should have an apostrophe.
“Its” should have an apostrophe.
Your next “sentence” is a run on sentence and needs to be punctuated or divided.
“dont” needs an apostrophe.
“familys is spelled: “families”
“everythings” needs an apostrophe.
“its” needs an apostrophe, two instances.
I only point this out because I know you are interested in proper spelling and grammar, as evidenced in your post in another thread.May 12, 2010 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #685203
Thanks for correcting meMay 12, 2010 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #685204SJSinNYCMember
It teaches your kids that there are different piskei halacha out there. If its chalav stam, in an unideal situation (according to that Rav) its permissible.
I was always told that if someone is competent in halacha, I am allowed to trust them, even if I would do soemthing different (like checking for bugs). Perhaps this is somewhat like the same principle.May 12, 2010 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #685205
jewish girl – You have a point when it comes to people who in principle do differently inside the house than outside. But many just do it practically, i.e. in truth they have no problem with c.s. but since they want people to eat in their house they only have c.y. at home. This kind of thing is fairly common in Israel with regard to different hashgachos; though many people eat, say, Rabbanut, they will only bring Badatz into their house so that more people will feel comfortable eating by them.
Another thing is that even among those who forbid c.s. there are those who say it’s only a chumra, not a halacha. In your own home you may want to keep this chumra, but when it is at the expense of another person’s honor it might not be the right thing, hence the “we only eat it at our grandparent’s house” rule.
On a side note, it is always important to know what is halacha and what is only chumra, especially for this kind of situation.May 12, 2010 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #685206anonymrsParticipant
what does chalav yisrael have to do with not kosher? of all the people i know who are makpid, not one of them thinks chalav stam is treif. my brother in law will eat at my parents house, even though their keilim have been used with chalav stam. when my husband and i go to my parents, i tell my mother not to go out of her way,and not to make herself crazy. i was told to do that by our rav, and it was NOT for shalom reasons. what are we teaching our kids? that there is more than one way to be a good, frum jew, and one was is not better than another.May 12, 2010 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #685207
I think qa was trying to prove his/her point.May 12, 2010 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #685208anonymrsParticipant
also, as an aside, like yitayningwut said, many people (my family included) are makpid in the house so that EVERYONE will eat in their house. my husband and i decided when we got married that we want everyone to be able to eat here, and we recognized that in order to be able to do that, we needed to have certain standards in our house.May 13, 2010 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #685209
Jewish girl and qa:
I believe that an orthodox Rav will NOT advise someone who observes Kashrus to eat treif in his parents’ home because, according to Halocha, one may (respectfully) disobey parents if they tell him to violate Halocha.
As SJS, yita, and anon (thank you!) pointed out, while Kashrus observance is black-and-white Halocha, there are gray areas (stringencies) within this realm, such as Cholov Yisroel. It is NOT “either kosher or not”; rather, we follow the p’sak of our Rav, who maintains that while Cholov Yisroel is the preferable option, Kibbud Av V’aim is actual Halocha and thus overrides Cholov Yisroel.
“i dont get those familys who only eat cholov stam outside the house so everythings ok as long as its not in the house? its the wrong hashkofos.”
Neither do I! We keep Cholov Yisroel unless there is a possibility of violating Halocha by doing so. I should mention that my husband usually manages to avoid eating Cholov Stam at his parents, but if his mother cooked something containing it, he eats it. However, he allows the children and me to eat the ice cream and yogurts, as per the p’sak of our Rav.
What does this teach our children?
That we follow the p’sak of our Rav. In this case, we understand the reason: Kibbud Av V’aim (Halocha) overrides Cholov Yisroel (Chumra).May 13, 2010 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #685210mgsMember
299 half a gallon vs 215 a gallon at costco. i spent time figuring out average cost difference for CY versus CS and the average difference is 180 dollars amonth for a fimily with 5 children or over 2000 a yearMay 13, 2010 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #685211
yiddishkeit is expensive
are you gonna go buy non kosher meat becouse the kosher meat is to expensive?May 13, 2010 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #685212
are you gonna go buy non kosher meat becouse the kosher meat is to expensive?
Faulty analogy. Non-kosher meat is outright forbidden. Cholov Stam is not. Non-kosher is a min HaTorah, Cholov Stam is not.
The WolfMay 13, 2010 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #685213homellParticipant
If People be so carefully in Halochos ben Adam l’Havero, as Ben Adam L’Makom.May 13, 2010 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #685215
The point is clear. The OP is mistaken in saying that Chalav Yisroel is comparable to Chalav Stam. There are glaring differences in avaiability, whether your are looking for organic, competitive price, freshness that lasts longer than it takes to bring your purchase home, variety in choice of products (especially chocolate/chocolate mix), or even simply to be able to buy kosher products bearing an OU-D.
Plus, has anyone ever heard of a pig dairy farm? USDA is the best regulating authority in America. It is thousands of times more competent than the FDA. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that the only milk harvested in dairy farms in America is cow milk. There’s not much you can trust in government these days, but milk is one of the things you can (I wonder why….). Chalav Yisroel is simply a chumra, like any other chumra. The actual milk you are drinking does not contain a higher percentage of cow milk than Chalav Stam. Guaranteed.May 13, 2010 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #685216speaktruthMember
A lot of times it also depends on where you live.
Many people in out of town communities have a very small selection of chalov yisroel.
Additionally, in this day, the Federal government has many legal requirements for listing ingredients (primarily due to allergies) and it has to list what type of milk. Food companies are scared enough that they would generally not be tempted to switch ingredients and a lot of people and reliable poskim rely on this.May 13, 2010 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #685217
Masa U’Matan publication in Lakewood once wrote:
“A Yid stopped at a roadside place where they had Cholov Yisroel milk and requested that type in his coffee. The (aino Yehudi) worker poured it, and then added Cholov Stam milk to the container. When questioned, the worker said, ‘It’s all the same.’
For those of you who think it’s not the same, remember this incident.”May 13, 2010 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #685218speaktruthMember
Sorry squeak- didn’t see ur post as I was writing mine but I agree with you.
Additionally, it is a personal decision which e/o should ask their own shaylot about. Not something which any one else should judge or question.May 13, 2010 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #685219
TT- I find the story amusing, but what is your point? Are the cholov yisroel companies really just buying milk at Costco and pouring it into their bottles?May 13, 2010 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #685220newposterMember
I can’t believe that nobody pointed out yet that chalav yisroel is NOT a chumrah! Chalav Stam is a completely American invention due to the goverment standards that assure us that it is only cow’s milk. In halacha, there is Chalav Yisroel and Chalav Akum. “Jewish milk”, that was watched by a Jew is mutar to drink and “goyish milk” that was not watched is completely assur. R Moshe Feinstein gave a HETER in America to drink milk that is supervised by the goverment to ensure that it is only cow’s milk, hence a fairly modern term, Chalav Stam. To call Chalav Yisroel “just a chumrah” is completely innaccurate.May 13, 2010 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #685221
Yes, technically you are correct. Cholov Yisroel is an actual halacha.
However, what Cholov Yisroel means today is not quite the same as it meant when first enacted.
The point of Cholov Yisroel is to make sure that the milk you are getting is genuine cow’s milk (or milk from another kosher animal). It is not a decree (such as bishul akum, for example) against intermarriage.
Since the main concern of ChY is whether or not the milk is genuine cow’s milk, then if you can be sure that the milk is kosher, then there is no need to have it watched by a Jew.
The question then boils down to is the government a good enough shomer to make sure the milk is cow’s milk. Those that hold that it’s okay to eat Cholov Stam maintain that the government puts enough mechanisms in place to ensure the milk is genuine cow’s milk. Those that only eat ChY (as it’s termed today) apparently maintain that that’s not the case. In that sense, ChY is a chumra.
Nonetheless, everyone agrees that if you travel somewhere where governmental authority cannot guarantee that the milk is kosher (think Vietnam, Laos, Zimbabwe, etc.), then you must only drink milk watched by a Jew as the halacha of ChY dictates.
The WolfMay 13, 2010 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #685222
So did Rav Feinstein specifically say that, if someone poured Cholov Stam into a Cholov Yisroael container there was no difference?
Did I remember it wrong something about a case where he rulled it ok for a mother feeding her baby where there was no choice, but in a place like Boro Park he had rulled that there was no reason not to be strict with Cholov Yisroael as opposed to Cholov Stam?
I do not know these things but I thought I had heard something about it?
Am I wrong?
Further I had heard some cases of some milk producers trying to get away with mixing in pigs milk into regular milk because it makes more milk because pigs milk is much sweeter and thicker?
I thought I had heard of this happening even in America?
Am I wrong or has anyone else, also heard of this?May 13, 2010 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #685223
hereorthere- you are definitely mistaken on both counts. Pouring Ch”Stam into a CY container accopmlishes nothing but deceit. Mixing pigs milk into USDA milk is against the law (unless marked so), and impossible to hide given the large scale nature of USDA milk production and the tight daily surveillance.May 13, 2010 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #685224cherrybimParticipant
hereorthere – “but in a place like Boro Park he had rulled that there was no reason not to be strict with Cholov Yisroael as opposed to Cholov Stam?”
While Rav Moshe said it was admirable to drink cholov yisroel, he never qualified that “chlov stam” in America was only muter when there is nothing else.May 13, 2010 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #685225
newposter – You’re arguing about nothing more than semantics. You should be able to tell from the context that anyone here who said c.y. is only a chumra said so in relation to c.s. and not in relation to real chalav akum.May 13, 2010 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #685226volvieMember
But the machlokes is if what is referred to as “Cholov Stam” is in fact Cholov Yisroel or not. If Cholov Stam is halachicly Cholov Yisroel then it is kosher. If Cholov Stam is halachicly not Cholov Yisroel then it is not kosher.
- The topic ‘Cholov Stam’ is closed to new replies.