Choson & Kallah Walking Together Into Wedding Hall – Jewish or Gentile?

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  • #1449314
    Joseph
    Participant

    Is there a mekor for the Choson and Kallah walking together into the wedding hall at the beginning of the dancing (and making a big to-do about it, “First time Mr. & Mrs”…, etc)?; is it something that Yidden did at chasunas in Europe and by the Sephardim before America? Or is something that carried over to us from the goyim?

    My preliminary understanding is that we didn’t do this before we came to America. It’s a foreign idea that creeped into our simchas. But I’m ready to be corrected with sources if mistaken.

    #1449414
    adocs
    Participant

    Joseph,

    How was it done in the past?

    #1449415

    Funny story but wearing hat,jacket,suit and tie actually come from the goyim as do many other things in our culture
    P.s. they didn’t have a keyboard player in Europe

    #1449451
    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Hiring a stretch limo and going to a hotel sfter the wedding is not goyish?

    #1449452
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Chazal bring down that it was dor ha’midbar that first started the minhag of renting simcha halls and having the Lipa Shmetzer of their generation perform at chassanas……Just about every generation of yidden has put its spin on the conduct of simchas and added to the minhagim which evolve over time. There is no “right” or “wrong” way for the chassn/kallah to arrive at the simcha hall….in India they arrive on an Elephant (not sure about yidden in India)….here in the NYC area, they may arrive in an Oddessy or SUV (if the kallah is wearing her hair up) but may have to walk the last block or two because all of the cars double and triple parked in front of the simcha hall.

    #1449457
    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Joseph, correct me if im wrong but way back in europe/russia/spain/poland/italy etc. No mechitzas existed at weddings! ,

    #1449486
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    On the night of the l’chayim do the chosson and kallah walk into the house together or separate?

    GH: I am not sure what wedding your talking about but I don’t know of many weddings where the chupa takes place at one location forcing the chosson and kallah to drive to another location (like the goyim actually do by marrying in their place of worship and the catering hall is miles away).

    #1449487
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Of course it came from Goyim
    90% of our daily activities came from Goyim. Goyim slept, ate and wore clothing before we came along.
    The question is does that make it assur.
    Stop pushing it off learn Y”D 178 (Its a short siman) and you will finally have a grasp on this subject

    #1449517
    Joseph
    Participant

    Do very Chasidish newlyweds walk in side-by-side into the hall?

    #1449571
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    “..way back in europe/russia/spain/poland/italy etc. No mechitzas existed..”

    Really? Maybe they didn’t daven or learn then eaither? Care to recall the story of the Satmar Rav when he was in Europe? – How someone was grinded in his own grinding plant, because he didn’t listen to the Rav’s warnings about having a Mechitza.

    That’s the slippery slope path of the evolutionists… in the early days they didn’t keep the Torah, now we evolved into a nation that keeps HaShem’s mitzvohs…

    #1449572
    adocs
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Probably not as many chasidish weddings have the men and women in different rooms.

    Now instead of ignoring the numerous questions that were posed in response to your original post and asking another question, please start answering.

    #1449570
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Also, now this may blow your socks off so buckle up,
    I’m fairly certain that before announcing the new couple Yitzchok and Rivka they didn’t play the final countdown.
    They may have played baker street, but not more modern songs

    “Do very Chasidish newlyweds walk in side-by-side into the hall?”
    The “Very chasidish” IVe been too did not. but the majority which Id categorize as “regular chasidish” did.
    (these were from Boro park and few from Williamsburg. New Square, Kiryos Yoel may be different)

    #1449576
    apushatayid
    Participant

    By many, the custom is that the chosson walks out to escort the kallh to the chuppa (IE nisuin of old, where the kallah was brought into the rishus of the chosson), others dont consider the chuppa the nisuin, but, the later parts of the wedding ceremony including yichud and perhaps the hall where the seuda is taking place.

    By trolls the minhag is that the chosson escorts the kallah, as evidenced by shrek.

    #1449577
    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Do very Chasidish newlyweds walk in side-by-side into the hall?
    _————————————————–
    Since when are the chasidishe minhagim the go to answer for everyone else?
    Chassidim chassidim clap on shabbos should everyone take on thier minhag?
    Chassidim daven way past zman tfillah. Should we adapt to that too? Chassidim are more maykil when it comes to hilchos etuvin , should we adapt to those kulos?

    #1450350
    Joseph
    Participant

    “The “Very chasidish” IVe been too did not. but the majority which Id categorize as “regular chasidish” did.”

    Many of the regular Chasidish hamon hoam are like many of the non-Chasidish hamon hoam; they too have succumbed to the ways things are done in gentile weddings (in this regard).

    “By many, the custom is that the chosson walks out to escort the kallh to the chuppa (IE nisuin of old, where the kallah was brought into the rishus of the chosson),”

    Or, by some, the Choson walking the kallah FROM the chuppa (after it concluded) to the yichud room.

    “others dont consider the chuppa the nisuin, but, the later parts of the wedding ceremony including yichud and perhaps the hall where the seuda is taking place.”

    The hall with the meal after pictures are concluded makes no sense for what you describe. From the picture room to the party room?

    “Since when are the chasidishe minhagim the go to answer for everyone else?”

    I just used the very Chasidish as an example. It is the same by the very Yeshivish. Do you think that at Rav Malkiel’s sons weddings the Choson walked side by side with the kallah into the hall party room’s women’s section to the announcement of “For the very first time, Mr. & Mrs. Avrumi Kotler!!”?

    Which brings up the second part of this issue — the Choson walking into the women’s side of the mechitza (as a result of him walking side by side with the kallah into the hall), itself problematic — and sometimes the women even dancing up the kallah before the Choson left.

    Next we’ll discuss the issue of video taken of the women dancing that’s put into the wedding video that the Choson and other male members of the family and friends watch.

    #1450515
    Phil
    Participant

    “Do very Chasidish newlyweds walk in side-by-side into the hall?”

    Who gives a hoot? The rest of the Jewish world doesn’t have to adopt their practices. Many chassidim have the custom that the chosson holds the kallah’s hand as they leave the chupah. We should ask if perhaps this is a foreign idea that has creeped-in from the goyim.

    #1450517
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    apy: I am pretty sure that everyone agrees that Yichud is considered nesuin. I am not sure what the main ballroom has to do with nesuin. It is not the reshus of the Chosson.

    #1450510
    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Little FroggieParticipant
    “..way back in europe/russia/spain/poland/italy etc. No mechitzas existed..”

    Really? Maybe they didn’t daven or learn then eaither? Care to recall the story of the Satmar Rav when he was in Europe? – How someone was grinded in his own grinding plant, because he didn’t listen to the Rav’s warnings about having a Mechitza.
    ———————–
    Firstly the satmar rebbe was not a novi or a ban navi . He was rebbeh! Nothing more nothing less!
    There’s a saying that when it comes to sipurei tzaddikim (tales of the righteous), if you believe every story you are a certified idiot and if you dont believe any of it then you are an apikorus.

    #1450536
    GAON
    Participant

    “the Choson walking into the women’s side of the mechitza ”

    Joseph,

    There is definitely many mekoros and Al Pi Chassidic to that minhag, there is the minhag that the Choson escorts the kala to her seat. I will post sources soon.

    #1450533
    Joseph
    Participant

    “The rest of the Jewish world doesn’t have to adopt their practices.”

    Again, the very Yeshivish, non-Chasidim, and most very frum couples don’t follow this gentile wedding custom of the groom and bride walking in side-by-side to the wedding party. This idea comes from places foreign to Yidden.

    “Many chassidim have the custom that the chosson holds the kallah’s hand as they leave the chupah.”

    Some Litvish and other non-Chasidim have that same minhag. (i.e. Yeshiva Chaim Berlin.) It is brought down in the Seforim HaKedoshim.

    “the minhag that the Choson escorts the kala to her seat. I will post sources soon.”

    By some chasunas the Choson and Kallah sit next to each other. Escorting her to her seat then is simple. (Although I wonder if it is proper for the Choson/Kallah to be sitting where they can view both sides of the mechitza. Many chasunas the Choson and Kallah sit separately.) But in any event, the scenario I described is the Choson escorting the Kallah to the dancing in the women’s side of the mechitza — not to her seat.

    #1450578
    Curious1000
    Participant

    In Eretz Yisrael, in my personal experience, it depends on the band (not the choson, the band!)

    #1450586
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    You failed to understand what I’m trying to convey. I’m not concerned whether he’s a Chacham or Navi. Neither if he was both. I’m trying to tell you that Jewish Jews were shomrei Mitzvohs back then. And there was a big to-do when someone attempted to try and change that.

    #1450624
    akuperma
    Participant

    It would have to be Jewish, since after the ceremony goyim don’t leave. They have no equivalent of our “heder yichud”.

    #1450625
    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Of course, what we’re talking about here, namely the wedding dinner, is essentially a glorified sheva brachos. It has no significance beyond that. So the copious amounts of snark directed at the question and questioner are unwarranted, nobody’s suggesting the new couple’s entrance is anything other than a pointless bit of pageantry. It would be nice to hear someone address the question directly and mention that their grandparents did it or suchlike. If people are aiming random digs at chassidim apropos of nothing, it’s hardly a good sign.

    #1450616
    CS
    Participant

    I learned something interesting that applies here: one of the reasons why Hashem spread us through all the countries is so we can take the customs / culture / mannerisms is the country and elevate them by using them in a holy connect (obviously only in a way that is fine halachically.)

    That would definitely apply to the attire of the chosson mentioned above, or the way the tables are set, and could apply to the way they come in as well – unless it’s not very Aidel…

    A friend of my husband told him not to come in with me to the woman’s section because it’s not a Jewish thing and not Aidel, and so we posed together just outside the door, unfortunately the photographer missed it, and just got me standing there myself

    #1450601
    Phil
    Participant

    “Do you think that at Rav Malkiel’s sons weddings the Choson walked side by side with the kallah into the hall party room’s women’s section to the announcement of “For the very first time, Mr. & Mrs. Avrumi Kotler!!”?”

    Do you think Mr. & Mrs. Avrumi Kotler held hands while leaving the chupah? By that definitive measure, doing so must have crept-in from the goyim.

    While gedolim tirelessly endeavor to justify the practices of Jews, no matter how seemingly inexplicable, you tirelessly troll, nitpick and find fault. How sad.

    #1450636
    Joseph
    Participant

    NeutiquamErro: +1

    #1450637
    Joseph
    Participant

    “A friend of my husband told him not to come in with me to the woman’s section because it’s not a Jewish thing and not Aidel, and so we posed together just outside the door”

    Thank you for sharing your first-hand experience.

    #1450638
    akuperma
    Participant

    Specific wedding customs:

    “Mr. and Mrs. …. ” as referring to the hasan/kallah is clearly non-Jewish, as traditionally Jewish women did not change their names on marriage (prior to use of surnames, which were for the most part adopted by Ashkenazim in the 19th century)

    Entrance ceremony – Jews had the hasan and kallah walk to the huppah with their parents, anything else is non-Jewish. Among goyim, the hasan arrives with his friends led by the “Best man”, whereas the bride is escorted by the father or senior male relative who has to “give her away” (Jewish give make their own marriage arrangments, at least in theory, so there is no guardian to give her way).

    Post-wedding. Goyim traditionally leave town immediately after the wedding for a honey moon, so anything we do after our weddings (where the couple stays in town and goes to parties for a week) is Jewish.

    As to what is a “custom” one should remember that customs, by definition, are constantly changing. New Jewish customs are constantly being created based on how we adapt halacha to changing circumstance. For example, 200 years ago there were no microphones or loudspeaker, nor any possible recorded music – and there were no photographers at weddings- Clothing constantly changes since new fabrics become available and styles change (e.g. no one wore pants 500 years ago) – the halacha for clothes pertain to the tallis katan and the need for modesty – the rest it how the Yidden adapt.

    #1450646
    Basmelech1
    Participant

    I think it’s okay to walk into the hall together and then the kalla goes to the woman’s side and the chosson to the men’s side, but, I’ve seen the chosson run down through the arches, with the kalla, that the girls hold over the kalla when she comes in – and that is a big NO NO.

    #1450724
    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Here is the source clearly stating that there was/is custom for the Choson to escort the Kallah INTO the women’s side of the Mechitzah and sit himself down there (gasp!).

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46545&st=&pgnum=229

    #1450821
    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, clearly that’s not what’s happening at any chasunas today and is not what the OP is discussing.

    #1450827
    apushatayid
    Participant

    the generally accepted minhag is that “yichud” is nisuin, however, many meforshei Rambam understand that any act that demonstrates that they are husband and wife is nisuin. walking hand in hand into the seuda would certainly qualify as an act that demonstrates they are husband and wife.

    #1450822
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “the Choson walking into the women’s side of the mechitza”

    the minhag in spink and komarna used to be that the chosson EATS some portion of the seuda by the “cheder nashim”. (rav zinner brings this down in his sefer), I dont know if that minhag has changed with time.

    #1450826
    cherrybim
    Participant

    All of our wedding customs are original and copied by the goyim, including, as per the Talmud, the throwing of rice or grain at the Choson and Kallah.
    The only exception is when the Choson and Kallah come into the hall together. Our current custom is entirely fake and meant to be politically correct to appease the more modern among us and it distorts the emes way of starting out in a new marriage together.
    It had been the custom for Yidden going all the way back, that the Choson walks into the hall handcuffed to the Kallah to show everyone in attendance who is really boss. I feel there would be far fewer problems if we reverted back to this custom as the Kallah would understand early on her place in the marriage.

    #1450847
    GAON
    Participant

    Jo,

    “Gaon, clearly that’s not what’s happening at any chasunas today and is not what the OP is discussing.”

    Again, let’s go back a step. You claimed:

    “Again, the very Yeshivish, non-Chasidim, and most very frum couples don’t follow this gentile wedding custom of the groom and bride walking in side-by-side to the wedding party. This idea comes from places foreign to Yidden.”

    The above/below link certainly indicates that it is NOT a “gentile wedding custom”. You may not like it, but it has been done by very distinguished Chassidim and thus can not be rendered as “Goyish”!

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46545&st=&pgnum=229

    #1450848
    GAON
    Participant

    APY,
    “walking hand in hand into the seuda would certainly qualify as an act that demonstrates they are husband and wife”
    See the below link:
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46545&st=&pgnum=219
    Footnote Alef
    However, he does claim that after the Yichud it has no source.
    See end of footnote Vav/6:
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46545&st=&pgnum=230

    Well, I guess people apply the ballroom as the “Bais Nesuan”…

    #1450850
    Joseph
    Participant

    APY: Normally a husband and wife are not permitted to publicly hold each other’s hands. There’s an exception in the Seforim HaKedoshim, for the reason you mentioned, when the Choson and Kallah walk from the chuppa to the yichud room. They can’t choose to do so other times they so desire.

    #1450859
    Binyanadead
    Participant

    Joseph,
    The name Joseph is a name that came from the Goyim.
    Some goyishe minhagim that are performed at Jewish weddings are.
    1. The mitzva tantz. Its a custom in eastern europe for the male guests to dance with the bride at the end of the wedding. This is completely goyish.
    2. Mezinka dance with brooms and flower garlands. This is a Pagan custom

    #1450874
    Joseph
    Participant

    Binyan: The name you mentioned is that of one of the Shevatim and mentioned in Bereishus. The mitzvah tantz is mentioned in the Machzor Vitri (from about the times of Rashi.) The Mezinka Dance is absolutely a foreign/Ukrainian/gentile thing that certainly has no place at a yiddishe Chasuna.

    Gaon: I’m talking about apples and you’re comparing them to oranges. Walking her to her seat and sitting there isn’t walking her into the dance floor.

    #1450915
    Binyanadead
    Participant

    No, the name of the shevet is Yosef, not Joseph

    #1450917
    Binyanadead
    Participant

    Please let me know where in the machzor vitri this minhag is mentioned.

    #1450925
    Binyanadead
    Participant

    I checked the machzor vitri. Here is the source. Machzor Vitri chelek 2:496
    It states that the minhag was for the chosson and kallah to sit next to each other, and for the guests to dance around them. Nothing about male guests dancing with the kallah, that is a goyishe minhag.

    #1450945
    Joseph
    Participant

    No male guests dance with the kallah, c”v, at a Mitzvah Tantz. Only the father of the kallah and the Choson do. And even then it is supposed to be only with immediate relatives around. Just because some people call a dance a mitzvah tantz and do unacceptable things doesn’t make it a mitzvah tantz. Other relatives dance only holding the gartel. The mitzvah tantz is brought down in numerous Seforim HaKedoshim. (i.e. Bach – Even Haezer 21, Chelkas Mechokek, Beis Shmuel, etc.) If you have an issue with it take it up with the gedolei poskim who permitted or even mandated it.

    #1451238
    GAON
    Participant

    “tantz is brought down in numerous Seforim HaKedoshim. (i.e. Bach – Even Haezer 21, Chelkas Mechokek, Beis Shmuel, etc.) If you have an issue with it take it up with the gedolei poskim who permitted or even mandated it.”

    Joseph,
    There is no mention in any of the above sources about Mitzvah Tantz. The only thing is regarding a parent hugging their child in public. No one certainly ‘mandates’ it. I am aware there were some Admorim who did perform Mitzvah Tantz, however, they had certain Kavanos Al Pi Kabalah i.e. something with the Shem , which non of us simple people have anything whatsoever to do..

    #1451279
    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, it is also brought by the Nitei Gavriel. And regarding the Admorim you cited, they didn’t only do it for themselves; they also insisted their entire kehilos have it as well.

    #1451293
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Binyan:
    Actually, the name of the shevet was Shevet Joseph, not Shevet Yosef….after a lengthy review of CR postings here on YWN, the Ebeshter realized that it would be easier to just go with Joseph rather than suffering through 327 postings under 14 different aliases as to why Yosef had all sorts of negative implications (e.g. his initial treamtment of his brother when they arrived im mitzrayim)

    #1451349
    Joseph
    Participant

    We Yekkes transliterate the names of the Shevatim as Jehuda, Jissachar, Joseph. Using a Y instead of a J for the transliteration is mainly seen by non-Yekkes.

    #1451334
    icemelter
    Participant

    I was once by a chasunah, a BT who followed a certain “chassidus” and the girl was MO. When the chosson and kallah sat together to “keizad merakdim” one of the “chassidic” rabbi left the room stating, “it’s not our minhag” and it can potentially lead to “pritzus”. I just shook my head.

    #1453775

    How someone was grinded in his own grinding plant, because
    he didn’t listen to the Rav’s warnings about having a Mechitza.

    According to Tales for the Soul, the issue was mixed dancing.

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