Chumras

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  • #597457

    haifagirl
    Participant

    chumrah queen .

    Care to share? I’m always on the lookout for 1-upsmanship (or in this case 1-upspersonship) t

    It’s assur to use the internet.

    It’s assur to enter the public library.

    A parve salad will become fleishig by sitting on the same table with meat.

    It’s assur to wear a sheitel always. Certain hats are assur on Shabbos.

    #792593

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    You are defacto denigrating real Halacha and the topic as mentioned in Pirkei Avos of our obligation to “assu syag laTorah” to make a fence around the Halchos so we do not violate them. Chumra has a real place in Halacha…. do not start something which may cause loss of respect for real geniune Halacha based valid chumros. Thin ice… not worth it. Certainly not when the focus of these parshios of Miriam and of the meragliim is being careful with speech

    #792594

    haifagirl
    Participant

    A parve salad will become fleishig by sitting on the same table with meat.

    I should have specified that’s even if nobody touches the salad while the meat is on the table.

    #792595

    mamashtakah
    Member

    It’s assur to go swimming during the 3 weeks.

    #792596

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    RABBAIM:

    You are defacto denigrating real Halacha and the topic as mentioned in Pirkei Avos of our obligation to “assu syag laTorah” to make a fence around the Halchos so we do not violate them.

    Chumra Creep causes loss of respect for real geniune Halacha based valid chumros. Only by pointing out what is a valid chumra and what is not can we keep what Chazal require from us.

    #792597

    RSRH
    Member

    RABBAIM: Its “chumros” like this that cause embarrassment and denigration to the halacha. No one disputes that “asu s’yag l’TOrah” has a valid place in the halachic system; and no one disputes that each individual, using their own good judgement (hopefully they have some of that) can and should make those fences that they, knowing themselves, feel are needed in order for them to keep within the bounds of halacha. The problem is when chumors – especially personal chumros – cease to be mere chumros, and instead become issurim gamurim. This trends very close to baal tosef. Unfortunately, many people don’t know enough and cant distinguish between a d’oraysa and d’rabbanan, takana, gezeira, minhag yisroel, chura, and just plain kannaus. They lump them all together, and just to be on the safe side, make them all yeharog v’al yaavor. This is not Torah. This is individuals remaking the Torah in their own image instead of remaking themselves in the image of the Torah.

    #792598

    this thread was started as facetiousism

    #792599

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Mr 80:

    I’m not sure. Chumra Creep is a real issue, and perhaps this was a humorous way of trying to get the point out.

    I’ll add to the list:

    One must wear a black hat in the street

    Girls must walk in pairs ONLY

    No family pictures in your home (Tznius!)

    (I’m not talking about pictures where the couple is touching, which should not be done in public anyway).

    Shidduchim must only be made by a registered Shaddchan from the Yated Shidduch Forum.

    Not cheating on taxes or to get benefits

    (strike the last one, that might be real).

    #792600

    I’m not sure. Chumra Creep is a real issue, and perhaps this was a humorous way of trying to get the point out.

    exactly

    #792601

    Pac-Man
    Member

    In the real world an issue far far worse and far far more prevalent than chumra creep, is kula creep. It is a lot more fun and a lot easier to take unrealistic leniencies (kulas) that seem to make your life easier than to take upon unrealistic stringencies.

    #792602

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Most of the so-called chumra creep listed above don’t exist in real life other than as exaggerations by those who don’t like the idea of chumros altogether. Let’s take some examples:

    “Shidduchim must only be made by a registered Shaddchan from the Yated Shidduch Forum.”

    “Girls must walk in pairs ONLY”

    I’ve never heard of anyone anywhere anyhow imposing such conditions. It seems purely mockery. The second one above may exist in some limited circumstance for all I know (perhaps when a girls camp goes hiking so no girl should get lost) but to imply anyone imposes it as a hard rule at all times and demands all women follow it, is a joke.

    #792603

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joe: Depends which side of the fence you are on, and where the peer pressure is. But you are correct, and you should start a similar thread (which I will add to as well Bli Neder).

    Another Chumra!

    Writing H-shem (although it could be argued it has basis in a Gemorah Nedarim, I’ve never seen that as the argument for it)

    #792604

    the use by some of: “H-shem”

    has been explained before. no one is claiming it to be a chumrah, and certainly not a Halachah

    it is merely a personal heirgush.

    and should certainly not be denigrated.

    #792605

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joe: It was taught in one of my local schools. I was shocked as well.

    As far as the first point the “Yated Shidduch forum” was a plug (I try to read it every week and enjoy the Q&A), but the point of needing an “official shaddchan” is true.

    #792606

    haifagirl
    Participant

    Unfortunately, the chumras I mentioned are things my friend actually believes. When I mentioned I always see plenty of chareidim in the library, she said, “Well, they aren’t really chareidim.”

    And I’ve eaten many Shabbos meals at her house. She always insists the salads be removed from the table before the meat is brought out.

    #792607

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    the use by some of: “H-shem”

    has been explained before. no one is claiming it to be a chumrah, and certainly not a Halachah

    it is merely a personal heirgush.

    and should certainly not be denigrated.

    personal heirgush? heir gush? Herr Gush?

    not sure what you mean by that.

    Personally I think it has basis from a geomorah (as I said), but have never seen anyone else say so.

    #792608

    hergush: feeling

    #792609

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Personal feeling?

    That is where we get into this problem in the first place!!

    Anyway, my shitta is to try not to argue with a mod, so its all yours.

    #792610

    did she say the salads should be removed because they will otherwise become fleishig? did you interpret her as meaning this?

    many people are makpid, and rightly so, if their salad usually becomes leftovers for later meals, to remove it before the meat or milk comes out to ensure that it will remain parave, and not accidentally become M or F.

    #792611

    going into a public library nowadays, is certainlty not something to be done by someone who is trying to become a Tzadik, and increase his closeness to Hashem. i would only enter a public library under a limited set of circumstances.

    #792612

    i would like to meet your friend

    #792613

    haifagirl
    Participant

    Yes, I asked her. She said if the salads remain on the table they become fleishig. I asked my LOR. He said they’ll become fleishig if you take from them with a dirty spoon, but not from simply being on the table.

    #792614

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    facetiousism

    edit that. now.

    #792615

    shmoolik 1
    Participant

    where can I find the on the net the Chumra of the Month

    for non chasidik surfers

    or do I rely on the WWW. Chumra of the Chasisik World

    #792616

    Health
    Participant

    “”assu syag laTorah” to make a fence around the Halchos so we do not violate them. Chumra has a real place in Halacha….”

    While this is true, I find that a lot of people have made the Ikkur Toful and the Toful Ikkur. In other words, you want to have a chumra fine, but don’t push it on everyone else. Also, don’t keep your chumra better than you keep the real Torah. Eg. -Someone speaks a lot of LH, but they aren’t even aware what they do because when they do introspection they don’t even begin to see their own bad actions because they say I don’t do anything wrong -look at all these chumras I have. I’m much better than so and so, they don’t keep any of these. Meantime the other guy doesn’t hardly ever speak LH and they do it all the time.

    #792618

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its one thing to say “I WONT ENTER A LIBRARY” and quite another to declare its ASSUR for all

    #792619

    her friend did not say it is assur for all.

    this is what her friend said: When I mentioned I always see plenty of chareidim in the library, she said, “Well, they aren’t really chareidim. see haifagirls 3rd post or so.

    you of course are welcome to enter a library.

    #792620

    gavra

    probably you are not understanding me

    people sometimes conduct themselves according to a Toradik feeling.

    i wont cross over someones lawn to get to my car (for those who live in ny, i can explain “lawn” in a later post if you wish) if a sidewalk is available. i always (by always i mean usually) enter a building with my R leg first. etc.

    i dont “push this down anyones throat” (a commonly misused and overused phrase here) its just a personal feeling

    have you heard those that use H-shem say it is a Halachah? i doubt it. they just “feel” it is more respectable.

    #792621

    you are right bomb

    however i like to misuse and make up words

    not a Halachah

    not even a Chumra

    #792622

    mik5
    Participant

    HASHEM just means “THE NAME.”

    In fact, there is no obligation to write “G-d” instead of “God,” and it IS permissible to erase His name if written in a language other than the Holy Tongu/ Hebrew.

    #792623

    YeshivaRodefKesef
    Participant

    There are enough “Chumras”, for example:

    Eishes Ish, niddah on yom kippur,

    that we dont need to add to them.

    #792624

    Pac-Man
    Member

    YRK: Eishes ish is also a “chumra”?? What kind?

    #792626

    mik

    you are arguing to the wall

    yes we know what Hashem means.

    some feel more comfortable writing H-shem than Hashem (perhaps because we say “Hashem” so frequently it, to some, has taken on a bit of Kedushah itself, there are other reasons).

    does that bother you? do you feel a need to speak out and chastise someone who does this? has anyone berated you for not doing this? do you feel anger against those who do something that you do not?

    #792627

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    I think it may be above your vocabularial level 😀

    (anyone…? anyone…!?)

    #792628

    YeshivaRodefKesef
    Participant

    I think all of us know that eishes ish is not a “chumra”.

    Some of us, though, will get my point.

    #792629

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I’m not so fluent in Hebrew. Does anyone know the meaning in Yotzros second day of Shavuos, Lo Sinaf:

    ??? ???? ??????? ????

    ??? ????? ????? ??????

    #792630

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Gavra – correct, but the tone should be one of Yiras Shanmayim and kavod not one that smells a bit of sarcasm

    re: salads If you carefully observe people when they take salads using a communal spoon or salad fork, unfortunately some are not careful and touch the plate into which they are dishing the salad. If they already have chicken, meat, cholent on the plate (particularly if they are taking a second helping) then the spoon has come in contact with real fleishiks. If it goes back into the salad bowl you have a real shayloh about the status of the salad and need a psak and maybe rely on a kula to permit it as parve. Many people therefore remove it before bringing meat to the table so that they can reuse it with a milchik Shalosh seudos or Melave Malka.

    The problem exists also when squeezing ketchup or mustard form a container. People, especially children accidentally touch the fleish on the plate.

    #792631

    Health
    Participant

    “The problem exists also when squeezing ketchup or mustard form a container. People, especially children accidentally touch the fleish on the plate.”

    I know, my mother is always screaming at my kid about this.

    But what kind of possible problem could there be if the meat is cold?

    #792632

    do you want to squeeze some ketchup with some cold roast beef gravy at the tip onto your cheese sandwich?

    #792633

    Health
    Participant

    Mod -80 – How about wiping/washing it off first?

    #792634

    thats a good idea but

    were not talkng absorptions here

    were talking mamshis

    are you sure none got into the nozzle of the bottle?

    i dont know if you can rely on bitul, l chatchila

    i dont know the Halacha

    i wouldnt use it though.

    #792635

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Health- 1- And if it is hot?

    2- What is the best way to educate our kids.. … take the temp of the meat…… or have 2 separate ones and explain to them that out of a sense of Yiras Shamayim we would not to chas vshalom mix… or embarrass a guest (Dioraysa)who touches it to the hot-warm-cold meat.

    What about the possibility of the suction of the squeeze bottles sucking in the fleishik fluid. Aren’t these at least legitimate concerns??? ever see people put ketch on pizza??? Even adults frequently touch it…. kids for sure. NOt even talking about the greasy fingers on the outside.

    Kashrus is a chok.. we need to protect it.

    #792636

    Health
    Participant

    Mod -80 -Squeeze out a bit.

    #792637

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Joe: It’s much more appealing to use kulos for yourself, but some people take real pleasure in finding chumros for other people. (HEM, exhibit A) Rav Yisroel Salanter once said “yenem’s gashmiyus is meiner ruchniyus” Some people take it the other way around and seem to get real pleasure from harassing others about meaningless frumkeitten.

    #792638

    Health
    Participant

    1. I was talking where it isn’t.

    2. “What about the possibility of the suction of the squeeze bottles sucking in the fleishik fluid.”

    To suck in you would have to keep it on the meat after you squeezed -not done -noone keeps it there that long.

    “embarrass a guest (Dioraysa)who touches it to the hot-warm-cold meat.”

    Why embarrass? That bottle just became Fleishik.

    “or have 2 separate ones and explain to them that out of a sense of Yiras Shamayim we would not to chas vshalom mix”

    An unnecessary Chumra, unless you eat your meat like YOU eat your pizza. Most people don’t eat like this, even kids, and one bottle is just fine. You pour from away the hot food a few inches and if ch’vs something touches -then it becomes either Fleishiks or Milchiks!

    #792639

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    “Well, they aren’t really chareidim.”

    isnt that Lashon Hara

    #792640

    no its not

    #792641

    charliehall
    Participant

    ” i would only enter a public library under a limited set of circumstances.”

    Both my parents were directors of public libraries. One of the things my father was most proud of was getting the funding to get libraries to open on Sunday and not just weekdays and Saturdays.

    #792642

    bpt
    Participant

    They lump them all together, and just to be on the safe side, make them all yeharog v’al yaavor”

    This is very true, and what got Odom and Chava into hot water. If you enforce a chumrah like its law, when the person finds out that its negotiable, often times they will retreat to a point beyond where your real deadline is.

    Still, there are some practical “chumras” that steer you clear of halacha problems. Here’s one:

    We were told, “Never drink from the (64 oz) bottle in the fridge. use a cup”

    But if the rule is not in place, and my wife drinks from it in the frozen zone (v’hamaven, yovin), that means I cannot drink from it.

    Same thing goes for using placemats / chargers. Not a halacha, but it keeps you on the right side of the law, and avoids drawing attention when it could easily be avoided.

    So, some things are put in place to protect you (and your OJ)

    #792643

    msseeker
    Member

    Don’t confuse chumras with OCD.

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