December 18, 2008 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #629209
BTW, just a quick aside to the bove posting on “bashing” chareidim and their gedolim.
Last time I looked, Rav menashe Klein shelitsa,the person most responsible for the eiruv, is a chareidi.
Last time I looked, Rav Ovadia Josef shelita, who DID call Rav Sherman’s psak a lack of ahavas yisroel, is a chareidi.
Last time I looked, all the Lubavitcher shelichim and certainly their Rabbonim are chareidim.
Last time I looked, Rav Grossman shelita is also a chareidi.
And Rav Moshe Feinstein zz’l ,whose kullos were far-reaching in many areas, was a chareidi too.
So, notpashut, please don’t say that I, or others, bash chareidim. We don’t.
All we do is use our own minds and look at the facts critically. And yes, a times, it makes us doubt some gedolim’s words. If this is called “bashing’ chareidim, so be it. I sure am not going to give up my sechel and shikul hadaas for anyone.December 18, 2008 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #629210
notpashut- “shetikah ke-hodoah domo”. That strengthens MY case!December 18, 2008 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #629211anahashemParticipant
Experience shows (at least my experience) that when the chumra side of the scale outweighs the ahavas hashem/hatora side thats were we go wrongDecember 18, 2008 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #629212gavra_at_workParticipant
I apologize. Thank you for the clarification (not getting involved in the other discussion, where it seems that you both actually agree).
BTW (to all), If R’ Miller said “anyone who has a TV gets no Olam Haba whatsoever”, I would like to see it quoted somewhere. Until then I will assume it is hearsay (either not said or out of context). Perhaps he said “someone loses some of their O”H by owning a TV?”
(I do not own a TV)
Thanks.December 18, 2008 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #629213gavra_at_workParticipant
To add, owning a TV, even if not used, could be viewed in context of the Gemorah BB 57b, regarding Eika Derech Achrina.December 18, 2008 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #629214
“I am not saying & never said that everyone has to listen to chareidi Gedolim. I happen to believe that anyone who doesn’t is mistaken, but that is just my opinion – everyone else can do whatever they want”
If this was honestly the way most of the black hat chareidim thought you would be right, however you know as well as i do that as a general rule they dont think like this.
You know as well as I do that they dont consider the rabbonim who lead both the M.O. Y.U. or mizrachi communitys to be gedolim (most of them feel the same way about chabad leaders also!) and alot of them routinley call the leaders of these movements apikorsim and minim among other things.December 18, 2008 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #629215
“notpashut- “shetikah ke-hodoah domo”. That strengthens MY case!”
Not at all – it just means that I don’t sit at my computer waiting for you posts.
I said 10 million times during the da’as torah debate with yourself & cantoresq that I agree one thousand percent that a gadol can make a mistake.
My point then & now is that YOU stating that R’ Elyashiv is making a mistake is like you stating that NASA makes their rockets all wrong.
You are so far from their level that all you accomplish by making such statements is making a total fool of yourself & your position.
This is EXACTLY my point about saying people much bigger than yourself are wrong.
So that there should be no misunderstandings at all I will be somewhat explicit.
Rabbi Dr. M. Tendler is a massive Talmid Chochom. Therefore NO NORMAL CHAREIDI PERSON would speak out against him ON THEIR OWN VOLITION being that it’s pretty dumb to start up with someone who is a much bigger person than yourself.
However, being that THE GEDOLIM who ARE on his level are of the opinion that he is a no-goodnik, chareidim who follow their Rabbonim will speak out against him. (I WILL NOT be drawn into further discussion of this topic – I am only using it now to be crystal clear).
YOU & others posters like you, on the other hand speak against R’ Elyashiv with no compunction whatsoever based on YOUR OWN OPINION – AND THEN when it is pointed out to you, you scranble to find R’ Ovadia, R’ Menashe Klein, Lubavitcher shlichim & R’ Grossman & if they wouldn’t exist you would stick to your guns anyway. So what they say in terms of our discussion is thoroughly irrelevant.
THAT is the epitome of hubris & puts you into the category of a mevaze talmid chochom. (The Gadol Hador, no less!!)
If you had said in the first place that MY GEDOLIM say that R’ Elyashiv is wrong, & therefore… then, even though I would vehemently disagree – we would be able to have a mature debate.
However once you feel that YOU are the “bar plugta” of R’ Elyashiv then we really have nothing further to discuss.
BTW, why is it that everyone knows R’ Moshe for his far-reaching “kullos”, but convienently forgets that he had many, many far-reaching “chumros”. They are also printed in Igros Moshe – believe it or not!December 18, 2008 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #629216
I refer you to my reply a moment ago.December 18, 2008 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #629217
Apology accepted B’lev sholeim.December 18, 2008 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #629218
With all do respect you are missing the point,
If there are rabbonim on both sides of an argument I or anyone else have the right to demand that one side either prove there position logicly or show me a mekor that can only mean what they are saying is true.
If they cannot do this then you (or they) have no right to call me an apikoros (or any other name for that matter!) for not trusting there judgement or not listening to them. You can listen and beleive what they say yourself obviosly, however you cannot blame others for questioning there judgement or not beleiving them when they dont bring clear proofs to there positions (either via logic or a mekor).
However in most cases chareidim will demand that you listen, beleive and not argue with there rabbonim even when they fail to explain there logic or show you a mekor that can only mean what they say, no matter how radical or how little logical sense it makes, because they have “daas torah” or because “we must listen to our gedolim”.
They will also generaly have no problem belittling someone on the basis of what a rov of theres said is either an apikoros, min or tipish ect. without honestly hearing both sides of the issue and waying the arguments before comming to a decision.
If you wish to say you cannot make any (logical) decisions on your own then how and why on earth did you decide to follow the rabbonim you do follow?December 18, 2008 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #629219
well, notpashut, I don’t know why you have to stoop to this rather low level in our discussions. It is almost as if you have no argument to present and so all you do is make ‘ad hominem” attacks- calling your interlocutor all names under the sun. ooo646 is sadly right in his appraisal of many chareidim who will brook no discussion of any of “their’ gedolim’s words. But I digress. Let me deal with the crux of your counter-argument.
Yes, I will say ,quite explicitly, that – IN MILEI DE’ALMA – matters of day-to day conduct ,Rav Elyashiv shelita can be wrong and I- or any other human being – can be right.You can rhapsodize all you want about gedolim’s gadlus and their tsidkus and affirm that this makes them all-knowing. I do not accept that.The biggest gedolim have made mistakes and this still happens every day. “maaseh bechol yom”. Of course, I accept their exalted status- and it is indeed exalted- but this does not make them smarter or more clairvoyant. Otherwise, every business deal that they recommend will be succesful, every sick person that they advise will recover and every moissad or cause that they espouse will prosper. But this is not true. Plenty of business deals that they recommend fail ( I have first hand knowledge of this), many “choilim’ r’l die and many yeshivas and moisdos are bankrupt.
If you accept this -and I think you probaby do NOT accept this view because of your understanding of ‘daas torah”- then it is irrelevant who disputes the godol’s view. If he is wrong ,then it dones not matter that it is the little child who shouted that the emperor has no clothes. You did not need a smart man to see this.As a matter of fact ,the smart man was duped in denying this.
Similarly, if any human being-regardless of his age, status, religious standing- thinks that a godol is wrong in MILEI DE’ALMA – he has the full right to follow his conscience. What happens afterward will either prove or disprove his view and yes, the layman does take responsibility for his view.
I am not even going to argue why YOUR gedolim are BETTER than mine. I would say that the Lubavithcer rebbe was a pretty big godol, wouldn’t you say? Yet, none of your machane approve of him or his derech. And don’t bring me the case of Rav Tendler, How about quoting Rav Shlomo Goren zz’L? Why is he a lesser godol than the gedolim you follow? Give me ONE good reason why he should not be followed also.
My point is that the tsidkus status of a person does not make him automatically all-knowing.He is prone to make mistakes too. And ,ironically, you will only grant this omniscient status to gedolim that you approve of while totally rejecting others that you do not approve of.This a classical case of hypocrisy.
After all this is said, I absolutely deny that I bash chareidim, At best, I disagree with some of the views and apporaches of SOME of the chareidi gedolim.
As to your question on R’Moshe- you just made the case for the discussion earlier. R’Moshe’s kullos are talked about BECAUSE you need true gadlus to find and “pasken” hetteirim. You do not need gadlus to be machmir. Hence, R’Moshe’s kullos are what mark his as one of the great Poskim of the past generations.December 18, 2008 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #629220
BTW,notpashut- in view of the most recent developments, would you consider the whole agudath Yisroel as bering “mevazeh talmidei chachomim’ because they happne to diagree waith Rav Elyashiv opinion on the Knesset list? ( i assume that Rav Elyashiv will back degel hatorah)December 18, 2008 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #629221
We have nothing further to discuss.
On the other hand, I would like to ask your mechila for one particular thing.
Although I stand by every single word I wrote & simply refuse to continue this discussion because we obviously will get nowhere, I do feel bad for having taken out my frustration on YOU in particular.
Pease allow me to explain.
Anyone following the various threads in the CR over the past 4 or 5 days may have noticed my fuse getting shorter & shorter. This was due to the increasingly nasty, vicious & thoroughly out-of-line comments posted by what I term “chareidi bashers”. Of course all this was done under the guise of Ahavas Yisroel. Of Course.
And then you came along on this thread innocently joining a tense, yet friendly discussion.
And I “blindsided” you. A couple of months worth of frustration came tumbling out on you. (Trust me – I could sit here fighting for another week! And I would if I thought it would help). I gave you the “treatment” which really would have been better directed toward other members of the “Chareidi Bashers Club” who seem to have difficulty formulating a mild sentence toward a black hatter, a problem you don’t really suffer from. You were basically just in the wrong thread at the wrong time.
So although I feel that your OPINIONS are WAY off base & stand behind all my words, nevertheless, truth be told, you actually seem to be a pretty nice guy. And I truly do feel bad seeing from your comments that I really seem to have hurt your feelings.
I therefore apologize once again for the TONE of my comments which would have been better directed elsewhere.
I always thought 000646 was a WOMAN.
I hope you will be moichel me for that.December 18, 2008 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #629222oomisParticipant
Apropos of what ROB posted, I am reminded of a shailah that I myself had. Though the shailah was something else it was on par with a kashrus question. I was prepared to “throw out the entire pot of soup,” metaphorically speaking, but decided before doing so, to ask a shailah anyway, though I felt sure it would be assur, not muttar. My Rov who was a respected chaver of R’ Moshe Zt”L, paskened muttar, and I was beyond shocked. left to my own devices I would have been machmir had I not asked the shailah. When I thanked the Rov and told him I fully expected him to say “treif,” he told me that ANYONE can pasken that something is assur. It takes a real lamdan to know when it is permissible and find the kullah (that exists for a reason!).December 19, 2008 1:05 am at 1:05 am #629223
notpashut- not only is your apology accepted, I did not think you needed to apologize and , in truth, I was not offended. I mentioned it earlier- or in another posting- that this past summer I had some very nasty exchanges with some other posters. It bothered me and I decided to remain courteous in my exchanges and try not to make any ‘ad hominem’ attacks (for the uninitiated, it isd latin for personal).one can argue and one can be sharp in replies but it is not benefical to become personal. so, no apologies needed but they are accepted.
The irony of all this is , that , if you would ever meet me, you would see that I am as ‘black-hatted’ as you (maybe more) and my sons are absolutely black-hatted.
I do believe that gedolim of all kind are not always right and I tend to adhere to shittas that are not mainstream chareidi.
In my own private life, however, I am close to rebbes and respect all rabbonim.
So, although you and I have different iews,I bet we can share a shot of slivovitz afer davening.December 19, 2008 2:26 am at 2:26 am #629224
Wow! thats the second time that happend here… at least it only happens here!! just curios what made you think that and what gave away that i am a guy?December 19, 2008 4:16 am at 4:16 am #629225asdfghjklParticipant
000646: i always though you were a women 2!!!December 19, 2008 4:25 am at 4:25 am #629226
Why? wow this is WIERD!December 19, 2008 7:56 am at 7:56 am #629228
I’m a real litvak, but as long as the slivovitz is AFTER davening it should be fine.
Thanx for accepting the apology.
Nothing gave it away. It’s Just that RoB called you “he”. I’m still in shock. 🙂
Good Shabbos everyone!
Get the slivovitz ready!!December 19, 2008 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #629229
notpashut, thank you for the compliment! You are wrong though – I do have an agenda (I’ve been pretty clear about that) and its to try to get others to understand that just because someone is to the left or right of you, their halachic psak is still valid (assuming its within the box of halacha).
Now, I have another question for you. You said “I am not saying & never said that everyone has to listen to chareidi Gedolim. I happen to believe that anyone who doesn’t is mistaken, but that is just my opinion – everyone else can do whatever they want.”
Yesterday, I went out with my department for a holiday lunch. There are two other Jewish people in my department. One doesnt really keep anything (he lights Chanukah candles, thats about it – doesnt even take off for Yom Kippur). The other is moderately practicing. He keeps a kosher home, but outside the home he just doesnt eat shellfish, ham, meat and milk together etc. He travels on shabbos, but does celebrate shabbos in some manner. He takes off for holidays, but last year Shavuos time he had to work (it was pretty crazy here around then). Anyway, I was talking to the second guy who asked why I didnt bring any food so I said I ate beforehand. He told me he was proud of me for keeping fully kosher, and that he tries the best he can.
I look at him and think “You are a wonderful person, I realize you are trying, but you are missing the proverbial halachic boat.”
Do you look at me (and other modern orthodox people) the same way? Please give me an honest answer.December 19, 2008 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #629230
Now to add about the R’ Miller comment.
I really think this has to be an opinion rather than fact because otherwise it brings up a lot of problems.
When he says anyone who has a TV does he mean that it is the act of owning the TV thats the issue? So If my neighbor lends me one, watching is not the problem? Is renting one a problem? Is it the possesion on my property?
What if I buy a nice TV to use like a digital picture frame? This way it can hang up and show large sizes of nice, family pictures or other photographs. No TV is being watched, just pictures being displayed?
What qualifies as a TV? Does a computer, which can play streaming TV shows, videos etc count? What about a video mp3 player that can play videos? You can download TV shows to them. Does owning one of those qualify? What if the only thing you download is kosher Jewish music?
What about portable DVD players? Are those considered TV? You can play TV shows, movies etc on them.
What if you need to keep up with the news or stocks for work? Can you not watch the stock ticker? The internet is allowed for work, so why not a television?
The questions on his statement could fill up a whole volume of a sefer! These are just the few that popped into my head at this moment. Is there any sort of speech he made that has the quotation in context?December 19, 2008 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #629231oomisParticipant
“Do you look at me (and other modern orthodox people) the same way? Please give me an honest answer.”
But that is the point, exactly! NOBODy should be doing that? Only Hashem should be looking at us and judging. And there is a huge world of difference between thinking as you do about a co-worker who clearly does not keep minimal kosher standards outside of the home (I am not judging him, I know many people like him), and comparing some of the posters here who are more Yeshivish, with those posters who are not quite yeshivish, but who nonetheless follow the halacha properly as MOJ. If I keep Shabbos k’hilchasa, and they do the same – there is no difference between our shmiras Shabbos. If I accept the OU Hashgocha, but they ONLY accept the hashgocha of their particular Rabbi, that does NOT make either of us better than the other. I don’t think your friend missed the proverbial boat. I think he is doing the best he feels he can within the confines of his religious experience. It is better than doing nothing at all, and who knows – his acquaintance with you and admiration of your principles, may inspire him. In any case, hashem gives credit for all that we do, even when we fall short.
It’s how I feel about the idea that an eiruv should be erected in every community. There may be Jews who are mechallelei Shabbos CH”V, but with an eiruv, at least they are mechallelei Shabbos in one LESS area.December 19, 2008 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #629232
well, notpashut, I have just uncorked a bottle of fine eight-year old slivovitz and I hope we can share this at the (faux) chanukka party of YWN!ell, the party may be “faux’, but the slivovitz is real! And, for good measure, for the scotch lovers out there, I have a wonderful bottle of 15-year old Glenfiddich single malt ! You are welcome to share it with all of us in the upcoming chanukkha party!
I bet we can unite and be in real ‘achdus’ when we drink!
Oh, what a wonderful gift from G-d- good alcohol! ( in moderation, of course).December 19, 2008 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #629233
Oomis, I agree with your post. My point about him missing the halachic boat was that no, he is not keeping kosher according to halacha. Not that he is a bad person for it.
I personally think Hashem is giving him schar for that but I don’t make that judgement. I leave that up to Hashem.
I was just wondering if notpashut put MO in that category of “You are trying, but outside the bounds of halacha.”December 19, 2008 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #629234
Rav Miller ZTV’L stated that television falls into the category of Seforim Hachitzonim. The Mishna in Sanhedrin discusses Seforim Hachitzonim (which is apikorsus) and states that one who utilizes it has NO chelek (not a ”reduced chelek”) in Olam Haboh.
One can look up the Mishna for the full ramifications.December 19, 2008 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #629235
Thank you Joseph. I appreciate the source so I can at least attempt to understand where he is coming from.
I will try to learn about that this shabbos with my husband. I dont know if he will want to interupt Brachot though.December 19, 2008 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #629236
And as an aside, like television, Seforim Hachitzonim have some non-apikorsus uses (and yet one still loses their chelek.)December 19, 2008 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #629237
As you try to understand it, remember that Hagoen Rav Miller ZTV’L is infinitely wisers than any of us.December 19, 2008 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #629238
Joseph, at least his statement would make sense then. What is Seofirm Hachitzonim? I’ve never heard of it before.December 19, 2008 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #629239dovid_yehudaParticipant
The “non-judgmentalism” that is commonly expressed is a not a new value, although one that seems to have gained prominence within the last two decades. It is a idea that is not Torah based, but comes from a secular ideological trend that celebrates pluralism, tolerance and moral relativity. These ideas are actually pagan concepts, putting everyone’s gods on a equal footing.
To the extent that a frum Jew does not make judgments about his surroundings and put some distance between themselves and those things or people who represent evil – then they are endangering their souls.
It is very easy for people to understand this idea when the danger posed is to our bodies, e.g. no one would remain passive while witnessing someone pour a toxic liquid into a glass and start to drink it.
But, when the item is “merely” trief, well, I don’t want to judge …
Of course if this idea of non-judgmentalism continues to increase in popularity, then we will need a new blessing.December 19, 2008 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #629240feivelParticipant
“Is there any sort of speech he made that has the quotation in context?”
he has said it more than once
the context that i recall:
during his famous question and answer period,
someone asked him if it was mutar to have a television in his house.
he responded (his words were very close to this if not exact):”anyone who has a television in their house has no chalek in Olam Ha Boh.” this was said in his booming voice.December 19, 2008 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #629241tzippiMember
I wonder how chazal would have classified other media besides sefarim, had they been able to envision them. Would radio be a “media chitzoni”? Internet? et al.December 19, 2008 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #629242feivelParticipant
“I wonder how chazal would have classified other media besides sefarim, had they been able to envision them. Would radio be a “media chitzoni”? Internet? et al.”
you dont have to wonder
find out what the Gedolim and Poskim say.December 19, 2008 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #629243
were does rav miller z’l say that he considers T.V. seforim chitzonimDecember 20, 2008 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #629244
From the way your posts are presented it sounds to me as though based on the chinuch you have recieved in your life you try to be the best jew you can be.
You don’t assume that anyone “frummer” than you is a fanatic – on the contrary – if they bring up a good point, you are GLAD TO HEAR IT AND ACCEPT IT.
Most of the “fights” that we have are based on what I percieve to be as your basic lack of understanding of the “yeshivishe hashkafa”, NOT your animosity toward it.
I would term you (the ultimate compliment) a “BEN (or bas) ALIYA” – which is what Hashem wants from all of us.
I hope that answers your question.
Unfortunately it seems (an understatement) that other posters are the exact opposite of everything I just wrote about you & months of reading their garbage (there is no nicer way to phrase it) is what caused me to finally “blow my stack”.
I will send another post in a moment which I think really needs to be read – TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY – & absorbed by all those who want to do Ratzon Hashem.
It is what separates a ben- torah from all other people.
Although I have posted it before I think it needs to be posted again.December 20, 2008 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #629245
Here it is,
Kovetz Igros Chazon Ish, Chelek Gimmel, letter 92
????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ????, ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???, ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???, ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ??????, ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????, ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??????.
?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????, ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????, ????? ?????? ?????, ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ?????December 20, 2008 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #629246
000646, Feivel mentioned it above. And its on tape.December 21, 2008 12:26 am at 12:26 am #629247tzippiMember
Re Feivel: the reason I asked is because the concept of sefarim chitzonim was specifically brought up in the context of the times of the gemara. Of course I want to know through the lens of contemporary gedolim; it’s the only way I will know, not being adept with a ouija board. But wouldn’t it be interesting for a contemporary gadol to extrapolate and clearly tell us about other media. Because frankly, all this “well, it’s kosher if you have the right filters” business is only so much sophistry. We have decent filters. B”H. I’ve seen computers with no filters, no passwords, etc. (And I am so grateful I can’t get that great time waster You Tube, because even if I would only watch the pareve forwards I would get less than nothing done around the house.) But the bitul zeman, and the stuff that gets through the cracks, and the ads that appear even on kosher sites…Not to mention the inanity right here. I wonder, that’s all.December 21, 2008 1:29 am at 1:29 am #629248
i know he said you dont have a chelek in olam haba if you have a t.v.
Just were did he say it goes into seforim hachitzonim?
as according to the way alot of rishonim and achronim explain seforim hchitzonim (that either it means reading philosophy books of apikorsim WITH THE INTENTION TO LIVE ACCORDING TO THEM (meiri sanhedrin kuf amud beis)
or that it means seforim that put words of tanach next to apikorsis
(rif & rosh same place)
I dont really see how a T.V. would fall into that categoryDecember 21, 2008 2:14 am at 2:14 am #629249
000646, Sorry, I misread your question. Rav Miller says on tape that television results in the loss of Olam Haboh. The reason being television is equivalent to Seforim Chitzonim I heard elsewhere bsheim Rav Miller.December 21, 2008 2:24 am at 2:24 am #629250modernduckMember
Is internet any better then T.V.?December 21, 2008 2:26 am at 2:26 am #629251brooklyn19Participant
modern – not really. i mean i guess you could have a filter. but that’s like asking “what’s more unkosher? a pig or a horse?”December 21, 2008 2:34 am at 2:34 am #629252modernduckMember
I learn in kollel so i guess i’m not so modern
Anyway, is internet any better then T.V.?December 21, 2008 2:42 am at 2:42 am #629253
Thanks for clarifying!December 21, 2008 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #629256
Looking back at your question & my answer it seems I may not have been clear in my response.
Your specific question was – do I believe (honestly) that MO misses the boat.
The answer is as follows.
The MO “shittah” was created by an Adam Gadol, R’ Soloveitchik Ztz”l.
However, ALL the other Gedolim of his generation (R’ Moshe, R’ Henkin, R’ Aharon Kotler, The Satmar Rebbe, The Kloisenberger Rebbe, R’ Reuvain Grozovsky, R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky, R’ Ruderman etc. etc. etc.) felt that this hashkafa is incorrect. Some felt that it is “treif mammash” while others were less combative about it, but NONE of them agreed with it.
Being that the consensus of the Gedolim was & is against this “shittah”, it should not be followed.
Same story in EY with R’ Kook Ztz”l.
A quick story to prove I’m not a “fanatic”.
At the height of the whole battle between R’ Kook & the other Gedolim in EY, the Gerrer Rebbe was dispatched to EY by the Gedolim in Europe to try & make peace between the two camps.
After meeting with R’ Kook for many hours, the Gerrer Rebbe stated, “We know that R’ Meir was the greatest of the Tannaim, yet we usually find that when there is a machlokes between R’ Meir & a different Tanna we pasken like the other Tanna”.
“The reason for this is, because R’ Meir’s greatness was so far above the other Tannaim that oftentimes they simply could not understand what he was talking about. Therefore, even though he was so great, the Chachamim understood that we have to pasken halachos based on the understanding & consensus of all the Chachamim – not just R’ Meir”.
“So it is with R’ Kook, After meeting with him & speaking with him, there is no doubt in my mind that he is one of the Gedolai HaDor, however I also must say that I have no idea what he’s talking about. And therefore we must follow the consensus of all the Gedolim who reject his position”.
The “shittah” of “Modern Orthodoxy” has been rejected by the Gedolim & therefore as far as a chareidi jew is concerned, it is WRONG.
Does that mean that every MO person is bad. Of course not.
Some people started off irreligious & worked their way up to MO. That’s fantastic.
Some people were never exposed to any other type of hashkafa.
Some people were chareidi & decided to instead become MO.
Therefore, as you like to say, every person has to be looked at as an individual to see where he stands in HIS OR HER OWN yiddishkeit.
Is he moving up or down the Ruchniyus ladder?
As a MOVEMENT or HASHKAFA, is “Modern Orthodoxy” wrong?
The (honest) answer is YES.
However as I stated before, all Hashem wants of a person is to continually grow spiritually.
Whatever level you are on, you need to strive to be greater. To be a BEN ALIYA.
That’s why I got so upset over the TV thread.
NOBODY on this earth can claim that owning a TV is helpful for spiritual growth.
Whether you lose your Olam Habah or not is totally irrelevant.
A TV owner who is a BEN ALIYA would therefore have to say as follows, “I know in my heart that my TV is a thorn in the side of my spiritual growth, am I ready AT THIS MOMENT to get rid of it”?
If the answer is yes – great. If the answer is no – then he will keep this thought in mind until he feels he is ready to take the jump up to the next level in Ruchniyus.
And when he thinks this way, Hashem is happy.
However when he when he resorts to all sorts of intellectual calisthenics to “kasher up” his TV, (or any other “shtus” – TV is just an example) – he has missed the boat.
When he makes a whole fight out of losing Olam Habah instead of looking at the real issue here – he has missed the boat.
However one who recognizes what helps his ruchniyus & what detracts from it & truly attempts to avoid or get rid of (sooner or later) these spiritual pitfalls, is someone who no matter what the level of his spiritual observance AT THIS POINT IN TIME, is definitly in my opinion very much IS ON THE BOAT!December 21, 2008 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #629257dovid_yehudaParticipant
I recently read that if the behavior is helping you go up in kedusha, it is worthwhile, if a behavior is not – then it is not worthwhile, and poses a danger to your soul.
Can someone define the Modern Orthodox hashkafa? I’ve always thought it was a lifestyle dedicated to keeping all the mitzvot while having a large involvement in the secular world, primarily for parnasa. But I guess also other things like going to opera, and outwardly wishing to not draw attention to their identity as Jewish, e.g. no beard/peyot, tzitzit in, etc.December 21, 2008 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #629258
you said:”Does that mean that every MO person is bad. Of course not…
…When he makes a whole fight out of losing Olam Habah instead of looking at the real issue here – he has missed the boat.”
Well R’Miller is saying that evrey M.O person who has a T.V. in there house has no chelek in olam haboh, Do you think good people dont get a chelek in olam haboh?December 21, 2008 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #629259
R’ Miller is saying that ANY person who has a TV in their house has no chelek in Olam Haba, nothing to do with MO or not. He can be chareidi also.
Obviously he was reffering to anyone who should know better…otherwise they would be considred (in this “inyan”) a tinok shenishba.
I don’t see what is so difficult to understand.
As I mentioned previously, I don’t really get why some yo-yo in the CR thinks he has a better grasp on who gets into Olam Haba than a yid who went through Shas over 60 times & knew Chovos Halavavos, Sha’arei T’shuva & Mesilas Yesharim baal peh.
The tone of the question here is the main point. If one wants to come & say, “WOW, why is that?” in a sincere questioning fashion – that’s fine. Whereas when someone makes up his mind first that he’s right & R’ Avigdor Miller is wrong AND THEN asks questions, now that is not someone who’s a BEN ALYA, that’s just a person looking for “teirutzim”.
And, as I pointed out in my previous post, the whole question of getting into Olam Haba is not the issue here.
The issue is, do I want to try & grow closer to Hashem or do I just want to figure out a way to continue my current lifestyle & the Rabbonim should just leave me alone.December 21, 2008 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #629260
Lets call a spade a spade, please dont missrepresent what your leading rabbonim say to try to get other people to agree with you.
Thank you.December 21, 2008 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #629261yrosMember
Every one goes according to ther own rav. Maybe that is what leading rabbonim said.
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