December 22, 2008 12:07 am at 12:07 am #629262
O.K. so what was his reason? because so far anyone who i have asked (and i have asked many people) has failed to provide one that makes any sense.
Just because someone is a big talmid chochom does not mean that evreything they say that dosnt make any sense without a mekor that clearly means what they say, must be excepted as fact.
and what do you mean by “know better” because most M.O people know that chareidim hold it is assur gomor to have a T.V., so yes his statement WOULD include the vast majority of the M.O. community.December 22, 2008 12:10 am at 12:10 am #629263
It isnt. they generaly hold things along the line of rav millers statementDecember 22, 2008 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #629264
If you read my posts before responding to them perhaps we would be able to have a more productive give-and-take.December 22, 2008 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #629265
Deleted by YW Moderator-72. There are appropriate ways to word statements and ask questions and there are ways that are not appropriate. your statement was not worded in an appropriate way.December 22, 2008 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #629266
Thank you. I would still like to hear it (Rav Miller ZZL) on tape, and am glad there is an exeception for “those who don’t know better”.December 22, 2008 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #629268
Notpashut, thank you for giving me an honest (and respectful) answer. Now I at least understand where you are coming from and I can respect that you follow your rabbonim (although, I vehemently disagree with their conclusion).
I was always taught that the reason to be machmir was:
1) It was an area you were especially weak in and by being machmir you would eventually fall in line with actual halacha (finding the shvil hazahav)
2) It was an area you were worried about possibly transgressing, so you put up an extra layer of protection for yourself
As for MO philosophy – what you are talking about is Torah im Derech Eretz, Torah Umada is slightly different. Its hard to explain the nuances over the internet. Basically, science/secular knowledge is not forbidden, so long as you use it hand in hand with Torah knowledge/values.December 22, 2008 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #629269
As for television:
For most people, watching TV is a bad, time wasting thing, but not for everyone. For me, I learnt a lot about how Hashem runs the world, which helped give me a strong foundation of emunah.December 22, 2008 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #629270
Respectfully, I would like to add an additional point of Chumra.
When there is a Machlokes in Poskim, and we Paskin like the Maikel. One who is “Machmir” to be Choshesh for the other side is (in general) praised.
For example, I have heard a story of (I believe) R’ Yaakov who wanted to offer a certain Rav who was with him for Kiddush the right to make Kiddush, but he declined. When pressed, the Rav stated that he had not yet finished Shnaim Mikra, and there is a Shita which hold you are supposed to finish it before eating anything Shabbos day.
A Chumra? Yes. Do we say that anyone who eats before finishing Shnaim Mikra is Over an Issur? I think not.December 22, 2008 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #629271
Keep in mind that the Shach writes that in order to be machmir, you need a heter.
To paraphrase, “Who the heck are you to decide that the halacha is too lenient and you’re better and you need to be machmir.” The halacha is the halacha, why the need to be machmir.December 22, 2008 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #629272dovid_yehudaParticipant
I wouldn’t do it everyday, but when given an opportunity, and done privately, in a subtle and respectful (certainly not to chastise) manner – then, yes, it is actually a mitzva to not passively allow a fellow Jew to transgress the Torah, especially publicly such as desecrating Shabbat, (G-d forbid). The Rambam states that one must do this until his friend slaps him in the face, but under no circumstance is one to embarrass his friend in public by correcting or rebuking his behavior.
Judging a person’s neshoma is outside the parameters of Torah observance, but judging behavior is certainly possible.
Concerning the time spent watching TV, it has been explained to me that one of the main (if not the primary) differences between the chareidi and MO hashkafa is found in how one interprets Vayikra 26:3 (IM B’CHUKOTAI TEILEICHU V’ET MITVOTAI TISHM’RU V’AHSITEM OHTAM). Rashi brings that “toil in Torah” is an integral part of being observant. It is simply not enough to “strive to be 100% observant in Torah and Mitzvot” without dedicating a significant amount of time to learning Torah (or supporting those who do dedicate their lives to learning, if learning is beyond a person’s capability). Watching TV is time spent that otherwise could have been used to study; and we are taught that one will be held accountable for that choice.December 22, 2008 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #629273
I don’t want to be disrespectful, because I know it bothers you very much when people speak with disrespect to eachother (I don’t mean to be sarcastic in case I am coming across like that). Basically, I don’t this post will have any effect on you, but just to explain why you will never agree with eachother. Although in almost all aspects I can barely ever come up with one thing that you say against “halacha”.
You say that you don’t feel that you need gates [gedarim] for yourself.
I know this is a bit out of context but anyone can feel free to look at your post and I don’t think the words around it change it much. I think it is a bit scary. You seem to trust in yourself a bit too much. I am sure you are very trustworthy but you are still human. Chazal tell us that one should not trust in himself. (I dont remember the exact wording.) Again, I doubt I will have any influence on your life, but realize that when people seem to be equating “yeshivish” with more frum, see where they are coming from. They are not referring to the black hat. (Most people from more MO backgrounds who become more “yeshivish” don’t think they are doing a big mitzva by putting on the black hat. I assume they want to fit into the community around them which I think is pretty normal. That is usually one of the later steps.)
FYI, all the laws of muktza are pretty much gedarim.December 22, 2008 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #629274
dovid_yehuda, thank you for the clarification. I misunderstood the intent of your previous post. As for the time spent watching TV: there are many things that fall into that category that are not specific to TV (the internet is a great example). We will be held accountable for ALL out choices, and I think people single out television. I am not saying TV is great for everyone or all the time, but there are good uses for television as well.December 22, 2008 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #629275
“Notpashut, thank you for giving me an honest (and respectful) answer. Now I at least understand where you are coming from and I can respect that you follow your rabbonim (although, I vehemently disagree with their conclusion).”
Not bashing here but one thing I can say for sure is that even if it helped you, it does not change the facts for the other 99.9999999999% of the world.
“At no point does being machmir just to be more machmir (which is something I have seen in the yeshivish community) come into my repertoire.
I was always taught that the reason to be machmir was:
1) It was an area you were especially weak in and by being machmir you would eventually fall in line with actual halacha (finding the shvil hazahav)
2) It was an area you were worried about possibly transgressing, so you put up an extra layer of protection for yourself.
Here we do have a number of issues.
1)How do we define “chumra”?
2)Why be machmir?
1)It seems that the MO crowd defines “chumra” as any time there are 2 shittos and a person chooses the more machmir one.
Why does that make me a “machmir”? Maybe you are a “maikel”!
Why should I be more on the defensive on this one more than you?
Why should the yeshivishe crowd take flak for “looking for chumros”, but the MO crowd can’t be accused of relying on “kulos”?!
2)As far as the why be machmir issue, allow me to explain it the way I see it.
It’s clear from our discussions that you have YOUR Rav whom you follow.
That’s fantastic & that’s the way it should be.
However in our times, the facts are that MOST jews, both MO & black hat DON’T have ONE Rav who they ask ALL their shailos to. They sometimes daven here & sometimes daven there & sometimes ask this Rav & sometimes ask that Rav & sometimes they ask their Rosh Yeshiva & sometimes rely on what they heard R’ Soloveitchik held & sometimes rely on what they heard R’ Moshe held & sometimes…..you get the point.
So now, let’s take a common example – opening soda bottle caps on Shabbos.
Everone (chareidi) knows that R’ Elyashiv holds that it’s an issur d’oraisa & R’ Shlomo Zalman held that it’s 100% muttar.
Someone like I just described – what should he do?
If he had a specific Rav to ask (like you) then he’s off the hook, whatever the Rav says – he does.
But our guy who does not have a specific Rav is stuck. He can open the bottle & risk being a mechallel shabbos or he can stay put & lose out on a drop of “olam hazeh”. What is the prudent thing to do?
What will a yirei shomayim do?
R’ Bentzion Abba Shaul says in his mussar sefer “Ohr L’tzion” (a MUST read) that a person on a bus with a sandwich & no water to wash netilas yadayim – if he’s a real yirei shomayim won’t eat the sandwich. AYYYY he could eat the sandwich without touching the bread?
No, says R’ Bentzion, that’s a “kula” & a yirei shomayim does not rely on “kulos”.
So now what about our bottlecap case where the posek hador holds it’s an issur d’oraisa, what should he do?
My point is that I think yeshivishe people get a bad rap from people like you.
They are not “looking for chumros”. They are looking to be “mekayem” shulchan aruch.
All the yeshivishe people who I know who have “their” Rav to whom they ask all their shailos, follow his psak whether it’s l’kula or l’chumra.
The ones who are “machmir” are the ones who don’t have “their” Rav.
As opposed to he typical MO person in that situation who will say “Why should I be machmir for no reason”?
So I think that that IS a sign of being “frummer” & having more yiras shomayim as opposed to veiwing it as “repression for no reason”.
Maybe take a look at how HE views chumros & kulos. (The Vilna Gaon said he would WALK from Vilna to Italy to learn from him).
Many times the Mishna Berura says to try & be “yotzei” all the shittos & we find this concept very often from the Gemara down to the poskim of our era.
So it’s nice that you feel you don’t need it, but that doesn’t make everyone else silly, fanatical or incorrect.
Please, please don’t misquote me. All I said was that he was a Gadol (which is certainly true) but let’s not get carried away.
R’ Moshe wasn’t on his madreiga?
R’ Aharon wasn’t on his madreiga?
R’ Yaakov wasn’t on his madreiga?
The Satmar Rebbe wasn’t on his madreiga?
1) I think you’re mammash sticking your head in the sand (intentionally?) on the TV issue.
2)As far as chumros I think 50% of our disagreement is semantics & 50% is real.
3)I think you (& many other posters) unfortunately have NO CLUE – I’ll repeat that – NO CLUE, what a spiritual giant R’ Avigdor Miller was. He did not live on the same planet we lived on. I strongly suggest that you read up on him & or listen to his tapes before you just brush him aside. He was mammash one in a BILLION. (I’m not saying you have to follow him – I’m just saying – be careful).December 22, 2008 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #629276
One other point
Apparently you forgot the words of Chazal
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I have no intention of getting involved in the larger discussion of notpashut,SJSinNYC and others about leadershop in Klal yisroel. Too intense a subject and,at the end, everyone is right. But ,perusing over the (rather lengthy) posting by notpashut, I have to partially disagree with him on the matter of chumros and what to do when faced by such a dilemna.
BTW,I actually saw R”Shlomo Zalman’s zz’l psak on bottle tops ( I think it is brought down in Shemiras shabbbos kehilchoso). I have not seen the psak that notpashut claims he has heard from, yibodel lechaim tovim,Rav Elyashiv.Please elucidate and bring us the actual source,ESPECIALLY the fact that he says it is de’oraisa.
Be it what it may, to follow a chumro is,as he writes- for someone who wants FOR HIMSELF, to be machmir.Whether he wants to be a yirei shomaim or he wants to be joizeh lechol hadeos, a person ,individually, is entitled to do whatever he wnats and to be mekabel any chumro he wants.
HOWEVER, all this changes when you deal with the “tsibbur”. Then, as a matter of fact, you are NOT allowed to be machmir if you have the possibility of a kulloh. This is the whole essence of “koach dehetaira odif”. This is fully apparent in all sections of Shulchan aruch. Whether dealing with agunos (Even ho’ezer), or a eiruv on shabbos (Ohr hachaim) or with a question of kashrus when there is a hefsed merubah (joreh deah)or with questions of money where we say “jachloku’ or a similar compromise, (choshen mishpat). It is the duty of a possek to find the kulloh and to make life easier for the Klal.It is NOT the duty of a Possek to find a chumro.
Please peruse through any sefer of “shaalos uteshuvos” and you will find this approach respected. Sure ,there are cases when a possek feels he cannot find a kulloh but even then, he may advise the questioner to find someone else who will be able to Pasken ‘lekulloh”.
So, in the case of bottle tops, notpashut HIMSELF can decide he wnats to follow Rav Elyashiv. However, for the Klal, it is fully acceptable to follow R”Shlomo Zalman zz.l
Similarly ,his example of a sandwich and netilas yodaim. Of course, if you want to be machmir, you don’t eat the sandwich now. However, if the halocho allows you to eat it now (and it does) ,then the Klal can do it without any feelings of guilt whatsoever.
i don’t want to retread old postings but this is what should have been accepted (for example) about the eiruv in Boro park. Every individual can do what he thinks is right for him. For the klal, however, the eiruv should be valid.
In the larger picture, the so-called Modern orthodox crowd is entitled to follow the kullos of Poskim, because this is the halocho. The chareidim are entitled to be more machmir- but this cannot be a demand on the klal.
BTW- in answer to a correction of an earlier poster- for hiddur mitzvah we have to spend up to a THIRD more,as he wrote,from gemoro baba kama 9. When I wrote ‘up to a fifth’ , it was a reference to “al jevazvez odom joiser mhechomesh”. A man should never spend more than a fifth of his wealth on zeddakah (Kesubos 50). I thank the poster for his correction.December 23, 2008 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #629278
The poster mentioned in the earlier posting was gavra at work. Thank you for the correction (The 1/2 he mentions is the mathematical difference whether the third means ‘from inside”- a third of the present sum ,or ‘from the outside’ , a third of the FINAL sum, which would make it one half of the original sum)December 23, 2008 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #629279
NotPashut is obviously way more knowledgeable than me and responded pretty thoroughly. Any comment by me is superfluous. One thing I do want to mention is that you say that you don’t consider “yeshivish” people to be more “frum” than modern orthodox (the movements, not the individuals). I disagree.December 23, 2008 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #629280
Why does being yeshivish make someone more frum than someone MO? They are different hashkafos. We don’t have to go through the game of counting things in Shulchan Aruch that each side ignores. Being frum has nothing to do with Yeshivish or MO. You can be a frum MO and you can be a Yeshivishe apikores.December 23, 2008 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #629281
Your last post regarding Chumros on oneself vs the Klal is quoting the Mishna in Ediyos regarding Pitin Grisin in Perek Gimmel Mishna Gimmel.December 23, 2008 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #629282
Notpashut, first of all, I am sorry you feel misquoted. What I said was really tongue in cheek! I thought it came out that way but sometimes tone doesnt really show through.
Lets put R’ Miller’s statement aside for a moment….Now, I agree that for most people TV is destructive in many ways. However, that doesnt mean TV is bad, it just means if you cannot handle it, don’t use it. Also, there are plenty of ways to use TV for good – imagine if we had a kosher channel, with shiurim playing night and day! People who couldnt attend a shiur for certain reasons can see the shiur in action. Sometimes seeing how someone said something is very important! Imagine how well we could spread Torah. Yes, there are Torah tape libraries, but this is another way to spread Torah. You can have a TV service that just plays kosher things, the same way you have kosher filters on the internet. IMHO, the internet is more dangerous than TV because when you watch TV you can tell right away whats wrong, but with the internet, something thats basically kosher can turn into something unkosher. [The reason I said to take Rav Avigdor Miller’s statement out, is because I am not sure I hold by it AND I am not sure what constitutes a TV. I asked my Rav for some clarification on all this and am awaiting his response]
Now, as to having a Rav – are you sure it is the exception to have a Rav rather than the other way around? All the people I know (MO, yeshivish, chasidish) all have a Rav. Now, some people change rabbonim in their lives, but not on a constant basis! If they choose to pick the meikel or machmir side, at least they are choosing within halachic grounds. IIRC, there is some chazal that says something to the effect of “Dont live your life only machir or only meikel.”
Now about chumras: First, neither of us should have to be on the defense about the halachically acceptable path we follow. We just hold different shitas. Maikel and machmir or sort of relative terms, but being maikel doesnt mean “less frum” and being machmir doesnt mean “more frum.”
I guess sometimes its hard to define what is clearly a chumra and what is just a more machmir approach. I dont have a problem with saying “I rely on some kulos (per my rav).” That is fine with me – but I dont think you being more machmir in your approach makes you a halachically better Jew.
As for the bottle cap approach – if I didnt have one Rav, I would pick one to ask this question, and follow what he says. Yes, its better to have one Rav and be consistent, but at least you are getting a DIRECT answer, rather than what someone said one of the gedolim said. I always heard it was better to ask a Rav even if it means asking a different one a different question each time than to discern yourself what halacha to follow. [This doesnt mean to ask different rabbonim the SAME question, just that it is technically OK to ask different rabbonim different questions, even if you just want to rely on what each Rav is maikel on. Obviously not ideal, but still OK]
Lets look at my tuna fish example – I only eat dagim per my Rav. Its a more machmir approach. Does that mean people who eat Bumblebee tuna are following a halachically unacceptable path? No. Does it mean I am a better Jew for only eating Dagim? No. But its a more machmir approach. So, if I ate it, it wouldnt be kosherfor me, but for you its fine.
As for Mesilat Yesharim – I actually never learnt it. I just skimmed through it a bit (an english version) to get a bit of an understanding. I want to read it a little closer (which will take me some time), so I dont actually want to comment on the content. I do want to add that the mussar movement was sort of radical in its time – all changes are usually considered radical until fully accepted.
Now, I don’t think everyone who keeps a more machmir approach in life is silly, fanatical or incorrect, but I do think for ME, its not a good approach. I think I would wallow in details that arent neccesary to follow halacha. I think chumras are more of a personal thing and each person (with the help of their Rav) should decide what to take on.
ROB wrote a lot of great information. Thank you for what you added to the discussion!
As for what chazal say about watching yourself: I agree. And I do watch myself carefully. If I thought I was sliding (or someone pointed out to me that I was treading a thin line), I would put up gates. But right now, I don’t need them. I prefer to work on following all halacha, rather than working on chumras. In addition, there are plenty of gedarim already built in to halacha that I follow.December 23, 2008 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #629283brooklyn19Participant
poor mods. they gotta read through all these.December 23, 2008 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #629284
Welcome back. You don’t need to be afraid to address me directly – I won’t bite your head off – I promise.
I don’t have the time or koach to answer you or sjs in depth anymore – it’s just too draining. However I will try to deal with all issues – b’kitzur – no doubt to the delight of brooklyn19.
1)As far as “kocha d’hetaira odif”. The fact remains that you are incorrect. It is not BETTER. See Sdei Chemed & Minchas Shlomo daf 2a. If one has to “use his brains” to come up with a psak which happens to be l’chumra, that’s BETTER.
2)99% of the “kullos” from Rabbonim over the generations such as eiruvin & treifos etc. which as you correctly point out fill volumes of tshuvos, were given DUE TO THE HARDSHIPS – FINANCIAL & PHYSICAL IN THOSE TIMES.
However nowadays there is no need to rely on such “kullos” & we can revert back to keeping the halachos without relying on kullos.
With all due respect, that does not make everyone “machmirim”. On the contrary, till now we were “maikilim”!
If this is the opinion of the Rabbonim nowadays (not to beat a dead horse) then I’ll rely on their opinion thank you very much.
I personally know of a case with a very prominent chareidi Rav who in the world is considred to be from the MAJOR “Machmirim” concerning a person who found out in mid-life that he was a “mamzer” & this Rav worked literally yomam v’laila for a MONTH to try & find a heter.
1)Didn’t catch the tounge in cheek – sorry.
2)You are driving me nuts with the TV thing. THE FACTS ARE that 99.99999999999% of people who have a TV are spiritually damaged by it. PERIOD. If you think that you are not – bevakasha – do as you wish. Just PLEASE stop defending it!!
3) About most people having a Rav. Maybe I’m wrong about the statistics, I guess the only way to find out is to take a poll. (But I think I’m right 🙂 )
4)To quote you, “I dont think you being more machmir in your approach makes you a halachically better Jew”.
The Mesilas Yesharim disagrees. (Obviously referring to aperson who is “holding on that level”).
5)”it is technically OK to ask different rabbonim different questions, even if you just want to rely on what each Rav is maikel on. Obviously not ideal, but still OK]”
If I am understanding you correctly – definitly NOT OK.
6)”I do want to add that the mussar movement was sort of radical in its time – all changes are usually considered radical until fully accepted”.
It’s time was 150 years ago.
It’s been fully accepted for over 100 years.
As far as Mesilas Yesharim specifically, allow me to remind you that the Vilna Goan who said he would WALK from Vilna to Italy to learn from him passed away 211 years ago.
Do you think Chassidus has been accepted? That was STARTED TWENTY YEARS AFTER THE RAMCHAL WAS NIFTAR!
7)”I think chumras are more of a personal thing and each person (with the help of their Rav) should decide what to take on”.
poor mods. they gotta read through all these.
Just remember – It’s harder for me to write these things than for you to read them. 🙂December 24, 2008 1:33 am at 1:33 am #629285oomisParticipant
The Nazir is machmir on himself because he perceives that he could easily be nichshal and possibly commit aveiros due to his potential for becoming a shikker. So he becomes a nazir, wherein he may not partake of anything that can lead to becoming drunk, and where his appearance is allowed to become unkempt and therefore unimportant to himself. The Torah does NOT view this as meritorious, and he must bring a korban (is it an asham?)after the period of nezirus is over. It is not lauditory that he put these chumros on himself, they are simply a necessity because of his own moral failing or the potential thereof.December 24, 2008 2:57 am at 2:57 am #629286
i am not sure whether my psoting was sent…i clikced the wrong button…
anyway- notpashut, I will comment very briefly on yoru posting.
(BTW- I dont’ get my head bitten off too often)
You are right in saying that some of the kullos in the past were because of hardship. The best example is when ‘hefsed merubah’ is quoted. However, there are many instances when hardhsip is still present. It is very difficult for women with children to stay home all shabbos. This is a very acceptable reason why to institute an eiruv. There are others too-like making sure that no one is mechalel shabbos inadvertently. All these reasons are present today too.
It would be easy to unscrew the bottle tops before shabbos and you are welcome to do this but if one has not done so, there is a good reason to rely upon r’sholom zalman’s psak.It is thirst.
My point is that the search for kullos is a very legitimate way to pasken halochos, even today.For the klal, this is most evident,even if the jochid can do what he wants for himself, as many gedolim have done.
I still disagree with you on the meaning of ‘koach dehetaira odif”. Rashi makes it clear that the reason for this is because you need BETTER reasons to be “mattir”. By hence, it is more correct than to be machmir. By definition, it is easier to say no. Anway- as you say- this will be an ongoing debate.December 24, 2008 2:59 am at 2:59 am #629287
gavra at work… thanks for the “amreh mekomos’. I salute your erudition. The last time I learned Edyios is some time ago but I will check it IYH…December 24, 2008 3:17 am at 3:17 am #629288
I have read most of rabbi miller’s books and listend to probably over 100 tapes of his. I dont see how this would change or is applicable to any of the opinions in this conversationDecember 24, 2008 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #629289
Methinks that we are making ALOT of foward progress.
You have changed your tone from – “The yeshivishe oilam is looking for chumros” – to, “the search for kullos is a very legitimate way to pasken halochos”.
If we can agree on this point then I think that’s worthy of ANOTHER shot of Slivovitz (see the sports thread).
“I still disagree with you on the meaning of ‘koach dehetaira odif”. Rashi makes it clear that the reason for this is because you need BETTER reasons to be “mattir”. By hence, it is more correct than to be machmir. By definition, it is easier to say no”.
Not true. The point of Rashi, Tosafos & all the meforshim is that to be machmir you don’t need to “use your brains”. To be maikel, however, one needs to “learn the sugya”.
Therefore, it is obvious to the thinking man & indeed the S’dei Chemed brings from the Rishonim, that if the machmir “learned the sugya” as well as the maikel, & paskened that the kulla cannot be relied upon, whereas the maikel is just “being soimech on the maikilim” the very same logic dictates that the chumra is BETTER.
So, INTRINSICALLY everyone agrees that the kulla is NOT BETTER.
See the aforementioned Minchas Shlomo who brings a different reason from the TZLA”CH (if my memory serves me correctly)which proves my point as well.December 24, 2008 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #629290Feif UnParticipant
notpashut: Sometimes, you’re not “relying on the maikel”. For example, R’ Moshe zt”l paskened that you don’t need ch9olov yisrael in the US. Would you consider R’ Moshe a maikel? Yet, many people take the chumrah on themselves. There are many other chumros like this. I’ve asked Rabbonim about certain things, wanting to know the mekor for things I was told were halachos. I was told they are chumros which are widely accepted. Maybe they’re accepted in Brooklyn and Lakewood, but where I live now, I don’t think anyone accepted them. In Europe, I don’t know if they were widely accepted.
When a “yeshivish” crowd accepts a chumrah as a whole, it doesn’t become halachah.December 24, 2008 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #629291MountainEducatorMember
Rav Yitzchok Horowitz AKA R Iche Der Masmid HY’D was a renowned Chabad chassid who was very friendly with Rav E.E Dessler (He is brought down In Michtav Me’eliyhu 4th volume in section of Tzimtzumim) was machmir to the extreme. Recently I came across first hand account of someone who listened in to conversation when R Itche came to his Rebbe The Rasha”b and asked for a Tikkun for 2 “aveiros”.
In short the story went that he was in some town for shabbos and he asked host to make sure the shochet checked the Chalif again before he shechted his chicken (Chumra). On shabbos they served him kugel which had chicken fat supposedly from HIS chicken, he asked they verify and they were mistaken. It was fat from a ‘regular’ chicken. He didnt eat it.
Later the local Rav, a great Yorei Shamayim came to visit, saw the kugel and asked what happened, he was told and the rav proceded to eat it.
R Itche cried to the Rashab that “it is known that a chumra one accepts upon oneself that he in not up to spiritually, internally, it brings him down a madreiga”. Being that the Rav did eat it he felt he needs to rectify the exessive chumra effect.
Taking Chumros to impress, that affects others, or to be ‘in’ is definatly not a inyanDecember 24, 2008 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #629292
I will argue (and apologize in advance that I will not be able to respond until I get back to work) that taking on a chumra so that one can “fit in” to a more frum shul than he may be in normally, have his children join the “best” schools etc. is a good thing, as it shows his wanted madraiga vs. the one he is currently on.
Of coure I agree that if the purpose is to show off than it MAY even be Assur to be Machmir. (as always, ask your LOR)
Good story.December 24, 2008 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #629293dovid_yehudaParticipant
“R’ Moshe zt”l paskened that you don’t need ch9olov yisrael in the US. Would you consider R’ Moshe a maikel?”
He kept CY for himself, and within his response was the admonition that those who do hold with CY not cause Jews who do not feel in anyway inferior. Having said that, I could be wrong but I think the question he responded to was regarding where it was impossible to get CY milk. Nowadays one can get CY products with more ease, and it may be that this opinion has been stretched beyond its intended purpose.
I think it is very important that those who hold to a stringency not look down on those who are more lenient as long as the leniency is within the halacha.
Many things are permitted, although not obigations. This does not mean that Jews are better off to indulge in everything that is not prohibited.December 24, 2008 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #629294
“notpashut: Sometimes, you’re not “relying on the maikel”. For example, R’ Moshe zt”l paskened that you don’t need ch9olov yisrael in the US. Would you consider R’ Moshe a maikel”?
First of all, R Moshe himself said (unless I am very much mistaken)that regarding cholov yisroel “Ba’al nefesh yachmir”.
Second of all RoB has been making the argument all along that YES – R’ Moshe was a maikel!
“When a “yeshivish” crowd accepts a chumrah as a whole, it doesn’t become halachah”.
I agree, the only point I’ve been trying to drill through all your heads is that they need not be villified for doing so either.
Additionally, it must be cleary ascertained as to whether they are really being “machmir” at all, maybe everybody else is being maikel.
This has been discussed in depth on much of this “page”.
“Taking Chumros to impress, that affects others, or to be ‘in’ is definatly not a inyan”.
Of Course.December 24, 2008 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #629295
well, a last posting before hadlakas ner chanukkah–
notpashut- The reason why you think that “we are making a lot of forward progress” is not that I have suddenly changed how I think. it is because ,ALL ALONG, I was who I was. You may have gotten a different idea from our discussions, but I know the ‘chareidi” world very well and even if I may disagree on some key issues (eretz yisroel primarily) I can understand the reasoning behind some of the halachic issues.
I have always respected the gedolim of all “machanos’ and I fully understand how halocho is arrived at. Where I differ from you is in declaring the fact that a Klal has to be treated differently than an individual. And – the way I see it – some poskim have eschewed that basic idea today.
This does not make them wrong , just that I think the “kulloh” is more appropriate for the “zibbur” ,regardless of whether we are richer or better today. BTW- I don’t remember saying that “the yeshivishe oilam is looking for chumros”. They are fully entitled to do this but I do not have to accept this view.
On many ,many issues contemporary Poskim have not tried to find a way out for some very serious problems. I will only quote one issue -one that has scarcely been talked about on this website- and this is the question of agunos.
There are hundreds-maybe thousands- of women who cannot receive a ‘get’ because of the intransigeance of their husbands. Now- in the past ,when divorce was rare, this was an isolated case and it would have been difficult to make special provisions.
Today, unfortunately, modern society is different and so ,some years ago, the Union of Orthodox Congr. came out with a “pre-nuptial’ agreement, that was fully halachically correct according to their Poskim. The proverbial all h-ll broke loose. From Israel
(beshem Rav Elyashiv, if I remember correctly),dire warnings that these gittin were not valid and the children of later marriages were mamzerim…”Kheruzim” were issued in Israel and on and on it went…
Till….it was explained to these Poskim what was really in these agreements and the whole matter went quiet.
Now, my point is not that ,ironically, Rav Elyashiv and others came to accept the halachic decision of the O-U rabbonim,but to ask, why the chareidi Poskim in Israel (and the US) did not come up with a good , or better, version of this agreement much earlier, so as to spare thousands of women terrible ‘agmas nefesh”.
And it is here that I question the logic of today’s Poskim. Because, as I see it, they did not want to look for an acceptable way for solving this problem as it would have entailed some kullos and possibly, even some ‘daas jochid”. SO -they did nothing. This is what I mean by a tendency today not to look for kullos.I can point to issues in past centuries where the Poskim did make very special provisions when the Klal was involved.
You are free to comment on this and till then- a freilichne chanukka!
(I will respond to your understanding of koach dehetaira later)December 25, 2008 12:05 am at 12:05 am #629296MountainEducatorMember
If the ‘chumra’ is in order to be part of a certain society then i guess its not a halachic, or spiritual question, it’s now a social issue. AND as far as social questions go acceptance IS the #1 concern.
So if your kids are at stake, no question go ahead and DO THE REQUIRED SOCIAL NORM. Put on the peyos, grow that beard, change the havara, make sure your gartel is thick enough and don’t chas veshalom be seen eating OU.December 25, 2008 2:51 am at 2:51 am #629297
Nobody is vilifiing anyone for keeping any amount of chumros, we are just asking that you or black hatters in general shouldnt look down on people who either dont hold of or dont keep your chumros.December 25, 2008 9:39 am at 9:39 am #629298
“Nobody is vilifiing anyone for keeping any amount of chumros, we are just asking that you or black hatters in general shouldnt look down on people who either dont hold of or dont keep your chumros”.
The amount of black hatters who look down on people who don’t hold of or don’t keep their chumros is no more than the amount of MO who villify black hatters for keeping chumros in the first place.
OK, I’ll just come out & say it straight, which will no doubt trigger a stream of angry responses.
There seems to be a bit of a double standard, not restricted to this website rather in the frum world in general.
If G-d forbid a black hatter speaks or feels negatively toward the non-balck hat community he is mamash considred a jew-hating rasha m’rusha anti-semite & the cause of all children going off the derech & holding back mashiach from coming.
But wait a second, who’s the great oheiv yisroel calling him all these names????
The anti chareidi posts in the CR (not this thread in particular) put to shame any others in respect to the depths of sinah from which they are written.
It kind of reminds me of our good friend “The Reverand” Al Sharpton who seems to feel that any slight word against his people smacks of racism while spewing hatred out of the other side of his mouth toward the very people he hates for supposedly hating him.
My personal feeling are in tune with the profound words of Rodney King (remember him?) who said:
WHY CAN’T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?December 25, 2008 9:50 am at 9:50 am #629299
I got so carried away with my tirade that I forgot to address your post. My apoligies.
“Where I differ from you is in declaring the fact that a Klal has to be treated differently than an individual. And – the way I see it – some poskim have eschewed that basic idea today”.
I agree with you 100% that very often a Klal has to be treated differently than an individual.
Our disagreement lies in whether or not we trust the Gedolai HaDor to make the decision when yes & when no.
This is the response to your entire post, I guess.December 25, 2008 10:11 am at 10:11 am #629300
Sorry for taking up more of everyone’s time but if you are reading this in the first place I guess you can spare some.
Just wanted to share a great story to bring home the point I’ve been trying to make which a freind of mine told me he heard in a speech.
The speaker related how he had picked up a guy hitching a ride. They were in the car together for over a half hour during which the passenger let him know – in no uncertain terms – that he despised the litvaks, despised the chassidim, despised the sfardim, despised the taimanim, despised the mizrachnikim, despised the chilonim etc. etc.
Toward the end of the ride the driver – who was somewhat in shock from this “drasha” – finally asked his passenger why he despised all these yidden so much.
They reply came with no lack of righteous indignation: Because none of them have Ahavas Yisroel!!December 25, 2008 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #629301
NOTPASHUT….this is a funny story !
you are (partially) right in saying that we differ in whether we trust the “gedolei hador’ to make these decisions. This dovetails with our earlier discussion on when ‘daas torah” should be invoked.
My pther (pretty crucial) disagreeemnt with you is WHO those gedolei hador are and whether we must follow ONLY these gedolei hador.
And this comes back to the crux of a lot of discussions in this CR -as yo ucall it.
We are a diverse people and we have different Poskim that we follow in halachic rulings.
It SEEMS- and I repeat “seems”- that the chassidische and-ironically- the so-called modern orthodox Poskim tend to lean “lekulloh” on most issues. And it “seems’ that the so-called litvishe Poskim tend to lean le-chumro.
This is where most of the divisions arise. Whether on eiruvim, geirim, education, today-s litvhioshe gedolim have tilted le’chumro. This is what we see and why this conception is present.December 25, 2008 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #629302
About time. I don’t think you have to be afraid to say what you know is true. Everyone on the “other side” (I put that in quotes because I know we should not be calling it “sides”) seems to be able to say whatever they think. You don’t have to be afraid of anyone except H-shem. And by the way, the only reason that I didn’t write what you did is because I know it’s true but don’t have enough knowledge to back it up when i get hit with all the questions.I think you do. Keep it up and stop being so afraid to say the truth.December 25, 2008 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #629303
Funny story indeed.
I agree with almost your entire post (perhaps that warrants yet ANOTHER shot of Slivovitz?).
Indeed the gap seems to be narrowing…
I would just prefer to say that the litvishe are more “medakdek”, insofar as they prefer to avoid “getting into shailos” in the first place.December 25, 2008 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #629304
Thanks 🙂December 25, 2008 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #629305
Well, it is the season of miracles indeed…notpashut and myslef coming close to agreeing! Both sides, it seems to me, are being flexible, at least in a theoratical sense. i remember the same happened to joseph and my in some early posting. Clearly, the slivovitz is flowing…BTW,I had some good scotch this morning!
This is to joseph (if he reads this post) I have encountered a “joseph’ on another commentary website, which I will not name (dai lechakima beremiza). Can it be you???December 25, 2008 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #629306
Who are you fooling?
Its the chareidei olam black hat olam who greneraly say that M.O rabbanonim arnt real rabbonim (or gedolim) or are minnim ect. and that M.O. yeshivos shouldnt be called yeshivos, NOT the other way around (yes im sure you can bring me a qoute from a M.O. rabbi who says chareidei yeshivos arnt yeshivos however as a general rule you know I am right).
It is the chareidei black hat olam who many times wont let there kids play with another kid because he is to “modern” not the other way around
It is the chareidei black hat olam that generaly say that there mehalach is the only one that can really be called Torah yiddishkeit NOT the other way around.December 26, 2008 12:50 am at 12:50 am #629307JosephParticipant
rob, I do periodically (i.e. infrequently) participate in a small number of other Torah discussions (under the same name as here), but as you can imagine I don’t have a monopoly to the name. Rav Eidensohn’s place perhaps?December 26, 2008 2:03 am at 2:03 am #629308
gavra at work- I went back to the origins and your quote about “Pitttim geritzim’ is indeed in Eydios Third Perek but in mishna ten. I had long forgotten that mishna. However, the same EXACT mishna appears in Baitza ,second Perek ,Mishna vov (six).I got this info from the side commentators.
For the readers who dont’ know the quotation, Rav Gamliel ( I think he was the grandson of Rabbon Gamliel Hazoken)says that you can only bake small, thin breads on Yom Tov. (Gritzim meaning thin) because of “tircha’ on yom tov. The Chachomim disagree and Rav Gamliel then invokes “Bais Abba’ (his father’s house)that they only baked thin breads on yom tov. On this, the chachomim say that in Bais Abba they were machmir on themselves but for the Klal you are allowed to bake thick breads because they bake better.
Hence, gavra at work’s contention and proof that this is an example of people that take on chumros that are not required of the Klal.
Thank you for pointing out this mishna, gavra at work.December 26, 2008 8:10 am at 8:10 am #629309rebetzinParticipant
I don’t have time to read this whole discussion, but I agree with notpashut. I’ve been visting blogs and frum forums for years, and chareidi bashing seems to be the (sub)conscious agenda on the majority of them. Many people think that open mindedness goes one way. It’s PC to be open minded about anyone less religious or less machmir, but hatred and mocking of anything chareidi is perfectly acceptable. This is the general “mood” on the internet, and it even filters down to sites like Yeshivaworld, although to a lesser extent.
“It is the chareidei black hat olam that generaly say that there mehalach is the only one that can really be called Torah yiddishkeit NOT the other way around. “
Funny I should read this 5 minutes after reading a post on a different blog that stresses the importance of letting the world know that certain customs observed in certain chareidi communities are not normative Judaism.December 26, 2008 8:18 am at 8:18 am #629310rebetzinParticipant
Just read through a bit more of this discussion and I want to make clear that I don’t agree with everything notpashut said (specifically regarding chumros), just about the part that MO look down on chareidim.December 26, 2008 11:10 am at 11:10 am #629311
I only respond to your post being that “shtika k’hodah” not be used against me.
“Its the chareidei olam black hat olam who greneraly say that M.O rabbanonim arnt real rabbonim (or gedolim) or are minnim ect. and that M.O. yeshivos shouldnt be called yeshivos, NOT the other way around (yes im sure you can bring me a qoute from a M.O. rabbi who says chareidei yeshivos arnt yeshivos however as a general rule you know I am right)”.
Need I remind you that the Rosh Yeshiva of YU is the Rav of the OU – TOGETHER with the Rosh Yeshiva of Torah Vodaas?
Is he not a real Rav?
As opposed to other MO “Rabbanim” who write articles for the Jerusalem Prust entitled “Moshe Rabbeinu – Great Scholar, poor leader”.
So bottom line – JUST LIKE chareidi Rabbanim – the real ones are real & the fake ones are fake. And Yeshivos as well – some deserve the title & some don’t. The chareidi Rabbonim who speak against MO yeshivos will JUST AS QUICKLY speak against a chareidi institution when they deem it neccesary, if you don’t know that this is the case you either didn’t go to chareidi institutions or slept through your tenure within them.
“It is the chareidei black hat olam who many times wont let there kids play with another kid because he is to “modern” not the other way around”.
100% correct. My best fiend is MO. I don’t let my kids play in his house. The reason is because he lets his kids watch movies on the computer, has secular newspapers with pictures of immodestly dressed women (lashon nekiya) lying on his coffe table & generally runs his house in a way which I believe would negatively impact the spiritual level of my children. (even though he “learns a lot” “keeps halacha 100&” etc. etc.)
He lets his kids play in my house because, well why not?
If both of us are capable of understanding this & it is perfectly logical I don’t see why you seem to be feel that that makes me a bad person.
“It is the chareidei black hat olam that generaly say that there mehalach is the only one that can really be called Torah yiddishkeit NOT the other way around”.
That is also true. The reason is because that is the Mesorah which we have recieved from R’ Shach, The Chazon Ish, The Chofetz Chaim, Rabbeinu Yitzchok Elchanan, R’ Akiva Eiger, The Noda B’yehuda, The Vilna Goan etc. etc. & history has shown that those who veer off of this path sooner or later end up in a situation where either their kids become “chareidi” or go more & more to the left until they fall off the jewish map.
That is the way we see it. We don’t villify, viciously attack, or publicly demean any other jew (except in rare cases of public chillul hashem or some other extraordinary circumstance) rather we are mechanech our children to follow the path of our forefathers & to avoid “new” ideas.
Unfortunately as I pointed out, the posts from non chareidim don’t seem to be as hateless, rather are filled with venomous rhetoric more suitable for Sharpton-led rallies.
All my relatives & aquaintances who are MO seem to look foward & relish any opputinity to bash black hatters & chareidi hashkafa in general & it almost seems as though they peruse the newspapers & internet “looking for ammunition”. I have never noticed this trend amongst chareidim.
Perhaps you live on a different planet than I do & if so then there is really nothing I can do to help you.December 26, 2008 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #629312
I took a poll amongst my friends about having a Rav. Everyone told me that they do to some extent. Some are in temporary areas and use their childhood rabbonim. Others are in a permanent place and use the rav of their shul. A third category have a rav that they are using right now and are searching for a new one (for whatever reasons) but still ask the first rav their questions until they find a “permanent solution.” I only had one friend who doesnt have a Rav, but honestly, I am not sure she cares to follow halacha very well so it wouldnt matter much. I would call her on the cusp of practicing/non-practicing.
About the vilifying the black hat/charedi communities – I think the vilification goes both ways between MO and black hat /charedi. In my experience, it is also more likely to happen from the black hat community to the MO community than vice versa. I think this is because many MO kids are becoming black hat / charedi and their parents still love them and accept them. The families I know where the kids went from black hat to MO (in general) have a much harder time accepting their children for who they are.
Just remember, you admitted that you don’t think MO is halachically sound. Why are you asking the MO community to respect your halachic path when you don’t respect theirs? Isn’t that a double standard?
As for maikel/machmir – I think its a circular debate because the terms are sort of dependant on each other. 10 is greater than 9, but 11 is greater than 10. Its a reference point, rather than an absolute.
One more thing about TV: if you can accept that it wasnt damaging (and was beneficial) to me, why cant you accept that for some people it can be beneficial? I think that people who cannot handle TV should absolutely NOT use it but that its a personal decision. Thats it 🙂
Intellegent, I don’t think notpashut has had trouble saying what he thinks. We have had plenty of spirited debates on this site before where he has been involved. I just think we will have to disagree on wheter or not notpashut is the only one speaking “truth,” which is what your post seems to imply.
You didnt really flesh out your statement that you think yeshivish people are more “frum” than modern orthdox. Can you give some sort of explanation?
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