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Tagged: Chillul Hashem, Coronavirus
- This topic has 71 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 3 years ago by n0mesorah.
May 28, 2020 8:57 am at 8:57 am #1865628
What does the oilam hold about peaceful civil disobedience against laws that are morally wrong but not related in any way to religion (for example, New York allowing Walmart to sell jewelry but not small businesses). Is it a violation of Dina d’Malchusa Dina? Is it a chillul hashem if people understand that you are not simply above the law just against unconstitutional laws?May 28, 2020 10:15 am at 10:15 am #18656841Participant
Jews aren’t supposed to draw attentionMay 28, 2020 10:27 am at 10:27 am #1865698
I guess you were not around in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s 2000s
The MO crowd marched with MLK and the civil rights crowds
SSSJ and other related group did civil disobedience all the time.
There was civil disobedience with the withdrawal from Yamit and Gaza.
West Bank settlers do that anytime a settlement is dismantled just to name a few,May 28, 2020 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #1865716akupermaParticipant
Is opposition to tyranny justified? Is it coincidence that the places with the strictest rules against businesses (especially small businesses) and against religion are rules by a political party that has become well known for its opposition to both free enterprise and religion? Once the government allows (de facto) gatherings for secular or commercial purposes, but specifically bans religious gathering, it transforms a legitimate (even if misguided) public health policy which falls under the scope of Dina Malchusa Dina, into a specifically anti-religious policy which we can ignore. Once the Democrats in New York moved from public health concerns to using Covid19 to implement broader social and economic policies, the respect owed the sovereign dissipates.
Was it wrong for American Americans, with much help from others, to have engaged in peaceful protests and civil disobedience against “Jim Crow”, rather than engaging in armed resistance (the only other alternative offered)? Would it have better if the zionists had engaged only in civil disobedience and peaceful protests against the British (as did the people in India), rather than in armed resistance (and at the time most gedolim were opposed to armed resistance against the British).May 28, 2020 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #1865724JosephParticipant
Mr. Avi Weiss had no right to break the law when he chained himself to embassies or consulates and the other forms of civil disobedience he committed against the law.May 28, 2020 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1865737Reb EliezerParticipant
1, what you are saying is a Klei Yokor in Parshas Devorim on פנו לכם צפונה be hidden in galus. Don’t make Aisov jealous by building fancy houses and forgeting we are strangers in a strange land.May 28, 2020 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1865770
Both examples you mentioned, are very religious causes to the people involved.May 28, 2020 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1865759
I see some posters are mentioning the Jews participating in civil disobedience against Jim Crow. I always knew that the non-observant Jews were very into it then (led by the Kopichnitzer’s conservadox cousin). Does anyone know of any MO rabbis or communities that joined the effort? I was actually always curious about this.May 28, 2020 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1865780RedlegParticipant
Reb Eliezer, we are NOT strangers or guests in the U.S. We are full citizens with all the rights and responsibilities appertaining thereto. We need not step aside for, nor or defer to, anyone. If you feel uncomfortable here or that you’re a guest or stranger here, there is a place where you can go. Oh, and don’t give me that nonsense about “Jews felt at home in Germany, etc.” The U.S. ain’t Germany in any way, shape or form.
Joseph, Avi Wiess did break the law and was legitimately subject to punishment,but he was morally correct to take the actions he did in calling attention to the injustices he saw.May 28, 2020 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1865792unomminParticipant
Pinchas didn’t post blog entries, he just did what was right. #brisShalomMay 28, 2020 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1865805ChananiaLParticipant
Redleg, we are American citizens, yes, we can show a piece of paper that says we are American “citizens”, but we are not Americans, just like we weren’t Poles, Russians, Germans, Hungarians, Spaniards, Englishmen etc. “HEY Goyim, we are Americans just like you” doesn’t fool anyone, and leads to anti-semitism.May 28, 2020 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1865807
@nom and the same is true in this caseMay 31, 2020 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1865937
RE and Chanania, you are wrong. We ARE Americans. Not just on paper but in every way. We are not strangers or guests here but equal partners and owners of this country. Even if it’s not our true permanent home, it belongs to us just as much as it belongs to every other citizen. We do not petition for privileges, we demand our rights. (This creates a temptation to simply settle down here and start considering it our home, and forget about Eretz Yisroel. We must resist that temptation, and remember that we intend eventually to leave here and go home. But in the meantime we are not here as strangers or guests or even as tenants, but as owners. And when we go back home we will still be owners here, unless we voluntarily choose to renounce it.)May 31, 2020 1:16 am at 1:16 am #1865949Avi KParticipant
If you really want to get down to it everybody except full-blooded Native Americans are in a sense squatters in America (including Canada and Latin America). Even those of us who have left for various reasons (and there may be as many as nine million American ex-pats around the world – the Wikipedia even has an article titled “The American Diaspora”) by and large retain citizenship with all of the rights and responsibilities thereof. So in that sense we are still Americans. Does someone who leaves his parents’ home stop being their child? France, BTW, even reserves eleven seats in the National Assembly for ex-pats on the basis of geographic area. The member for the district that encompasses Cyprus, Greece, Vatican City, Israel, Italy, Malta, San Marino, and Turkey is Meyer Habib. He splits his time between Jerusalem and Paris and is very active in Likud and general pro-Israel circles.May 31, 2020 1:16 am at 1:16 am #1865948Jersey JewParticipant
The RIOTERS should be shot.
End of story.May 31, 2020 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #1866066takahmamashParticipant
“West Bank settlers do that anytime a settlement is dismantled just to name a few,”
“West Bank” means nothing. Refer to the areas by their proper names – Yehuda and the Shomron.May 31, 2020 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1866075JosephParticipant
TakahM: Good point. You should also reprimand anyone referring to “Israel” rather than using its proper name, Eretz Yisroel.May 31, 2020 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1866110
JJ -“The RIOTERS should be shot.
End of story”
That wouldn’t solve anything.
What we NEED is Conservative politicans, esp. in the Inner Cities!
The Dawn of New Liberalism, since the 1960’s, has Not solved anything.
It only has created More Social Unrest!May 31, 2020 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1866112
JerseyJew: The RIOTERS should be shot.”
End of story.”
If you believe rioters should be shot, do you also believe that a counterfeiter should be strangled to death, while in handcuffs screaming “Help! I can’t breath!”. Please think before you post insensitively.
No one deserves to die.May 31, 2020 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1866143
DC, Floyed was NOT strangled. And anyone who says he can’t breathe, can. Do you deny that a counterfeiter should be arrested, and that if he fights his arrest he should be restrained and subdued? There is no right to resist arrest and fight the police, just because one doesn’t feel like being arrested that day.May 31, 2020 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1866172
DC -“No one deserves to die.”
He should have cared about his own Life.
If cops give you orders – you Must comply.
They had to take him out of the cruiser, because of Non-compliance.
What do you think when this happens in Jail?
Jails have almost 100% compliance!
That’s because they aren’t Under the Jurisdiction of the Liberal Cities.May 31, 2020 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1866173
“DC, Floyed was NOT strangled.”
No, he wasn’t strangled; he just had a knee pressed against his neck for 8 minutes until he was pronounced dead moments later….. Really now, Milhouse?! Didn’t I just say something about not posting insensitive comments?!
Floyd was in HANDCUFFS, and had 2 someone sitting on his legs. The guy was powerless!
As Jews, we believe that every human was created in Hashem’s image, and each one could fulfill Hashem’s Ratzon by leading a life of peace, based on the 7 mitzvos bnei noach…. A comment such as JeseyJew’s should be taken down by YW staff (actually, it shouldn’t have been sanctioned in the first place), especially because the user identifies himself as a “Jew”. which makes the chilul hashem much worse, if someone were to visit the sight, and chance upon this comment.May 31, 2020 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1866193🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
DF- the RIOTERS should be shot because they are a physical threat to the lives of the store owners, policemen and others. That in NO way indicates support for police brutality, especially where there was NO threat. Calm down and think before you go off on someone.May 31, 2020 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1866195DovidBTParticipant
If you believe rioters should be shot, do you also believe that a counterfeiter should be strangled to death, while in handcuffs screaming “Help! I can’t breath!”. Please think before you post insensitively.
No one deserves to die.
From what I’ve read, he was a felon who had served prison time for armed robbery. He was resisting arrest for trying to pass counterfeit money.
If he had cooperated with the police, they wouldn’t have needed to use force, and he wouldn’t have been harmed.June 1, 2020 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1866246skripkaParticipant
He wasn’t resisting arrest once you passed the first minute. He was defenseless and dying, and the other cops should’ve intervened. You should be able to separate the awful killing of Floyd, and the subsequent protests, and the looters taking advantage of the chaos to do their Holiday shoppimg.June 1, 2020 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1866278
DC -“Floyd was in HANDCUFFS, and had 2 someone sitting on his legs. The guy was powerless!”
SL -“That in NO way indicates support for police brutality, especially where there was NO threat.”
Unfortunately, the two of you have succumbed to the PC of our generation.
The perp was obviously high on something, like PCP. Three cops wouldn’t hold him. (Maybe 10.) That’s why they took him out of the patrol car. Even Mace or taser, might not work.
The Prosecutor did an Unjust thing by filing charges!June 1, 2020 7:30 am at 7:30 am #1866307
We encroached on this topic in a different thread. As far as I know, once a separation of church and state is achieved the state is defined as the property of the government. Please point me to any of the framers of our constitution that thought otherwise. I would be very open to your argument. But I never came across any thinker that even considered it.
“And when we go back home we will still be owners here,” You lost me here. Does this mean dual citizenship?June 1, 2020 7:31 am at 7:31 am #1866309
The OU was the first Orthodox group to support civil rights. YI 1962. RCA 1964. Rabbi Louis Tuchman was in Charleston and Durham in the 50’s and was openly pro civil rights. Rabbi Saul Berman was arrested at Selma. Rabbi Yitz Greenberg promoted the idea in NY. Rabbi Tsvi Blanchard. Rabbi Aaron Soloveichik. (see his Civil Rights and Human Dignity)June 1, 2020 7:31 am at 7:31 am #1866311
Having your business shut is a religious issue? Oh. Maybe legalizing marijuana is also religious.June 1, 2020 8:19 am at 8:19 am #1866358
No but opening a shul or yeshiva maybeJune 2, 2020 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1867107
•Floyd was not high. He was drunk, so read the article.
•I cannot find a source on the internet that he was involved in armed robbery; I don’t see how that bears any relevance on the subject at hand, either way.
•There is no such as thing as mace or taser not working. It ALWAYS work on ANYONE.
• “DF- the RIOTERS should be shot because they are a physical threat to the lives of the store owners, policemen”
If Jersey had written “Rioters that pose a threat to the lives of store owners and policemen” than that would be a whole different story. The term rioter could refer to someone who is burning a car, smashing a window etc. Such a person could hardly be called a threat. If you want to keep them away, then use tear gas – dont just plow through a whole crowd of them (like the video YW posted) .A shot is likely to end in death.June 2, 2020 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1867154
Floyd was not high. He was drunk, so read the article.
Floyd was high on fentanyl and possibly also meth, which he had recently used.
I cannot find a source on the internet that he was involved in armed robbery; I don’t see how that bears any relevance on the subject at hand, either way.
If you haven’t found it you haven’t looked. He did five years for armed robbery, and had multiple other convictions for armed robbery and for drug offenses. And this is relevant because it goes to what kind of person he was and therefore how much sympathy we should have for him and how upset we should be that he’s dead.
There is no such as thing as mace or taser not working. It ALWAYS work on ANYONE.
Excuse me? You have no idea at all what you’re talking about. If you can say this then you’re just not a serious person.
The term rioter could refer to someone who is burning a car, smashing a window etc. Such a person could hardly be called a threat.
That is just wrong. Anyone rioting is BY DEFINITION presumed to be a threat to everyone’s safety. They do not have to literally be a threat to anyone’s actual life; the threat of serious bodily harm is enough to justify deadly force. And while in many states a mere threat to property is not enough to justify deadly force, that changes if it’s a threat to premises, e.g. by arson or looting. I’m not sure if there’s even one state where one may not use deadly force to prevent arson.
dont just plow through a whole crowd of them
This is unfortunately not the current law, but in my opinion it ought to be completely legal for anyone who is going about his legitimate business and is being deliberately obstructed to ignore the obstruction and plow through or over it, and if the obstructors are injured or killed that is their problem. I would have absolutely no moral compunctions about doing so, whether we’re talking about union pickets, people blocking highways, or lying in front of bulldozers or trains, or anything else. Of course one should first attempt to get the police to clear the obstruction, but if they are unable or unwilling to do so then force becomes necessary and should be used.June 2, 2020 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1867173
I’m not going to discuss the anti-civil rights people that we have here, but in response to whoever said that floyd was convicted of armed robbery, that was 13 years ago. And the fact that you think it’s an excuse for killing him shows how disgusting your way of thinking is. I dont have to explain why. If you cant understand, call a senior rav in your community.June 2, 2020 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1867208🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
And the fact that you think it’s an excuse for killing him shows how disgusting your way of thinking is.
DMB – oh cut it out. Ignoring the one or two irrational posters, nobody said it was an excuse to kill him. Did you really think asking people not to glirify him is the same as excusing murder? Do you know that there is documentation available online explaining how he beat a pregnant bla ck woman who he was trying to rob, pointed his gun at her stomach and threatened to shoot? Does that mean i want him murdered? Does that give me permission to be relieved there won’t be a next victim? Are you sure you may not benefit from your own shmooze with a rov of your choice?June 3, 2020 11:56 am at 11:56 am #1867427
That is “Rabbi Avi Weiss” to you and to everyone else here.June 3, 2020 11:58 am at 11:58 am #1867430
Would you apply that to rioting Charedim in Israel and America?
Be careful what you wish for. God may punish you by granting your wish.June 3, 2020 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1867433
It is absolutely horrifying that people here are justifying Floyd’s murder. At least the officer who strangled him to death is going to be prosecuted for homicide.
If an NYPD officer were to have done to a Jew what the Minneapolis officer had done to Floyd there would be Jews rioting.June 3, 2020 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1867435
Rabbi Weiss has been known to hug the officers who arrest him! And NYPD officers love him and love to do security duty at the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale. One morning we were one short of a minyan. I went outside to try to drag a Jew off the street to make a tenth; I decided to ask the officer whether he was Jewish. Surprisingly, he did identify as a Jew, but said that he wasn’t religious. We brought him inside, gave him a tallit, and counted him as the tenth! He was so interested that he showed up the next Shabbat!!!June 3, 2020 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1867437
Not one but two independent autopsy reports said that he was strangled. Where did you attend medical school and where did you do your forensic pathology fellowship that trained you to critique the other pathologists.
Your lies are not just false on their face, they are a defamation of the name of God in that they attempt to justify an injustice. They make it look like Jews are okay with racism because as you know we would never tolerate this happening to a member of our own community. You are giving the anti-Semites ammunition.June 3, 2020 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1867513
Joe -“Mr. Avi Weiss had no right to break the law when he chained himself to embassies or consulates and the other forms of civil disobedience he committed against the law.”
At least you can call it Civil Disobedience. Most demonstrations this week Aren’t CIVIL!June 3, 2020 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1867597
The way I think about it, There is nothing morally wrong with civil disobedience. But it also doesn’t usually get you what you want. I’m not justifying the looting of private property, it was definitely an evil thing to do, but do you really think the other 3 officers would’ve been charged without cop cars getting burned out?June 3, 2020 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1867550
@charlie Hall, There was a storekeeper on 13th Ave. who tried to hug the cop who was giving him the ticket and for some odd reason the cop was not impressed, I guess Weiss has more experience in hugging people.
PS I will try hugging the cop next time I am stoppedJune 3, 2020 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1867626
Civil Disobedience works. Its just very hard to implement it pn a nationwide scale without fizzing out quickly or turning violent. Imagine if the Blacks decided to shut down every interstate in the US at the same time every day for a week. For example. That can have a huge impact. But you need MLK style leadership for that kind of thing. In addition, I believe that most people protesting now that support the looting aren’t doing so because they appreciate the violence. They think looting is what the System deserves. They consider it “redistributing”, not stealing.June 3, 2020 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1867627
“Floyd was high on fentanyl and possibly also meth, which he had recently used.”
According to what I read, he was drunk on liquor.
“If you haven’t found it you haven’t looked. He did five years for armed robbery,”
I just researched , and I realized that you’re correct; he was indeed arrested 12 years ago for armed robbery. That in no way detracts from the severity of the story. The owner of a night club he used to work for, said that he was a domesticated, smiling, fellow and the cop (Chauvin) who worked as a security guard there was known as a vicious monster who used to randomly peppers pray people. He was also the subject of 18
complaints made against him from when he worked as an officer.
“You have no idea at all what you’re talking about”.
Pepper spray and mace just never goes wrong. It’s fact. Unless the button breaks right before you press, or the guy manages to snatch it from your hand, then there isn’t much that could go wrong. Mace has served the police tremendously well for years.
“the threat of serious bodily harm is enough to justify deadly force.”
Could you say that one more time? Anyone who doesn’t go near them is in no danger whatsoever. They’re not looking to hurt people, but once the police come up close, they attack. Police can stay from a nice distance and blast them away with tear gas.
Anyone who isn’t disturbed by this story, either A. Didn’t watch the video, or B. Is a diagnosed psychopath.June 3, 2020 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1867671Old Crown HeightsParticipant
Floyd was an unrepentant criminal who was committing crime up until 20 minutes before his death. Even with his dying breath he expressed no remorse for his life of crime. He should not be extolled as a hero, painted on murals as if he were a role model. He died on illegal street drugs during an episode of resisting arrest. The cops did not drag an upstanding citizen with dark skin (of which there are many) away from his productive life and “strangle” him. And what happened to statistics regarding resisting arrest and poor outcome. Isn’t picking “anecdotes” a way to get bad information?
Since I moved out of Crown Heights after our experience with “peaceful protests” of 1991, sorry if I seem insensitive to anyone on this subject.June 3, 2020 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1867692
If something traumatic that happened to you thirty years ago somehow makes you think that its okay to murder criminals in cold blood then you should probably see someone.June 3, 2020 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1867699
“ Imagine if the Blacks decided to shut down every interstate in the US at the same time every day for a week.”
Well judging by what I’ve been seeing around the country this week, there would probably be teargas shot at at about quarter of them, and then there goes your peaceful protest.June 3, 2020 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1867711
Charliehall, Crump’s hired hacks are not independent. Anyone working for Crump must be presumed to be lying.June 3, 2020 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1867712
do you really think the other 3 officers would’ve been charged without cop cars getting burned out?
Once the case was taken over by Keith X Ellison, the antisemitic, radical, cop-killer-supporting Attorney General, it was inevitable.
Ellison doesn’t even want a conviction. He wants an acquittal that will spark another round of riots, preferably right before the election. The purpose of all of this, just like the Little Saint Trayvon case, is to whip up black people and white radicals motivate them to show up at the polls and support Democrats. It’s no coincidence that this is an election year.June 3, 2020 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1867750Old Crown HeightsParticipant
100% I don’t think it was ok to kill Floyd. It was wrong. No diukim. The punishment for passing counterfeit twenties and resisting arrest, is not death by cop. But I don’t hold from glorifying Floyd as if he was some upstanding guy. I don’t see one good thing about Floyd and I really I don’t feel bad that he’s gone. He won’t be able to rob anyone else at gunpoint or pass bogus money. He was and remained a thug until his bitter end.
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