Clarification to mod and DaMoshe

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  • #2272448
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “Honestly?! Lovely that you judge yourselves favorably. That way you will always consider your way successful no matter how many children of shluchim and others go off.

    Am I the only one here who finds it frustrating to be arguing with someone who seems to be living in a virtual (un)reality?”

    But honestly I meant that the ones who go off don’t hide it with frum clothing. And therefore because secrecy isn’ta culture by us, people can always reach out for help openly

    Let me say though, I love seeing little chassidish children who have an air of innocence around them (sorry litvish nothing personal- I haven’t lived/ interacted in the yeshivish crowd yet.)

    Like I’m proud to bring my children on mivtzoim etc. and am proud of my derech, but that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate the innocent culture that the Chassidish community promotes.

    #2272449
    CS
    Participant

    Arso

    “Pray tell, what did his peers (I’m astounded that you consider any of the other talmidei Hamaggid his ‘peers’!)”

    What would you call them? Chevraya (Kadisha) means peers.

    “ believe? Could it possibly be that a person can do what they want, not daven, not learn, not do anything else you have to do, and still find salvation? Isn’t that a new testament piece of garbage?”

    Not at all. But it meant that in effect, when the chossid davened with a brenn, it was his Rebbes davening, not his own- since his whole excitement was solely based on his experience by his Rebbe, and not his own internal work. Kind of like music playing and everyone enthusiastic, but when you shut it… Of course he was doing the mitzvos, no one suggested otherwise.

    “I know that Lubavich has always claimed that this was a key difference, but I have never heard any non-Lubavich source mention this. (I should be used to that by now.)
    Can you give me a non-Lubavich source that tells us exactly in what way the Baal Hatanya’s colleagues differed to him regarding this passuk?”

    No, its pretty well known, but I haven’t yet managed to learn all the chassidus outside of Chabad so I’d have no idea where to look

    #2272450
    CS
    Participant

    MS
    Thanks for the chofetz chaim

    Yb
    “The only way forward , if so , is for the habad rabbinic leadership to open up a no holds barred discussion of their leaders personality.
    How , even a great person , who had a lot to offer [in his hasidim’s eyes], is not infallible .…”

    Have you ever seen the Rambam describe the Mitzvah of Respecting Talmidei Chachamim? How if someone rebels against his Rebbe he’s rebelling against Hashem? How about rashi- even if they (leaders) say that right I’d let/ left is right, follow them…

    Why don’t you look up those two and then come back to what the mesora is?

    #2272451
    CS
    Participant

    @mod

    “let’s just say my deletions tell a different story“

    Look, the other day on this thread when discussing this, I was thinking of an experience I had being hosted by a crude guy (not lubavitch.)

    Then I said, well I was also hosted by a crude Chabad guy once…

    Yetzer hara doesn’t differentiate. Intentional chinuch is one thing. People’s personal hurts/ stories or derogatory references to others is pretty much all the result of yetzer hara, and middos work to do- not the outcome of a specific chinuch.

    Within Chabad, there is no chinuch to hate on other yidden of any type. Although people can get defensive and put others down- myself included- that’s just because I have work to do on myself- not a chinuch directive. And I’d assume, unless shown otherwise, that it’s the same with other kreizen as well.

    #2272452
    CS
    Participant

    Ujm:

    “Are you trying to say that violating Tznius is not as bad as violating Shabbos? Do you agree that both are equally bad?”

    Not sure where this is going. I would think shabbos is worse, firstly punishment wise, and also it’s one of the three to be considered frum, basic frum. Someone who wears pants but keeps shabbos, kashrus and taharas hamishpacha is frum no? At least in a basic sense.

    If she dresses tznius but is mechallel shabbos no.

    Of course, according to Chassidus, every aveira is equally against Hashems ratzon, and also completely separates one from Hashem while actually doing it. But regarding that aspect, everything is equal

    #2272453
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @avira

    @Arso

    Just as a reminder , before you debate the habad apologists, please keep in mind the following :

    the leader of the habad hasidim gave explicit instructions to his followers. whenever you engage in debate with people of a different persuasion , you must do so with the condition that you [the follower] in your own mind give NO CREDENCE WHATSOEVER EVEN TO THE POSSIBILITY that he might have something to tell you that you previously did not know.

    That is their starting point.

    When their rebbi famously told them to phiphe on the world , it was meant to phiphe on your arguments . By the mere fact that those arguments are against habad, that ITSELF is the biggest possible refutation . All other refutations they might come up with ,are simply batel umevutal [kom lei mideraba minei] and pale in comparison .

    That explains [to me] this astonishing phenomenon of having a rational conversation with [supposedly] rational people , and there we keep on going round and round , and ,after all rationality , they seem totally oblivious to it .

    I don’t know about you , but this kept on baffling me again and again.

    They sound and seem rational and open , but on the other side seem immunized against rationality.

    I must concede – their rebbi did a good job.
    He transformed them exactly in to what he wanted them to be.
    .

    #2272456
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “I find it interesting that you were never upset about the lashon hara when CS wrote a number of times how others look at their Rebbes, how others tznius is only for show and the like. ”

    On my end, I’ve been careful not to label specific groups or individuals, and made the examples generic. Please quote the lashon hara laws violated. I could be wrong, but I didn’t think this qualified. Trying to keep to productive points as well. Obviously I could be wrong, so please do quote the relevant Halachos. Thanks!

    #2272470
    CS
    Participant

    Mods I appreciate the edits!

    “CS: So if a Chabad Shulcha regularly goes shopping in non tznius clothing, they’d be no consequences and she’d be allowed to continue representing Lubavitch? What if she regularly ate in public chicken-and-cheese sandwiches? There’s no explicit lav against eating chicken-and-cheese. What if she regularly drove to her Chabad House on Shabbos?”

    Within Chabad, there is a lot of trust given to individuals. If that trust is broken, there can be severe consequences for the individuals involved, no matter their status (I saw such a communal correction myself). But yes, unfortunately some of my non lubavitch friends tell me how they’ve been to shluchim all over the world, and how one was not ok (yes the vast vast majority are yereim ushleimim in any way.) I don’t know the individuals involved, but if I ever saw something that was a serious breach, I’d go to the head shluchim about it, as each shliach is answerable to their head shliach.

    “Where are you drawing the line? Why a bathing suit no but a short dress TMI in public when she sits, walks, edited or perhaps even when she walks has no repercussions regarding her representing Chabad?”

    Ultimately we all represent our communities, and there are over 5000 shluchim and if you look percentage wise, that will speak for itself positively and when I ask these individuals, they admit that the vast vast majority are admirable in every way. Each shliach is busy doing their own work and aren’t busy policing others. But like I said, if something egregious were witnessed, I would certainly want to talk to the head shliach.

    #2272473
    CS
    Participant

    “For apikorsim he says – tahlit sin’a sene’tim. Sin’ah without qualification.

    How that fits with contemporary habad theology and habad practise is a myStern.”

    Yb, the answer is that there is no true apikorsim today (Frierdiker Rebbe).

    Acher was a true apikoros because he knew Hashems greatness and became an apikoros anyway.

    Todays “apikorsim” are wannabes and lacking any true knowledge of Hashem and Yiddishkeit

    #2272477
    CS
    Participant

    Avira,
    “There definitely are gemaros about tznius details – Brachos 24a, kesuvos 72b, many other places.”

    Definitely, but when in high school, hearing about tznius, I wanted to look up the Halachic sources for this important topic. I innocently opened up a kitzur shulchan aruch to hilchos tznius but didn’t find what I was looking for.

    “The details of lashon hora are far lesa discussed, which precipitated the need for the chofetz chaim to delineate them”

    There is no hilchos tznius anywhere in the classic sefarim. There are clear lavin against prohibited speech with sections in mishne Torah on it, and probably later classical sefarim too (before the times of the chofetz chaim).

    #2272529
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Also, “classic” seforim that discuss the mussar elements of tznius as the mainstay of a woman include menoras hamaor, pele yoetz, and many others. Ths Gaon famously wrote that tznius is for women what Torah is for men.

    #2272520
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I hope we can avoid breaches of Tznius while speaking of Tznius

    #2272493
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    CS – no hilchos tznius in the “classic seforim”? See the sources brought in mishnah berurah 75 s”k2, and all of the sources brought in halichos bas yisroel. It’s literally all over the place.

    It’s dealt with mainly regarding ervah l’inyan krias shma and talmud Torah. That’s where the poskim discuss which parts of the body must be covered and give the details you were taught. Elbows, knees, collarbone, etc..

    That’s why thw sefer halichos bas yisroel was very important, because he compiled the poskim who discussed the details of tznius, but they were everywhere and needed little chidushim.

    Regarding lashon hora, i am referring to details. What is the definition? What are the tenoim for toeles? When can one believe LH and when can you only be concerned about it? These aee things not discussed at all in the rishonim, st least not directly. The chofetz chaim labored greatly to learn this sugya and come to conclusions in halacha.

    In tznius, there was no such need for the author of halichos bas yisroel to do that. Read the sefer, even though it was not written by a Lubavitcher..it won’t hurt your worldviiew.

    #2272486
    CS
    Participant

    Arso
    “If that’s true that’s absolutely terrible! No background check on standards, so a shliach can be a total am haaretz, or a menuval, and he is officially recognized by the Lubavich powers-that-be as a shaliach.”

    The way the shlichus system is set up is that shliach oseh shliach. The first shliach to a country is a head shliach, who Is authorized to bring down further shluchim who can also etc.

    The Rebbe never conditioned shlichus as only being for perfect people, but rather taught, as other Rebbeim did, if you know aleph teach aleph.

    A flaw which may seem significant in the general community is not that important when there are unfortunately millions of yidden who dont know basics.

    So there’s no extensive benchmarks one needs to pass, but they will have an interview with the head shliach who is considering them. Obviously if something is really off, the head shliach will see it. And can always take that person off the list if a mistake is made.

    Generally the shlichus lifestyle demands growth, or the community will not financially support the shluchim. Generally shluchim are truly admirable in every way.

    There can be some exceptions as there is to any rule.

    An interesting question would be if we can be more picky lchatchila today because the globe is covered and so maybe we can be more selective?

    An interesting point but A) many people would miss out on growth oriented lifestyle and the zechus harabbim, so is that worth it?

    B) ckids, Jewq, cteen, cyp are all relatively new and we still are far from covered

    #2272538
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    “if you know aleph teach aleph”

    Equals

    A guy with a glow in the dark pen leading a group of people on a cliff in pitch dark.

    #2272555
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Yankel, i think you’re right. I have yet to encounter a Lubavitcher who yields on any miniscule point if it has anything remotely to do with chabad. edited The debate is more of a show, because they’ve made up their mind already or closed themselves off from any other alternative.

    And they wonder when everyone else says they’re cultish.

    #2272556
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “And why is a lady who isn’t dressed tznius the biggest no no, but a man who dresses perfectly chassidish (notlubavitch) is forgiven for watching all the things he does on his devices, and is known he does, because at least he dresses the part? So alls good and his kids can join the school. But dressed imperfectly? Forget it!

    Please explain that one too”

    The lady is a חוטא ומחטיא the guy looking at things on his devices is just a חוטא

    #2272600
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    Aveira,

    Please share precisely where and in what context the “Gaon famously wrote that tznius is for women what Torah is for men”.

    #2272601

    >> “if you know aleph teach aleph”
    > cliff in pitch dark.

    I heard the same admiring expression about aleph used by R Mordechai Shapiro Z’L. Of course when appropriate. I don’t think either speaker meant anything kabbalistic or set theory of Georg Cantor.

    #2272607
    yankel berel
    Participant

    For apikorsim he says – tahlit sin’a sene’tim. Sin’ah without qualification.

    How that fits with contemporary habad theology and habad practise is a mystery.”
    ——–

    Yb, the answer is that there is no true apikorsim today (Frierdiker Rebbe).

    Acher was a true apikoros because he knew Hashems greatness and became an apikoros anyway.

    Todays “apikorsim” are wannabes and lacking any true knowledge of Hashem and Yiddishkeit
    [CS]
    =================================================

    So you disagree with sechel that tahlit hasin’a , is talking about david hamelech only, and not to us ?

    #2272610
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS
    “The only way forward , if so , is for the habad rabbinic leadership to open up a no holds barred discussion of their leaders personality.
    How , even a great person , who had a lot to offer [in his hasidim’s eyes], is not infallible .…”
    [yb]

    Have you ever seen the Rambam describe the Mitzvah of Respecting Talmidei Chachamim? How if someone rebels against his Rebbe he’s rebelling against Hashem? How about rashi- even if they (leaders) say that right I’d let/ left is right, follow them…
    [CS to yb]
    =============
    A] Rambams respecting talmidei hahamim has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the question of infallibility.
    Please CS , can you own up to this one ?

    B] “Rebelling against his rebbi” is mentioned in the context of answering she’elot without the Rebi’s permission or in the rebbi’s locality.
    [Cf Sh’A hilhot kevod rabbo]
    Not in the context of infallibility .
    Sh’A permits [even mandates] to argue on one rebbi’s halahic decisions, provided it s done respectfully.
    Please CS , can you own up to this one too ?

    C] Al yemin shehu smol veal smol shehu yemin , the rashi you mentioned is speaking about sanhedrin hagadol in yerushalayim where it is indeed prohibited to argue against .

    So – to summarize – is the leader of habad INFALLIBLE ?
    The answer is a resounding NO !!!
    .

    #2272613
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Gadol, it’s in a letter the Gaon wrote to his daughter

    #2272612
    sechel83
    Participant

    מתנבא על משיח means saying prophesy about moshiach , does not say anything about claiming a candidate, I’m saying the same way we say a candidate, you say no. Neither are prophesy.

    From the context it would seem it’s talking about prophesy about WHEN moshiach is coming, and when he doesn’t come that time, it’s a חרפה.

    Anyway a few points I saw and will comment on even though I should just say “look who’s talking about shluchim am haratzim” at least those shluchim learned semicha and rambam – kol hatorah kulah. Vda”l

    About Jews being equal and non the less mevushal wine. In Tanya this idea is explained that we see indifferent areas in halacha have different dinim i.e. shchitas mumar of mechalel shabbos you can’t eat משאכ גילוי אריות, by יהרג ואל יעבור it’s the opposite. Perek לב תניא clearly says that a rasha could have a higher neshama, perek 2 too. Perek 31 also talks about how a beinuni – someone who never does any avaira even bitul Torah should feel lower than a rasha. But as explained in perek 2 and 32 there is a level in neshama that we are all equal.
    Anyway today we start a new cycle of rambam . Did you learn kol hatorah kulah yet? Go learn and you won’t have such dumb questions.

    Why lubavitch shchita simple, the rambam says the way to come to fear hashem is thru thinking about his greatness then goes on to explain 4 perakim about מעשה בראשית ומעשה מרכבה. How are people who are against learning מעשה מרכבה going to get yiras hashem? So we eat from someone who learns these ideas. Now I don’t consider everything else traif or say everyone else is definitely not a yiras shamayim (some can have natural yiras shamayim) , but I need to be careful for myself to get from a shochet a yiras shamayim כ”ש from when

    #2272661
    CS
    Participant

    Avira, thanks for looking up about k9.

    I don’t remember exactly what I posted, but something to the effect that we had used it. When we got married, we got k9 on our laptop. We also had a security password on our phones which we knew the code for each other. There were only really two types of filters then (at least to my knowledge). Block everything but what you get allowed, and unblock everything but explicit content. We tried the former but didn’t find it practical (even cooking supper became a headache to find a recipe because I had to wait till my husband was home… also there were allowed websites that the filter kept blocking and it proved frustrating), so we opted for the latter.

    Eventually k9 didn’t work on our computer, so we kept it in a public place, The kids were too young to use it, and we used it for work purposes etc. We kept the filter on our phone, but didn’t really see any difference to our lives all along from the filter as we weren’t interested in the types of sites it was blocking.

    When WhatsApp channels came out, I didn’t like the idea of disgusting names popping up on my phone, so that gave me the push to go to tag. In the meantime, newer filters had been established that were alot smarter than what we had had before. One just came out.

    I really enjoyed the new features, especially face masking certain sites like shopping. Or being able to access/ partially access 613tube while still keeping you tube blocked. I had hated shopping Because of the pritzus, but now it’s alot better. So now I have my phone and laptop filtered through tag recently. And even though the phone one wasn’t as good and blocked apps I had never asked blocked, The enjoyment I have from having my phone filtered in a way that makes a difference overrode those annoyances, and I did get them resolved bH.

    So that’s where I’m at bH:)

    #2272659
    sechel83
    Participant

    “Yb
    “The only way forward , if so , is for the habad rabbinic leadership to open up a no holds barred discussion of their leaders personality.
    How , even a great person , who had a lot to offer [in his hasidim’s eyes], is not infallible”
    I agree the rebbe is not infallible, if you listen to recording you can hear the rebbe corrects himself, but who am I to say the rebbe made a mistake? So for me I need to follow the Mishnah כל המהרהר אחר רבו כמהרהר אחר השכינה (similar to what the rambam writes that you need to followעדים even though they can be lieing)
    There is a famous saying of the frierdiker rebbe about this topic when a chassid sees a Seder of a gadol, and sees something he doesn’t understand, he tries to break his head to understand it, a misnaged right away says that the gadol made a mistake.

    #2272655
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “I have always marveled at the way Lubavichers say, as sechel has, that all Jews are equal, and that there is no difference between a mechalel Shabbos and someone who keeps Shabbos, and the like.

    And despite that, on Shabbos in Chabad houses they either use mevushal wine, or they cover the bottle in case someone who doesn’t keep Shabbos looks at it. Still, no difference between someone who keeps Shabbos or someone who doesn’t, is there?”

    We’re all equally Hashems children, with a chelek Eloka s as a Neshama. And we are all equally responsible to keep the mitzvos to the best of our ability, so while we warmly welcome a reform rabbi to our Chabad houses, we won’t attend theirs. We warmly invite all people to join shul but we won’t take down mechitzas.

    In Chabad we learn to see the person for the Neshama they are, and not to lower our standards (which the first helps with, because they don’t truly want you to do anything wrong- it’s just shtusim from the yetzer hara or Nefesh habehamis.)

    #2272650
    CS
    Participant

    Avira,

    “Chabad say you’re a good jew if you believe in their rebbe, and keep some mitzvos.”

    I hope you’re not serious. We believe that every Jew has infinite value due to their Neshama. And the best way to express that is by doing all the mitzvos. Since there are very few we can actually fulfill now in golus, another reason to urgently cry for Moshiach.

    #2272649
    CS
    Participant

    Avira,

    “Sechel, if a jew violates a prohibition of tznius, it’s not apikorsus.

    If a chabad shliach does so in public and teaches that tznius isn’t very important, then it most certainly is apikorsus.”

    I know not addressed to me but wanted to answer: yes this is the distinction. This is exactly why the Rebbe distanced carlebach and his friend because they were compromising Halacha as shluchim, even though the Rebbe saw and encouraged many people who kept way less. No shluchim teach that it’s ok not to be tznius or anything else. There may be a very few who struggle themselves with it. If a shliach would teach such a thing about any Mitzvah, they would and have been removed

    #2272648
    CS
    Participant

    Avira,

    “The very essence of klal yisroel is tznius – this is what made bilaam turn his curse into a bracha, when he saw that the yidden had tents that were made to preserve the privacy of each family.

    It isn’t just a nice thing. And I don’t care what the Lubavitcher rebbe said about it – if he erred in it, then i can tell you exactly why he did according to reports that are known in the Yeshiva world, but i will not write about it on here because it’s extremely offensive.”

    So like I posted yesterday, there is no lubavitch mandate/ chinuch to hate on litvaks. Posts like this make me wonder whether the litvaks can claim the same?

    In any case, The Rebbe strongly promoted tznius, called for lubavitch to dress like Beis Yakov.

    This isn’t what the conversation was about. The conversation started on whether I should tell my little daughter that my friend’s Chessed would be worth much more if she dressed tznius, thus denigrating her publicly about something she wasn’t focusing on at the time, instead of appreciating the real her- her Neshama, as expressed in the Chessed she does.

    Tznius is very important and tznius dress is more emphasized by women while shmiras eynayim more by men (lo sosuru applies to women too and Tznius dress applies to men too.)

    It is one Mitzvah of the 613, and a beautiful one. Actually I don’t think it’s even one of the 613 directly (only lo sasuru) unless it falls under vhaya machanecha kadosh- which was speaking of bathroom placements.

    In any case it’s important but not the sum all of Yiddishkeit.

    When Moshe said אכן נודע הדבר, even though Shlomie bas divri had just happened, he wasn’t referring to that, he was referring to lashon hara.

    When Eliezer went to search for a wife, he didn’t inquire into her Tznius (although all imahos were), he tested her Chessed.

    So yes, Tznius dress is more emphasized by a woman, and reflects her general yiras shomayim (if not due to external factors), but it’s not the only Mitzvah that matters.

    #2272646
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    Me: “The Rebbe said that Avodas haBirurim is finished because he knew what he was talking about. He said at the same time that it should not make sense, that it must be that what Hashem wants of us now is to switch to the avoda of Welcoming Moshiach.”

    Arso: “I think I get it. The LR changed the playing field because it didn’t fit in with what he – and he alone – knew. If anyone else did something like that he would be called an apikorus, but not the LR because, according to the LR himself, he knew what he was talking about. And therefore what the RBSO has done simply makes no sense. So it’s LR -1, RBSO – 0.

    Do you even realize what you are saying and what you expect us to believe?”

    This is where you yourself show me you have no idea of what a real Rebbe is- not something I grew up with. The Rebbe spoke with ruach hakodesh on a constant basis, and the many people impacted on a personal level can and do testify to this- and not only Lubavitchers.

    Our Rebbe is an extension of Moshe Rabbeinu today (and there could be others). That should give you some idea of what a Rebbe is.

    When one of the plagues broke out, Moshe sent Aharon to stop it, and the Malach hamoves said he has a shlichus from Hashem so why would he listen to Moshe? Aharon answered that everything Moshe does is from Hashem.

    Not everything was revealed to the Rebbeim, but whatever they knew, they knew.

    #2272645
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ALL seforim that deal with Avodas Habirurim explain that once it is finished Mashiach comes immediately. Even Lubavich seforim say the same. Please enlighten us by quoting a sefer that explains that there can be a delay between the two. I admit I haven’t learnt everything, but everything I have learnt points to what I wrote, and I would like to see another viewpoint… if there is one.”

    That’s not one name or one quote. I’ve come across the concept many times in Chassidus Chabad, and the general context was that we need to finish up Avodas Habirurim during golus. I never saw it promise that the minute it’s finished, we enter Geula Shleima.

    Again I could be wrong, so I asked you to support your premise which you didn’t.

    The Rebbe was saying according to Torah logic, that should have been it, but it wasn’t and that’s not understandable. That doesn’t mean Hashem makes no sense but this fact is not understandable even according to Torah logic.

    We have a whole category of mitzvos which are beyond our logic but all have deep meaning. Shlomo HaMelech understood all but the Para Aduma.

    #2272639
    ARSo
    Participant

    Sechel: מתנבא על משיח means saying prophesy about moshiach , does not say anything about claiming a candidate, I’m saying the same way we say a candidate, you say no. Neither are prophesy.

    Are you now claiming that your rebbe did NOT claim to be misnabe about Mashiach?! Just to be clear, I didn’t quote the Sefer Chassidim in reference to you or me. I quoted it in reference to your rebbe!

    I should just say “look who’s talking about shluchim am haratzim” at least those shluchim learned semicha and rambam – kol hatorah kulah.

    1. Many, many, many of those who ‘learned’ semicha in Lubavich do NOT know what they officially learned, and have remained am haratzim. You can claim otherwise as many times as you want, but I grew up with Lubavichers in that category, and I have met tons of others. Nice people, usually, but am haratzim who call themselves rabbi because someone gave them semicha because they had to, as the LR said that everyone has to get semicha.
    2. “Kol hatorah kulah” – really?! So why did the Baal Hatanya write a new Shulchan Aruch? I know the Rambam wrote that expression about his sefer, but clearly others – Rishonim and Acharonim – did not agree with that. Clearly even the Raavad didn’t agree, or else he wouldn’t have argued with the Rambam.

    I need to be careful for myself to get from a shochet a yiras shamayim

    Typical Lubavich garbage. I know a number of Lubavicher shochtim very well. Some are takke yirei Shomayim, but others have less yiras Shomayim than I do… and that’s saying something! I won’t elaborate on how I know about their lack of yiras Shomayim, but suffice it to say that even Lubavichers in the community have agreed with me. Yet they still insist on eating only Lubavicher shechita despite their being different shechitos with shochtim whom even the Lubavichers consider yirei Shomayim.

    #2272638
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS in reply to my challenge to present a source that other chassidim explain the passuk צדיק באמונתו יחיה to mean that they rely TOTALLY on their Rebbe without putting in their own effort:
    No, its pretty well known, but I haven’t yet managed to learn all the chassidus outside of Chabad so I’d have no idea where to look

    It’s pretty well known… in Lubavich circles, because that is one of the straw men that they have created. Surely, if it’s pretty well-known you would be able to ask someone for a source.

    On my end, I’ve been careful not to label specific groups or individuals, and made the examples generic.

    Which, in a way, is worse, because your implication was that all other chassidim do these wrong things, which Lubavich allegedly does not do. Had you written about, say, Satmar, then it would have been lashon hara (actually motzi shem ra) just against them. The way you wrote it, however, it is against all other chassidim.

    Surely you would agree that when early misnagdim talked against the ‘kass’, and they referred to all chassidim, it was worse than had they talked against only one Rebbe.

    #2272635
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS, in reply to two of your questions:

    1. A worker does not have to DEMAND his wages in order for the employer to be over bal talin. It is enough if he asks to be paid.

    2. Blatant lack of tznius is worse than many other aveiros for a number of reasons. Firstly, as I have written, it is machshil many men many times a day.
    Secondly, as it is a public lack of tznius, it is befarhesia, and thus worse than an aveira done privately.
    Thirdly, when a woman who knows the halachos decides to go out in public in a non-tznius manner, she is announcing that she doesn’t care about the halacha. Someone who, for example, speaks lashon hara because he is ‘attacked’ by his yetzer hara, has not planned on doing so. I would agree that if someone stands on a street corner and attempts to stop passersby and tell them lashon hara, he would be just as bad. But that is something that generally doesn’t happen.

    #2272708
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: This is where you yourself show me you have no idea of what a real Rebbe is- not something I grew up with. The Rebbe spoke with ruach hakodesh on a constant basis, and the many people impacted on a personal level can and do testify to this- and not only Lubavitchers.

    So your answer to my claim that the LR was wrong and that he said something that if anyone else had said it you would call it apikorsus, is that the LR is right because he always is. You do realize, I hope, that that is not an acceptable reply to someone who doesn’t believe that the LR was a Nasi-Hador/Mashiach/Navi/infallible or a baal ruach hakodesh. It is merely saying, as you so often do, the LR is right, so there!

    Btw, of course I have no idea what a real Rebbe is. If I did, I would probably be a real Rebbe. But I believe I do know WHO a real Rebbe is… and who is not.

    the general context was that we need to finish up Avodas Habirurim during golus. I never saw it promise that the minute it’s finished, we enter Geula Shleima. Again I could be wrong, so I asked you to support your premise which you didn’t.

    So I googled it and it came up easily… from a Lubavicher site. And there are more than just this one. (I am loath to quote a sichah, but here it is: )
    וזלה”ק (בשיחת ש״פ נח, ד’ מר ־ חשון תשנ״ב – ספר השיחות תשנ״ב ע’ 65 ואילך): והדגשה יתירה בכהנ״ל – בנוגע לחשבון ־ צדק בשבת פרשת נח בשנה זו: ובהקדמה – שכיון שהעיד כ״ק מו”ח אדמו״ר נשיא דורנו שכבר סיימו כל עניני העבודה, כולל גם צחצוח הכפתורים, ועומדים מוכנים יעמדו הכן כולכם׳׳) לקבל פני משיח צדקנו, הרי, מסקנת החשבון – צדק (חשבון ־ צדק דייקא, חשבון אמיתי) שעושים בימינו אלו, היא, שתיכף ומיד ממש צריכה לבוא הגאולה האמיתית והשלמה בפועל ממש!
    (My apologies if it comes out a bit garbled, but that often happens when copying from a Hebrew website into an English text. At any rate, the site is called merkazato and all you have to do is google נסתיימה עבודת הבירורים.)

    I’m sure he later explains it all to HIS satisfaction, but I’m not interested in his rationalizations. I’m just responding to your request for a source.

    #2272739
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    Aveira,

    “Gadol, it’s in a letter the Gaon wrote to his daughter”.

    So it’s not brought down as Halacha in any of his writings. Please share the precise quote from the letter.

    #2272767
    sechel83
    Participant

    Seems like some have tons of טמטום המח והלב. Maybe eat only lubavitch shchita and chalov yisroel, and things will be clearer. I don’t know what to tell you.

    #2272775
    sechel83
    Participant

    Rambam kol hatorah kulah. Learn hilchos Talmud Torah of that shulchan aruch harav, true others argue, and true the rosh says you can’t pasken without learning the reasons but it’s 1) according to the rambam fulfilling the mitzvah, 2); according to the shu harav – doing the mitzvah maybe not bishlaimos, but for almost everyone today, the proper way to learn, (after learning halachos hatzrichos, one should learn rambam) see hilchos Talmud Torah,
    Whereas by learning a few mesechtos in nashim and nezikin, or even the whole Talmud bavli – no one holds you learned kol hatorah kolah (cuz you need to learn zrayim, taharos, and mechilta, sifri, sifra.)
    A already mentioned that in Torah or it says Yaakov avinu finished avodas habirurim, that you don’t have an issue with?
    When did the rebbe prophesize about moshiach ? About what ?
    Seder hachassidim? What about what the rambam writes at the end of hilchos tumas tzarass about someone who talks against a Talmud chacham? Oh so you claim the rebbe wasn’t a real Talmud chacham but you are? I bet even you agree that no one alive today comes close to the rebbes yedias hatorah. And if you don’t agree, then Listen to more sichos.

    #2272783
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel: I don’t know what to tell you.

    Never stopped you before 😉

    #2272815
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    “Seems like some have tons of טמטום המח והלב. Maybe eat only lubavitch shchita and chalov yisroel, and things will be clearer. I don’t know what to tell you.”

    This is a great example of circular thinking.

    Chabad is right, and if you question it, it must be because you’re not following chabads opinions. If you were, you’d see that chabad is right.

    When facts and sources fail, just go for the “you’re only saying this because you’re not following a Lubavitch standard”

    As it happens, i and almost all other yeshivish people are makpid on cholov Yisroel. I avoid Lubavitch shechitah however, because of the very real possibility that the shochet worships a man as god wrapped in a body.

    #2272863
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel: A already mentioned that in Torah or it says Yaakov avinu finished avodas habirurim, that you don’t have an issue with?

    Clearly your rebbe had an issue with it because he said that it makes no sense that Mashiach hasn’t come after the end of avodas habirurim. (Btw I wouldn’t mind seeing that quote from Torah Or.)

    When did the rebbe prophesize about moshiach ? About what ?

    You’re kidding, right? The entire time we have been told by all the Lubavichers on this thread that the LR is a novi and that he said that he is Mashiach so we HAVE to believe him. And now you’re asking where he prophesied?! Just google נבואת הרבי שהוא משיח or something similar, like I did, and you’ll find quite a bit of stuff.

    What about what the rambam writes at the end of hilchos tumas tzarass about someone who talks against a Talmud chacham? Oh so you claim the rebbe wasn’t a real Talmud chacham but you are?

    Was Shabsi Tzvi a talmid chochom? Do we have to know as much Torah as he does to reject him? And don’t forget that Rav Shach, lehavdil, was a talmid chochom, but that didn’t stop any Lubavicher denigrating him when he was alive. And don’t deny it because I was around then, and he was talked about as if he was the lowest of the low.

    No, I am not a talmid chochom, but I am qualified to reject someone whose agenda was to aggrandize himself as a novi, Mashiach and Nassi Hador. Someone like that, regardless of how much he knows, is by definition not a talmid chochom.

    I bet even you agree that no one alive today comes close to the rebbes yedias hatorah. And if you don’t agree, then Listen to more sichos.

    You really are brainwashed, aren’t you? I know a number of people who are BH alive today and have more yedias Hatorah than the LR had. Furthermore, their yedias Hatorah is not crooked. For example, they know that the LR’s crazy heter of mitztaer that you can fall asleep is a reason to exempt you from sleeping in the sukkah. And that is just one example.

    Finally, I WON’T beshum oifen listen to his sichos, as I find them crooked, misleading and self-aggrandizing.

    #2272934
    sechel83
    Participant

    Arso what makes you qualified?
    You know people who have more yedias hatorah then the rebbe, but you refuse to see how much yedias hatorah the rebbe had . (מצטער סוכה listen to rav bridewitz – you hold of him? He speaks about the heter. By the way you sleep in a suckah? )
    That’s called טמטום המוח

    #2272967
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel: That’s called טמטום המוח

    Of course it is. Anything that disagrees with your view on Lubavich is timtum hamo’ach, and mevazeh talmidei chachamim and anything else you decide. Regardless of the fact that you don’t (or can’t?) rebut logically or with Torah sources anything we say.

    You are starting to get on my nerves. I’m only telling you that in case that’s what you want and I therefore want to make you happy.

    #2272964
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @sechel
    What does כל המהרהר אחר רבו כמהרהר אחר השכינה have to do with infallibility ?
    Hamharher achar rabo means that he is meharhar that he made a mistake ?
    Or that he bemeizid makes things up ?

    #2273089
    sechel83
    Participant

    ומורא רבך כמורא שמים: מה מצות ה’ אינך רשאי להרהר אחריהם, ואפילו כשאין סברתך מסכמת להם. ותו שהרי גם בכל מקום הרי צריך שיהיה מורא שמים עליך, כמ”ש שויתי ה’ לנגדי תמיד. כ”כ ברבך לא תסתור דבריו, אפילו נראין דבריך מדבריו [כי”ד ר”מ ורמ”ב]. וגם בכל מקום אפילו שלא בפניו לא תחלוק עליו, רק תחשוב א”ע תמיד כיושב לפני רבך. וכדאמרינן [פסחים דנ”א ב’] אני ראיתי רבי יוחנן שאכל, אוכל בין בפניו ובין שלא בפניו. דכל המהרהר אחר רבו מהרהר אחר השכינה [כסנהדרין דק”י ע”א]. ותוכן כוונת דברי התנא, שכל המתעסק עם אדם, יחשבנו לאותו אדם
    במדריגה יותר גבוה מאשר הוא באמת, דתלמידו יחשיבו כריעו, ולריעו כרבו, ולרבו יחשיב כאילו הוא יותר מאדם:
    תפארת ישראל על משניות

    #2273186
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I wonder if ר מאיר thought אחר was doing wrong things

    כל המהרהר אחר רבו…..

    🤔

    #2273207
    ARSo
    Participant

    Wow! This is a first! A Lubavicher quoting the Tifferes Yisroel! Since when do Lubavichers hold of him?

    #2273210
    ARSo
    Participant

    I’m not sure why I’m going back to this. Maybe it is the connection to Purim that made me think about it last week.

    CS: The Rebbe was quoting, in the very early years, at a small farbrengen, what a mashpia had said regarding the Chazon Ish, that even someone such as he, would be jealous in gan Eden of a little boy learning Chassidus (I hope I’m paraphrasing correctly.) the context was the greatness of Chassidus, not denigrating misnagdim.
    . . .
    This reminds me of another Chassidishe teaching that the loftiest Malach would give up everything for a single amen Yehei Shmei Rabba by a yid.

    (I don’t know whether that ‘teaching’ is factual, but I’ll run with it anyway.) The two are not comparable. A Malach has no bechira, so he is therefore perfect despite being willing to ‘give up everything…’. The Chazon Ish was human with a bechirah, and therefore saying that he is jealous in Gan Eden is indeed denigrating.

    Now, if the Rebbe treated others outside lubavitch, disdainfully in general…

    True he didn’t treat others outside Lubavich disdainfully, but he did treat other shitos disdainfully. I can’t be bothered now bringing proofs, but they are numerous.

    #2273229
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @arso
    They do not ‘hold’ of the tiferes yisrael.

    Rather , They are willing to ‘use’ the tiferes yisrael.

    #2273324
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    The chazon ish learned kol hatorah kulah, including kabalah, which is what chasidus aims to achieve.

    He’s not jealous of a man who learned kabalah that was made accessible to a regular person, and certainly not of a child who mouths the words of ideas he has absolutely no shaychus with. For torah she baal peh, you need to understand what you’re learning for it to be a kiyum mitzvah.

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