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MAILBAG: Trump’s Deportation Plans Would Devastate Jewish Households, Businesses, And Communities
I love how people can judge other people when they were never in their shoes
There are certain comments that said basically “well now you will stop being lazy and do the work yourself”
There are numerous reasons people NEED a cleaning lady
Here are just a few
1) she has a job and is tired at the end of the day
2)Coffee, the practice seems to be widespread way above special circumstances. And in my neighborhood, people who have difficulties get help from Jewish teens.
I read many comments claiming that the fact that Orthodox Jews pay their cleaning help below minimum wage is a sign of disrespect. This is false. The least people can get help for is 18/hr. This shows that people will hate on a community based on verifiably untrue assumptions.
Can’t you hire someone who is in the US legally?
I see you gave up after one reason…
You could give 10 million reasons why people might need a cleaning lady; that’s not the issue. None of those justify harboring an illegal. It’s especially hypocritical given that frumkeit has basically been one big Trump rally over the past year.
I would sincerely hope that the writer of the op ed was a democrat, and not someone who claims to support border security, but then his respect for the law ends when his desire to exploit people for cheap labor begins.
Interjection: The op ed was about hiring illegals. The whole point of hiring illegals is to pay them under minimum wage. If we were talking about people who paid the going rate, they would be hiring real Americans. Nobody is saying the entire community is guilty of this, but that particular op ed was in fact talking about that segment of the community.
interjection, wages depend on the market conditions – both supply and demand. I personally saw years ago in midwest, a small group of very “observant” families hiring russian (Jewish) immigrants for way below minimal wage. Those ladies probably would not have any employment otherwise, but it still looked gross.
In your current case, first there is very low unemployment right now, and it may be that you live in a high-cost area, and it maybe that you live in an area with many people like you who are looking to hire someone, so demand is high.
Putting aside dina d’malchuso and current hot politics. What is the obligation here? On one hand, in classicil halocha, we prefer money to stay in Jewish hands, idolaters are not going to do anything good with it. So, when, say, two Jews are trying to get business from a poretz, you are forbidden to try to lure the customer away by lowering your prices. But, on the other hand, here we have poor people who came here to feed their families and to send money back to their relatives. Maybe we should pay them same, or almost same, you would pay a legal resident.
can you be both for protecting the borders and then show chessed and hire those who are here and do honest work?
2 arguments for locking the borders:
1) the country wants a say in who we are letting in – more professionals/less criminals
2) we want less immigrants in general1st argument does not contradict hiring those who came thru – you are essentially doing the vetting. You are not supporting criminals and those who do not want to work, you presumably find nice people that you let into your house.
I think what Coffee Addict is saying is, forget about the article (the letter writer is wrong) but some (most?) of the comments were extremely uncalled for and downright mean.
I live in a typical heimish neighborhood in the tristate area. Most people I know that take the minimum cleaning help and their kids are not being raised by the cleaning ladies.
Note: a holocaust survivor I know, that has 12 children and believe me her children are not spoiled, always says- 1 thing I regret when raising children is not taking more cleaning help, I would have been a calmer, better mother”
And if anyone knows of a legal cleaning lady in my area, I am happy to pay the going rate (despite the fact that I am a middle income family with no govt programs, struggling to make ends meet) and don’t tell me to give up my cleaning help, you don’t know my life circumstances and can’t judge my needs.And on an ironic note- it is illegal to ask when hiring is she/he is an illegal immigrant.
You don’t need to ask someone whether they are illegal, you simply ask for ssn and everify. As an accountant you should know how to hire people legally
it’s not illegal to ask if they are legally allowed to work in the US.
I’ll bet the person asking why you can’t just hire legal doesn’t regularly hire cleaners. Or they would know how much harder it is.
People pay above minimum wage. Hiring illegal immigrants doesn’t mean you pay below minimum wage, that is not the point. The point is to find someone willing to come regularly for a price (above minimum wage) that won’t bankrupt you.
Lots of people need cleaning help, I’ll bet the ones saying those who do are lazy aren’t actually working mothers with a bunch of kids. Probably more likely to be bored guys trolling who don’t know what it is to be a working mother with kids.
“can you be both for protecting the borders and then show chessed and hire those who are here and do honest work?”
No, absolutely not.“You are not supporting criminals”
Illegal immigration is a crime. There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant who isn’t a criminal. Yes, you are supporting criminals if you harbor illegals; you just happen to be okay with the crime so you wish to pretend otherwise.When a drug addict buys cocaine from an illegal working for a cartel, they’re also doing their own “vetting.” They just have different standards than you regarding what is and isn’t okay. They need their fix just like you need your cheap cleaning lady. There’s a reason it isn’t just left up to the individual to do their own heimish vetting process.
This is sort of a gray area, as many people in the country hire such aid. Still, as religious Jews live as a homogeneous community, this becomes visible to the outsiders. Possibly there is a whatsapp group for migrants directing them to Jewish towns for employment and maybe exploitation by people who move them. Probably, tracked by ICE also.
Why not start with a position: I want to live Torah-true life without doing questionable thing, and after that consider your other option. Most people spend so much to maintain Torah lifestyle – food, housing, schools, hats, why not start with the basics first?
Neville > llegal immigration is a crime.
I think we need to be humane towards such people, especially when they are coming to work. Of course, concentration of such illegals inevitably creates crime around them – people who smuggle them, house them, etc.
@anom
Wrong, wrong, wrong!When hiring you are required to have the employee fll out a W-9 which requires providing you (the employer) with the listed forms of ID showing eligibility to work; such as birth certificate, passport, drivers license, social security card, etc.
You sign that you have examined these ids and person complies with the law and keep copies of there ids,
You also have to have them fill out a W-4 for tax withholding. You must withhold applicable taxes and Social Security and Medicare and file tax returns remitting the withholding and your employer’s obligations as well.Follow the law!
“This is sort of a gray area”
No it isn’t. If you or I were immigrating to America we would follow the process and it would be black and white. It’s only “gray” to those who want to be criminals and cut the line, and no self-respecting American should have sympathy or want to do “chesed” for them.“as many people in the country hire such aid”
They should all be prosecuted, then we wouldn’t have this crisis.“Why not start with a position”
Why not start with the position that people have been touting since 2016 with their Trump antics? If people want to be liberal and pro-open-boarders, that’s another story. They’re entitled to their opinion, but don’t pretend to be hardliners of immigration then cave the second you might have to pay a couple of dollars more to employ a real American instead of giving our jobs away to criminals.What bewilders me is that I know from other posts that many of you are big Trump fans, yet you are shocked to see the rhetoric of someone who actually has conservative opinions on immigration.
JR87: The minimum wage thing really isn’t even the main point. The point is that they’re paying below the true going rate, which should be calculated by the supply and demand of legal, tax-paying labor, not criminals. If I were willing to rob my local grocery store, does that mean the going rate of bread is now $0? What illegals are willing to accept is irrelevant to the non-criminal economy. That fact that you like breaking this particular law does not change that reality.
Re what the government wants:
If a cleaner is an independent contractor you aren’t obligated to find out their citizenship. The definition of independent contractor is not given, but some of it is that they control their hours and get paid by the job instead of by the hour. So if someone hires a cleaner for specific jobs it’s legal regardless.
NYC government WANTS these immigrants to find gainful employment, you just have to listen to them, they don’t want these illegals just loitering around with no food or money.
Jaywalking was illegal until recently. It still is in cities other than NY. Would anyone argue that someone jaywalking is like a drug addict or violating the Torah? If so, shkoach, you’re not contradicting yourself. Otherwise you are.
I don’t really have much of an opinion, as I have never been able to afford cleaning help.
I just want to point out that your cleaning help is probably not at the top of the list for deportation.
Homan has indicated that they will start with those who have pending deportation orders followed by those who have a history of violent crime either here or in their home country.
It’s unlikely your cleaning help is being deported anytime soon, and if they are on the list, you probably don’t want them around your house anyways.
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