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how about providing a source for your opinion on this chiyuv?
“If you learn the Torah and review it with a friend, you’ll be a talmid chacham someday”.
Seriously, the Gemarah you quoted (Brachos 47B) brings the concept of a “Kusi Chaver”, so the bar is not so high.
I’m still waiting for a better definition from you regarding “Kedusha VTahara”, thanks.
There is a chiyuv to learn Torah, but I cannot see there being a chiyuv to be a talmid chochom, because not everyone is CAPABLE of being a talmid chochom.
GAW, I certainly hope that neither I, nor the people I love use YOUR doctors. Furthermore, if most of our Jewish doctors follow your philosophy then from now on, I will seek out goyish doctors so I know they will be available when I or my loved ones get sick. Because WE don’t normally get ill according to a time clock or a schedule.
aries, I’m not sure if you are serious or not.
I didn’t say doctors, I said surgeons. (work in hospital, usually can schedule, if not will operate as an emergency)
But if that’s what you want, Kol Hakavod. I will not bother you further about it.
Gavra, if you look carefully in that gemora, you’ll see seven opinions brought down, then Amar Rav Huna Halacha K’Acheirim, that we pasken that afilu koro v’ shono v’lo shimesh talmidei chachomim, if he didn’t learn shas beiyun he’s not a talmid chochom. And rescue, what marei mekomos you want? Look in Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deyah Hil;chos Talmud Torah (i think #242 or somewhere around).
An important and perhaps not as addressed issue is this: How will it affect the girls they will one day marry? Husband’s actually have an obligation to support their wives and families; if you find a girl that’s willing to support that’s wonderful, but unfortunately many girls are made to feel awful f they do not choose a Kollel lifestyle. When I was in seminary my class and a teacher had a volatile argument about this: The teacher seemed to be of the opinion that anyone not in Kollel was inferior. While I agree that learning in Kollel is a great and admirable (and I guess you could say ‘superior’ choice), that does not make people *not* in Kollel inferior! And yet the when I argued, metaphorically, that although a plumber (“working boy”) may not be as prestigious as a lawyer (“learner”) both are still very necessary, the teacher actually said: “Ah, but you don’t respect the plumber!” Wrong. His job, perhaps not. Him as a person? Well, I should think that depends on the person!! Let us not forget that a husband’s obligation in supporting his family is stipulated in the Kesuba, that many Gedolim of years past worked to support, and that is so important not to browbeat or use the Shidduch specter to terrify people into a lifestyle they are not cut out for. It’s not a mitzvah to be Kollel and miserable. It is to follow the Torah and be happy. Let’s do the math, hmmm?
Takeadeepbreath,sems were different in my time….
Takeadeepbreath, I agree with you.
The Torah is made for every Jew. It does not force anyone into a one-size-fits-lifestyle.
kvod hatorah – You are absolutely correct. No one should be taken away from the Gemorah. NO ONE. Anyone who someone (anyone) is trying to shlep away from the Gemorah, should immediately speak to his Rosh Yeshiva for an eitza. And surely he will be matzliach in learning.
Chazak V’amatz. Have courage, do what’s right, and do not fear or pay any heed to the naysayers.
I’m not a physician; I have a PhD in biostatistics. But I teach future physicians and married a physician.
It is not realistic today for most physicians to work part time, at least in the US. The first problem is that medical school tuition is outrageously high and increasing every year; my wife will be paying off her medical school debts with her social security checks. The second problem is that residency training requires 80 hour weeks even in the relatively less abusive residency programs, even longer in others. The third is that malpractice insurance rates are the same no matter how few or many patients you see, for example, a neurosurgeon practicing in the Bronx has to pay $267,000 annually for malpractice insurance before seeing his first patient. The fourth is that if medical schools and residency programs get wind of the fact that frum Jews plan to have part time careers in large numbers, that will be the end of frum Jews getting into medical school as there are far more qualified people wanting to get into medical school in the US than there are spaces available.
People should not think of medicine as a career alternative unless they are completely dedicated to the lifestyle. But what a lifestyle! You get to perform mitzvot every day of your professional life!!! No wonder Jews have been always been attracted to it.
My wife is a rare physician who has been able to work out what is basically a 40 hour a week schedule with her employer. We are very happy about that.
kvod hatorah,
I think it is wrong to force anyone to go to college, just as it is wrong to deny anyone that opportunity if that is right for them. And delaying college is not a bad thing, especially for frum Jews; every Jew I’ve found who went to university prior to the 19th century had extensive Torah education and many of the most famous examples had already earned semichah. I used to teach a lot of 19 and 20 year old undergrduates and many were frankly wasting their parents’ money. And one can do well with delayed education. My wife was 30 when she earned her undergraduate degree, 40 when she completed medical school; I was 37 when I earned my doctorate.
Dr. Hall, what are the logistics inherent in delaying education, unless one delays marriage too?
tzippi, Marriage should never (as a general rule) be delayed. That’s not me saying that, but Chazal.
Just like there are other things that had their metzious change since the time of chazal, maybe this is one of them also. In the time of chazal there was no need for education well into someones 20’s, so maybe they would think differently now?
Considering the success of those who do marry young today, comparatively to those who marry a little bit older, I would say it is highly recommended and to be strongly encouraged – just as Chazal and the Gedolim of our own generation recommend.
rescue37:
Aderaba, I would think with all the programs out there one can live without ever working, so there should be no heter to earn a parnassah.
Gavra, the Kesubah treats work as an obligation, and you treat work as something that needs a special heter.
Josh31:
Amen, doesn’t everyone else too?
Gavra@WORK
tzippi,
I’m not sure I understand your question.
Dr. Hall: you say that there are a lot of 20ish kids who shouldn’t be in school yet, and make the case for going to school when older. How practical is that? A lot of kids these days ARE deferring school, for when they’re married with a few kids, etc. The logistics can get pretty hairy.
Kvod hatorah: you might be right in that case, but parents not only have a right to their opinions, they may be abdicating their responsibilities if they don’t voice them. They, better than anyone, may know their kids, may know which ones can juggle, which can’t, what their thresholds are, who’s going to be around to pick up the pieces if the kids bite off more they can chew, etc.
Kvod Hatorah,
Living off government handouts and worrying (and even getting sick or hypertension) where your next emergency expense or upcomming bar mitzvah or wedding is going to be paid from is not called financially surviving. having to juggle loans from gemachs and such is not called financially surviving. Having to go collect from door to door is not called financially surviving. Relying that there will be substantial tuition help for school or camp is not called financially surviving. Living off forced support (it may be willing, but it is still forced) is not called financially surviving. Not being able to buy life insurance and relying on collection letters or ponzi scheme life insurance setups is not called financially surving. It is called barely getting by and surviving, but definitely not financialy surviving.
“There are thousands that dont work and learn all day and financially survive obviously we are talking about such people but some paremts need thrir kids ro be rich and to afford all the things they would want when all the child wants is too learn who gave the parnts the right to have an opion in such a case~! “
The people you describe are not surviving, they are relying upon everyone else (including your and my tax dollars and tzedaka gelt) to pick up their tabs. Whether it is Section 8 or Food Stamps, or Welfare, or Tomchei Shabbos, SOMEONE has to pay for it.
Suppose ALL those other people who are paying for these kids’ expenses suddenly decided they, too, wanted to do nothing all day but sit and learn? What if all the fathers decided collectively, “We paid our dues, we brought up our kids, now it is our turn to relax in the Beis Medrash and enjoy learning all day?” (something which they could not do when they were busy providing for their families).
And what if the mothers who already raised THEIR own children, did NOT want the achrayus of having to commit to raising their grandchildren during the day while their daughters go out to work to support their husbands who don’t want to go out and work for a living, so they can sit and learn? This becomes very old very fast for many young women, who become disillusioned with the whole “eishes chayil” idea. I speak to a lot of young women, several of whom are now divorced, btw, and they all say the same thing: “In seminary, they never told us it would be like THIS!”
“Dr. Hall: you say that there are a lot of 20ish kids who shouldn’t be in school yet, and make the case for going to school when older. How practical is that? A lot of kids these days ARE deferring school, for when they’re married with a few kids, etc. The logistics can get pretty hairy.”
Thanks. Great question. I will respond after I have time to think about this, hopefully tomorrow.
BSD
1) No ben Torah should be exposed to the atmosphere of a secular college or the kefira taught there. If it is necessary for parnosso then find a college that accepts credits from yeshiva (or a law school that accepts yeshiva as an undergrad) and take what is necessary and nothing else.
2) Tradtional professions are overcrowded because they have always represented “the easy way out”.
3) I have never suffered for want of a doctor the way I have been inconvenienced for want of a competent plumber. Plumbing and electrical are very lucrative trades, and provide a more than respectable parnosso. What is more, with more and more computerization of heating and cooling systems, a Yiddishe kop is necessary for understanding how to properly maintain and install them especially in the top end of HVAC contracting which is very proftable. Also time for us to have our own mechanics; anyone who has seen the kinds of pictures that goyishe mechanics are known for displaying know what I mean (and the auto mechanics and body shop guys who are refugees from the Zionist paradise or from the FSU and put on yarmulkes to get our business are frankly worse than the non-Jews and are renowned for cheating and lack of skill).
Oomis: “Suppose ALL those other people who are paying for these kids’ expenses suddenly decided they, too, wanted to do nothing all day but sit and learn? What if all the fathers decided collectively, “We paid our dues, we brought up our kids, now it is our turn to relax in the Beis Medrash and enjoy learning all day?””
Had to repeat this, as I know of at least one family member who has done this (as soon as the children were out of the house), and Bezras Hashem, I should be so lucky as well (besides my current sedorim).
See my comment in the other “learning” thread to SJS about high school children not being able to handle the truth.
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