July 7, 2010 6:04 am at 6:04 am #689637
The apikorsus and licentiousness on campuses today in 2010 is far greater than in 1930 to the point they aren’t even comparable. (Including the apikorsus at YU, such as the toeiva’niks gatherings, the bales of Apikorsus to be found in their library, ideas espoused even in the Limudei Kodesh courses that are against the Torah, never mind secular courses where clear anti-Torah ideas and ideals are taught by teachers who have all but carte blanche to say whatever they want, etc.) Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L said many times that he will not enter YU because it is bad. His son, Rav Schneur ZT’L, followed suit.
Another point why attending modern universities ought give one deep pause if they value their Yiddishkeit and frumkeit and wish to keep it.
The Rama 246:4 rules explicitly that it is absolutely prohibited according to Halachah to engage in a curriculum of secular studies. To read secular studies now and then, is permitted, he says. The Birkas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27 p.42) and Kovetz Shiurim II:47 rules in accordance with this Rema.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said that the confusion in Germany happened when people thought, mistakenly, that by Jews possessing secular knowledge the Goyim will hate them less. This caused a “negiyos” – a vested interest – that caused the German Jews to desire that their rabbis have a secular education as well.
Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L also denounced college in a Teshuva, and in a famous speech delivered to his students, published under the title “The Counsel of the Wicked” (Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah, New York, 1978). There he reiterates that everyone has an obligation to become great in Torah, we should not care so much about Cadillac’s (yes, this was said in the “olden days”), and that learning Torah is what we should be pursuing, not secular stuff. He says in America you do not need college to make a Parnassa, and we should be willing to live on little, not a lot, for the sake of Torah, and that R. Nehuray’s statement of abandoning all skills in favor of Torah applies all that more today that we live in a country where you can make a parnassa without college, with no miracles needed.
The Chasam Sofer in Parsha Beshalach states clearly that certain secular knowledge is useful for learning certain Torah topics, such as cow anatomy being useful for shechitah, and arithmetic for Eruvin and Sukkah. But that before we embark on obtaining secular knowledge – and of course that means only to the extent that it is useful for our Torah studies – we must first fill ourselves with Torah-only knowledge. After we are strong in Torah, only then can we move to acquire the useful secular knowledge that we need for our Torah studies.
He quotes the Rambam, who he describes as “the father of philosophy” in our religion, in Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah, stating that a person may not learn philosophy until after he has “filled his stomach” with Shas and Poskim, which are the things, and only the things, that bring us Olam Habah. Then he quotes the Rashba, saying that there is a cherem against learning any secular studies if you are under age 25!July 7, 2010 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #689638
nicely said kashaJuly 7, 2010 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #689639charliehallParticipant
“The apikorsus and licentiousness on campuses today in 2010 is far greater than in 1930 to the point they aren’t even comparable.”
Not true. Regarding ideas contrary to Torah, things are worse now. Ayn Rand had not written her awful hedonistic stuff yet. Post-modernism didn’t exist yet. And licentiousness was common hundreds of years ago, as the lyrics to the song “Gaudeamus Igitur” and many first hand accounts prove.
I teach at a division of YU. We have many frum students who learn every spare moment. We have many minyanim and shiurim from totally from rabbonim — and from each other. Yes, there is stuff that is non-tzniudnik in the classes. You would not want a doctor who doesn’t know the non-tzniudnik stuff; tzniut is trumped by pikuach nefesh. And Torah hashkafot that differ from yours are not “against the Torah”.
And once again you did not address a question I posed: Are there any gedolim who actually attended college who addressed issues such as these? Since you haven’t presented any, I would have to assume you don’t know of any.
Regarding the Rema’s prohibiting a secular course of study, obviously Rambam and Sforno did not follow that, and number of Jews attending university increased after the Rema’s death. Among them were Rabbi Joseph DelMedigo, who studied with none other than Galileo!. And Rav Hirsch, Rav Hildesheimer, Rav Herzog, and Rav Soloveitchik all entered university prior to age 25. (All had earned semicha prior to entering university.) You are cherrypicking sources without acknowledging that those opinions were not accepted as halachah on all of klal Yisrael.
Finally, while you can indeed identify the rare individual who becomes wealthy with little or no formal education, that is becoming more and more rare in these days. There are almost no professions or trades today in which one can earn sufficient parnassah to raise a Jewish family in the diaspora without at least some secular education.July 7, 2010 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #689640
Learning is better than working. If one can learn all day, then college is bitul Torah. However, learning is only shayach for people who can do the following: 1) learn every minute of every seder that they are supposed to (any minute in seder not learning is geneivah) 2) they must be able to support the family at their level with the money they bring in (whether that’s in addition to the wife working, having a wealthy father or father in law, or a family with really really low physical standards- a person should not learn full time at the expense of the physical and psychological well-being of his family). Once you have to get a job, then one should put in the hishtadlus that he needs to be prepared in such a way that he has time to learn and enough money to support his family at their level. If you can do that without college… great! If you need college, that’s also great!
Additionally, I assume being a wordly person is a positive thing (as long as this worldly knowledge comes at the expense of time that would be wasted, not Talmud Torah). Understanding G-d’s wisdom in science, math, and history, understanding how the world works in terms of politics and economics, and knowing skills to succeed in general like how to write and speak are positive things to know.July 7, 2010 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #689641
The Rambam writes that a “working person” is someone who learns 8 hours a day and works 3. Not works 9am to 5pm.
I love how this little nugget gets trotted out every now and again when it’s completely irrelevant to today’s professional world.
The ways in which we do business (which includes holding a job) are much different today than they were in the Rambam’s time. There are very few jobs available for people to work only three hours a day and those jobs are generally not the type at which you can make a living doing that and nothing else.
The WolfJuly 7, 2010 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #689642
“learning is only shayach for people who can do the following: 1) learn every minute of every seder that they are supposed to (any minute in seder not learning is geneivah)”
simcha613: You can equally posit, for you to remain consistent in your position (to reverse your comment), that…
Working is only shayach for people who can work every minute of all working hours that they are supposed to (any minute during working hours not working is geneivah.)July 7, 2010 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #689643
Just to clarify, my comment about not learning being geneivah is only when one is being supported by a kollel. If one is being supported independently, then obviously every minute wasted is bitul Torah, but it’s just as much bitul Torah as a person who works and wouldn’t qualify as geneivah.July 7, 2010 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #689644
“this little nugget gets trotted out every now and again when it’s completely irrelevant to today’s professional world.”
“this little nugget” is an actual Rambam, and hardly “completely irrelevant”.
Any other “little nuggets” you can think of that are “completely irrelevant”? My friend prints Seforim. Perhaps I can suggest all those “little nuggets” in Rambam that are “completely irrelevant to today’s professional world” be expunged from future prints.July 7, 2010 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #689645
I am going to go back to the original question even though this whole discussion is very interesting.
Parents of “boys to men” are obligated to train them to make a parnasah. This is their obligation in order for these future husbands and fathers to support their own families. Furthermore, when they do get married, they are committing themselves in their “Kesuba” to support their wives in the way and manner they are accustomed to. This is based on the fact that it is quoted in the Gemara that it is a “mitzvah” to be mepharnes one’s own family.
So the parent “forcing” their son to go to college is a decision a parent makes because they feel it is the best thing for their child and/or their family/financial situation and that is the only way one can look at it. It is not up to anyone else to question it. However, if one wants to ask whether “they” should go to college all this discussion is very helpful and interesting.
The clarity in which it was explained the difference of taking tzedaka or rather giving tzedaka for aniyim or giving tzedaka to support learning is very important. So much so because today, we are almost forced to give tzedaka especially for E”Y because the children of these kollel families are starving and living in poverty, etc. Now this bears a true discussion, which someone did ask in conjunction with the decision to learn only and not work. If one decides to take it upon themselves to live the kollel life and not bring in parnassa rather depend on others to support their learning and will suffer whatever it takes to continue learning, do they have the right to force their children to do the same? Money sent to the yeshiva is supporting the learning. Money sent to the neighborhood is supporting the children. So then is tzedaka supporting his learning?July 7, 2010 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #689646
Wolf & Kasha:
Back to the point, what do you think the Bochur should do in this situation?
(as for college, Ein Lo Ela Mekomo V’Shayto)July 7, 2010 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #689647
Instead of focusing on the choice of phrase, how about making it relevant? Do you think that today’s job market is the same as it was in the Rambam’s time? How does one earn a living in today’s world working only three hours a day — and how can be scaled to meet the needs of the general populace?
The WolfJuly 7, 2010 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #689648
“So the parent “forcing” their son to go to college is a decision a parent makes because they feel it is the best thing for their child”
I then suppose you would equally posit that the parent “forcing” their son to go to Beis Medrash is a decision a parent makes because they feel it is the best thing for their child.
“So then is tzedaka supporting his learning?”
We’ve had a long discussion on this earlier on the thread (see my previous comments), but it is worth noting that even IF it is the Rema and Shach says you are allowed to live off tzedaka in order to learn.July 7, 2010 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #689649yitzy99Member
It’s pretty amazing that after thousands of years of history we are debating whether a man’s place is in the work force or the Bais Medrash. There doesn’t seem to be controversy here over the role of women or infants. Women belong in the work place and infants in day care.July 7, 2010 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #689650
Back to the point, what do you think the Bochur should do in this situation?
Forgive me, but this conversation (as many in the CR do) has wandered all over the place. Which bochur?
The WolfJuly 7, 2010 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #689651myfriendMember
yitzy99: A woman’s place is in the home.July 7, 2010 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #689652
yitzy99: A woman’s place is in the home.
Not gonna do it. Nope. Too easy. Must…. resist….. 🙂
The WolfJuly 7, 2010 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #689653
aries2756: A parent can only try so hard. After a certain point, a child has to be allowed to make their own choices, even if that means they will have to live with them for the rest of their lives (for good or bad).July 7, 2010 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #689654
Wolf: The original bochur who wants to learn while his parents want him to go to college.
Resistance is futile.July 7, 2010 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #689655
Well a woman’s place is in the home and a man’s place is in the Beis Medrash. So no one will eat 🙂
As a parent, if my child wanted to learn and I didn’t want them to, I would explain that they have to figure out:
1) How to support themselves (including paying for Beis Medrash and living expensese)
2) If they plan to get married, how are they going to support a wife and family? I would go over serious numbers with them – rent, food, utilities, tuition etc.
3) Discuss a compromise – like half day learning, half day college and offer to pay for both (if I could afford to) so that we are sort of both getting our way.
As a parent, its important for me to look out for my childrens long term goals. But I also need to be cognisant of their personal needs. But I do not need to pay for them.July 7, 2010 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #689656
Wolf: The original bochur who wants to learn while his parents want him to go to college.
The description given is really too sparse to make a specific answer.
It may well be that he is better suited to learning and therefore should not go to college. It’s also possible that he might be the type to be able to properly synthesize a secular studies program and full time learning. It may also be that his parents want him to go to college just so that it will look good on them. That, obviously is the wrong approach to take.
Without knowing the person, his strengths, weaknesses and propensities, I can’t really answer the question.
My advice would be to consult with a rav or a mentor who knows both the bachur and the parents as to the proper path to take.
The WolfJuly 7, 2010 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #689657
“Working is only shayach for people who can work every minute of all working hours that they are supposed to (any minute during working hours not working is geneivah.)”
That is true… a person is not allowed to work in a place where it is inevitable he will violate geneivah. However, there is much more flexibility when it comes to careers. Some have longer hours, some have shorter hours. Some don’t have hours requirements but you have to make a certain amount sales or money, or have to produce a certain amount of goods. Sometimes a person is self employed, or the management monitors how he uses his time and any time he wastes is his lost money and is not geneivah. I’m sure there are many other situations as well. A person must choose a job or career in which it’s realistic that he will not violate geneivah.
Kollel is usually a lot more straightforward. It’s 2 or 3 sedarim of a few hours each, and a person must learn that entire time… no breaks, that’s what bein hasedarim is for (obviously once in a while for something extraordinary is not (in my opinion) geneivah, though it should be discussed with the people giving him the paycheck). Additionally, sechar is based on effort so no matter how much or how little one learns, if one is being supported, he must learn the entire time on a regular basis. If a person cannot do that, just like any other job, if one cannot fulfill his duties, should not choose that profession.July 7, 2010 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #689658
Similarly, there is much flexibility when it comes to Kollel. Some Kollels have longer hours, some have shorter hours. Some even might not have hours, but you have to learn a certain number of hours. Sometimes a person learns at home, or the Rosh Kollel monitors how he uses his time. I’m sure there are many other situations as well. A person must choose a Kollel in which it’s realistic that he will not violate geneivah.
Work is usually a lot more straightforward. It’s 8 hours a day – sometimes required to be 9 to 5, and a person must work that entire time, with maybe a half hour break at a specific time – otherwise that’s what weekends are for (obviously once in a while for something extraordinary is not (in my opinion) geneivah, though it should be discussed with the people giving him the paycheck). Additionally, work is based on results so no matter how much or how little one works, if one is being paid, he must work the entire time until he meets his work goals specified by his employer on a regular basis. If a person cannot do that, just like any other job, if one cannot fulfill his duties, should not choose that profession.July 7, 2010 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #689659
I think that in kollel its a little bit different. I think its assur to receive payment for limud hatorah. I think kollels officiall pay for your time spent in the kollel and not for your actual limud. Similarly I think rebbeim are payed for watching the kids as opposed to teaching them.
I could be wrong on this though, its just what I’ve always heard.
But it comes out that its harder to ganiv money from the kollel by not learning.July 7, 2010 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #689660
so we agree, a person cannot work or learn in an environment where he can not handle the responsibilities and will succumb to geneivah.
In addition, all things being equal, learning is a much better “career” than working. Working takes you through this world, learning to the next. But that only works if learning can take you (and your family) through this world. A husband is obligated to support his wife and family on their level. Unfortunately (or fortunately) learning in kollel pays extremely little. It doesn’t matter how much you love learning, or how much time you’re willing to spend on it, or the fact that learning is objectively the most productive career. If your wife and kids are physically and psychologically suffering (chas veshalom), you cannot do it. You must find yourself a job that pays more (obviously one that you can do and will not violate geneivah while doing it)July 7, 2010 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #689661
Derech- I was always under the impression that learning in kollel is a Yisachar-Zevulon arrangement. A person pays for learning and he receives a portion (half or a quarter… I don’t really know) of that sechar limud, even though he (the one paying) hasn’t learned a word. Therefore, any time wasted is less sechar for the supporter and a misuse of his money.July 7, 2010 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #689662
One thing I am, admittedly intuitively, confident of. There is a lot lot lot more unproductive freeloading loafers who sit behind a desk in an office offloading their responsibilities to colleagues (and anyone who worked in a large organization/company as I have sees them all the time — and amazingly getting away with it), then their are people in Kollel not trying to learn their best. I am, again intuitively AND from observation, confident there are very very few of the latter especially compared to the former.
So lets direct the bulk of our criticism to the freeloaders in the office, rather than the constant criticism of our holiest Torah learners, while you hear extremely little criticism – comparatively – in our circles of the former.July 7, 2010 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #689663apushatayidParticipant
“2. In any event, a Yisoschor-Zevulin relationship is NOT tzedakah anyways — its an equal business partnership between the Yisoschor (i.e. Kollel learners) and Zevulin.”
From where do todays Zevuluns/the supporters of mosdos like BMG, Mir, Ponovezh and so on get the funds to create this partnership? How many tailors and shoemakers are todays Zevuluns.July 7, 2010 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #689664
I don’t mean to criticize those who learn. I am just talking about people who cannot fulfill the responsibilities of their jobs. I don’t know who violates geneivah on a general level more, the workers or the learners (I would hope the workers as you said). However, I believe those who violate geneievah while learning in kollel are people who want to learn but physically and mentally cannot. Those are the people I’m referring to who shouldn’t be in kollel. Those who violate geneivah while working though, I assume can do their job but it’s their apathy that causes them to vioate geneivah. I am not talking about those people because they SHOULD be working, they just need a lesson in halachah and derech eretz. If there are people who are working and physically and mentally can’t fulfill their responsibilities, then they should not be working either (at least in the job that their in) and should look for other options.July 7, 2010 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #689665YW Moderator-80Member
Kasha, according to Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tz’l, there will be a time of intense hatred of Talmidei Chochomin in the days soon before Moshiach.
There always has been such a hatred-envy (ie Rabbi Akiva before he was 40) among the am-haaretzim, but Rabbi Miller states (he always has a source, I don’t know what it is) it will intensify and become open, near the End of Days.
It’s all right on schedule.July 7, 2010 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #689667rescue37Participant
Can someone please explain then on how the following gedolim atended university.
1. The Malbim
2. Rav Hutner
3. Rav Weinberg
4. Rav Wolbe
5. Rav Herzog
6. Rav Etlinger
7. The Lubavitcher Rebbe
8. The Novimisker Rebbe
9. Rav Hirsch
Also, if college was so assur, how could Rav Moshe allowed his daughter to marry a college graduateJuly 7, 2010 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #689668yechezkel89Member
kasha let’s call a spade a spade there are plenty of people who sit & waste their time in the office and there are unfortunataly plenty of guys who waste their time in the beis. the rambam is very critical of those who only learn and take money from tzedaka. furthermore there were plenty of great talmeday chachamim who worked and learned such as R’ Shlomo Eiger and the Tora Temima. And there were plenty of great talmeday gedolim who went to college as well such as R’ Soloveichick, R ‘Hutner and the Lebavatcher Rebbi. So before you criticize this approach make sure you have the halacha and your facts straight.July 7, 2010 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #689669
Most American Gedolim do not say “college is Assur” (EY is a different animal). That is not even the question posed.
The question here is if a bachur, who for whatever reason, feels he is unable to balance college and Learning Torah, should he go to college and allow his learning to suffer.
I don’t see why he should go, if he and his non-Nogaih Rov (such as a family Rov, not the one whose yeshiva he would like to join) think college is not an option. As long as he is willing to live with that choice (don’t cry five years down the road that you don’t have a car, blackberry, etc. because you can’t afford it), he should go for it if he feels it is correct.
Also the idea that there can be no free time at all is foreign to learning. One of the 48 things that Torah is Nikneis is “Ma’at Sicha” (limited light conversation) Which the Stiepler said means at least ten minutes of Battala every day, and I have heard up to half an hour.July 7, 2010 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #689670
Rav Moshe also allowed his daughter to marry one of the biggest rabbonim at YU.July 7, 2010 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #689671YW Moderator-80Member
Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tz’l attended college as a youth for a short time. He called it a cesspool, and the seat of atheism, a lowly place worshiping immorality.
He did say that there might be limited circumstances for an occasional Yid that it might be acceptable to attend college, with certain caveats.July 7, 2010 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #689672
SJS: Says who? You have any verifiable source for that? We just had full discussions that a child can marry someone without the parents approval.July 7, 2010 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #689673
Gavra- this is true, a child at some point has to make their own choices as long as those choices do not effect or obligate others. In this case, that choice will obligate the parents to support him and therefore it is not his choice to make on his own. As parents we must guide our children and show the paths their choices will lead. If a choice for learning only is made, then like others have said, the Parents must question the path of how they plan to be mepharnes their families on that choice?
In this era, where parents have large families and the economy does not allow for unlimited support for unlimited amounts of children and there are no organizations or institutions offering unlimited support this system has begun to collapse upon itself. There is nothing wrong with a parent fulfilling their obligation of teaching their son a parnasah. If that son chooses to sit and learn after having that knowledge under his belt, that is his choice. But if at some time he will have to face the decision that he will have to go out into the real world and make a parnasah he will have the knowledge and the means to do so.July 7, 2010 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #689674
I have another suggestion for all those Rabbonim who “TELLl” their students it is assur to go to college. Let them give those students a parnasah contract. Let them put it in writing that THEY will support them in learning no matter how many children they have in the future. And please let us not forget that it includes Yeshiva tuition for each and every child because yeshivas don’t want to hear that the fathers are in Kolel and can’t afford to pay!July 7, 2010 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #689675yechezkel89Member
kasha: don’t be so naieve r’ Moshe allowed and was very found of R Tendler. Just b/c you have a different hashkafa don’t attribute it to those who have don’t have the same oneJuly 7, 2010 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #689676
There are some kollelim that work like that but they are set up different. I believe there is a special yissachar zevulun contract for people who do that. Its also more one on one, meaning, a gvir will make a contract with a certain yungerman commiting himself to a certain amount of money a month in return for his limud hatorah.
Most kollelim though are more general ie. the rosh kollel either has a main mefarnes who keeps up the kollel or/and goes around collecting for his kollel (usually they know a few gvirim that they collect by, I think). In this way there is no contract or any form of business deal between the two individual parties.
Real Yissachar Zevulun deals I think are pretty rare.July 7, 2010 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #689677
Rav Wolbe went to seminary before he became a ba’al teshuvah.
I will find out about Rav Hutner since my Rosh Kollel is a talmid of his.
I mentioned this at least once before. Some of the rabbanim that are being mentioned here have opposing views to each other regarding secular education. While R’ Herzog may have believed going to university was an ideal he was also on of the people who helped shape the religious zionist movement. In contrast the Chazon Ish was anti-zionist to a large degree and similarly was anti-university.
People who follow the teachings of one will not be impressed with the actions of the other. So as I said before its silly to bring proofs of rabbanim that went to university to people who do not follow the opinion of those rabbanim and vis versa.July 7, 2010 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #689678HealthParticipant
DH -There are plenty of right wing political gedolim who held going to college was mutter. Don’t ask me to name them. I don’t want to be oiver l’fnei michshol -You might come to mevazeh these gedolim and end up losing your chelek olam habah. There is a reason that Chaim Berlin, Torah v’das and Ner Israel allow college, besides others. It’s not even the Rosh Hayeshivos nowadays, this Shailoh was presented to gedolim probably before you were born.July 7, 2010 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #689679rescue37Participant
The point is that there is no one absolute derech. There are those here, that think there way is the only way and if you don’t follow there derech you are an oisvarf. The facts are that there are gedolim who attended, allowed people to attend or encouraged people to attend. On the flip side, there are those that said it’s assur. But was is missing from the assur side is the detail on why it is assur. If someone went to one of the gedolim who say college is assur, and told them I want to be a doctor, psychyatrist, actuary, lawer, etc… would they say it’s assur? I’m not so sure they would make a blanket statement that it is assur.
As far a Rav Hutner is concerned, not only did he attend university (I don’t know if he ever got a degree, but he attended at the same time as the Lubavicher Rebbe and Rav Solovechik) I have been told that the reason he was offered the job in Chaim Berlin was because he attended (or got a degree from a) university. It is also known that he wanted to start together with R’Shraga Feivel Mendelowitch a yeshiva college and went as far as getting approved by the state for it, but when R’ Aaron found out and told them he was against it, in defference to him they abandoned the plan. College nowadays in basically a training school, years ago college was a place you went to to study for studying sake. The tshuvas from previous generations may not be relevant as the facts and circumstances have changes as to the nature of the purpose in college. There may still be other issues with attending, but everything needs to be looked at, not just the mere fact that the word college is used.July 7, 2010 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #689680
Why would you HAVE to support your child if he makes the wrong choice? If you do, how will they and their children learn from their mistakes?
And if the parents don’t feel the child is ready to raise a family (not specificly money, but also maturity), then let them not pay for the wedding, or support his shidduch dating.
If you don’t want to punish the grandchildren, place money in a conditional trust that is given to them if they do what you want (either going to Brisk or Yale (or maybe both)).July 7, 2010 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #689681
We see this Machlokes in Derech today, as the Lakewood establishment (Rabbi Kotler) is anti-touro and its founder (and the Hamodia insert), while Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky from Philly wrote an article praising Rabbi Dr. Lander (in the recent Hamodia insert).July 7, 2010 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #689682tzippiMember
To Kasha: what profession can one make an adequate living in these days for just three hours a day? Since we’re dealing with different realities in one arena, perhaps we are in others too. And isn’t a Yissacher – Zevulun relationship more of a one to one match thing?
To Charlie Hall: pathetic about Ayn Rand. I’m sure the kids are just so precious. Hopefully she’ll fade away. But check out Rav Hirsch on Pirkei Avos 5:13 for his take on communism (con) and private ownership (pro; how can one give if one doesn’t own what to give from?).
To GAW: let’s not go there, especially during the three weeks. There is such a thing as honorable dissent, which might have been the original case but there are too many peanut gallerists weighing in. If there is any makom to make a machaa of some sort, it’s a don’t try this trick at home kids proposition. Anyone who’s troubled, CYLOR.July 7, 2010 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #689683
“To Kasha: what profession can one make an adequate living in these days for just three hours a day?”
So if you don’t want to go with the Rambam that you should work 3 hours a day and learn 8 (and that’s what the Rambam considers a “working person”) but not learn a full day on the public dole, you can go with the Rema and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah that says you are allowed to live off tzedaka in order to learn. But in any event, as I demonstrated earlier Yisoschor-Zevulin is not a tzedaka relationship, its a business partnership where Yisoschor is a “working man” by working in learning for his partnership with Zevulin. I’m not aware of any reason why it must be a one to one match, but it could be a one to one match I suppose.July 7, 2010 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #689684
A simple answer (3 hours working) could be a plumber, if there is no tuition involved (and in EY, there may not be). Also if you have an education, you could be a surgeon for 3 hours a couple of times a week (maybe).
Mrs. Tzippi: Not sure if you’re refering to the first post or the second. If it is the second, then I agree (which was my original point) to leave it to the Gedolim and say Eilu V’Eilu.July 7, 2010 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #689685
Kasha, I know the Tendler family very well.
University today is like high school of the past 50 years – in order to get most decent jobs (aside from cashier at Target), you need a degree. Or you need a trade – so then trade school.
There are very limited jobs for non-educated people. Its even worse if you don’t graduate from high school with a basic secular education.July 7, 2010 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #689686
Thank you gavra, great answer.
SJS: And they discussed this with you and told you otherwise? Or you’re using conjecture?
“in order to get most decent jobs (aside from cashier at Target), you need a degree”
Strongly disagree. Read the many (secular) articles describing many good paying jobs available without college.
“Or you need a trade – so then trade school.”
Great idea.July 7, 2010 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #689687
Kasha, I know. Lets leave it at that and take it for what its worth.
Kasha, I work for a company that hires many non-college educated workers. So I understand that there are jobs out there. However, many of those positions are much less flexible (work starts at 7 am and you cannot be late – try getting a minyan during parts of the year thats early enough for that, its very hard). Also, many are encouraged to go to college (they even pay for it) for you to move up through the company. As of now, promotions from union to management will only be allowed with a college degree.
Also, if people don’t go to College, why don’t we as a community support trade schools? There are many necessary trades (plumbing, electricians etc) where you can work shorter hours.
My BIL went to a Yeshiva that partnered with a Technical college and worked out ways for the boys to go to evening classes and have their talmudical classes count for humanities credits. His technical associates degree got him a good job (he then went to college to finish his bachelors while married).
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