- This topic has 234 replies, 83 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I don’t think there is any leniency being used, simply they have their peyos behind their ears. I don’t understand growing the side burns at all since I would think that is considered face hair and not hair on the head, as would be considered by a woman whose hair on her head has to be covered but not the hair on her face. Can anyone clarify about the halachos of peyos.
Regarding all that has been said about white shirts, some facts do ring true. (1) if you look at the pictures that portray the old yeshivos, you will see that they are not dressed in the same fashion that is prevalent today, nor are they neccessarily wearing white shirts.
my dear “KFB”, i think you are making a sad mistake by making a generalization of white shirts versus colored shirts. I personally know plenty of people of both colors who are good, and not as good as we would hope that they would be.
To summarize, every person has his own set of unique nisyonos that define his character. To judge his character based on a shirt does not seem to be logically correct.
BTGuy, on what basis do you know that white shirts make a person a better person that seeing someone in Lakewood not wearing a white shirt would make you feel “off”?
Baal Habooze, you are correct that everyone has a tzelem elokim. however, one of the reasons why people should not put to much focus on “a white shirt makes me a yeshivah bochur” is that when a yeshiva bochur joins the real world and divests himself o his white shirt, he loses the identity of being a jew to his max, and takes on a different mindset which allows him to be lenient in his desire to grow as a jew. this being said , you dhould be proud of your son that he is learning hashem’s holy torah in yeshivah, but not neccesarily proud that one may not share the same drive to grow closer to hashem when one changes his identity, based on his uniform.
In response to skiaddict, the fact that rebbeim in the gemora would wear a special levush is not neccessarily a logical connection to why bochurim should wear white shirts. somebody who is a rebbe is bound to have a slightly higher code of dress do to his position. A yeshiva bochur is not in the same position as his rebbe.
coreytothecup, you have touched upon one of the points that i mentioned earlier on. just because you wear a white shirt, it does not mea that you necesarily are a better person. while there is a standard of dress that a person must confine himself to, a colored button-down shirt is acceptable as long as it was done in good taste.
To answer your previous question, the reason why the world of yeshivos has adopted the black pants white shirt uniform is because when Torah Vodaath was founded(which all of the present day yeshivos sprang from), the hanhala decided that the yeshivish world should conform to the chassidim. the chassidim place a great emphasis on their dress, which the yeshivish started leaning towards the chassidim in other areas as well, such as chassidishe minhagim (gartel, upsherin, mikva every friday,etc….)
midwesterner. what do you know about the alter of slabodka who was a giant of a man in Torah and mussar (and could wipe the floor with you in both areas, i should add) that he approved of polka dot shirts that his tamidim learnt that the derech from him was to be shtoltzy? do you even know what the phrase gadlus haadam really means?!!! The alter himself acc. to the derech hachaim that he lived by, would not care about white shirts vs. colored shirts. he would say wear whatever respectable shirt you wish as long as it is in good taste and conforms to the mesorah.
i apologize for being harsh, but it pains me to see someone say that a giant of mussar could have preached ideals that would make people act on vain and haughty ideas.!!!
Oh btguy, your second post is true, and reveals a dangerous fact. clothing do affect how you act(chitzonios meorair es hapenimiyos), yet if you wear white shirts and believe that you are a gadol already,you are not being honest with yourself and are faking yourself out as where you are holding in your avodas hashem.
sam432.i hate to point it out, but you are wrong regarding the uniform of a ben torah. The different clothing you wear conveys the attitude that you feel at the moment. for example, buisnessmen do not attend meeting in pajamas, but rather in a suit and dress shoes, because they dress for the occasion. same by a jew that recognizes that he possesses the Tzelem Elokim, which puts him of a high exalted nature- he dresses accordingly, corrresponding to the situation. (you dress differently on the golf green then you do while building a wooden shed ).
we have a definition of what the proper dress should be for people of all different stations and situations in life as as our rebbeim have told us how a jew should dress. the uniform remains the same wheter you are a bochur or married man or a college guy (with some exceptions of those who are in chinuch)
Avar zmano battul karbano- this thread was already published in country yossi.
I believe necromancy is assur mid’oraisa.
im seeing this thread for the 1st time, but its a dumb question if you ask me. The fact is that what color your shirt or your pants are make no difference to your avodas hashem. That being said, there will always be foolish people who believe that wearing a white shirt somehow makes you a better person… go figure
I don’t think wearing a white shirt makes you a better person.
Having said that, there definitely is something to be said for a “uniform” so to speak.
Imagine a Admiral in a sweatshirt.
Even a bellhop in the Ritz Carlton in a Yankees tee shirt…
Sort of how in some communities, it doesn’t make you a “better person” if you wear a tux to the wedding, but it sure shows how you value yourself as person…
Someone who would show up there in jeans would be giving off a very l-o-u-d message.
I think we’re so impervious to these ideas because most of us grew up in a society where the head of state dressed as befitting his position.
Now we are flashed pictures of the President with his feet up on the desk and the Vice President in shorts…
The Halocho utilizes expression of “Your Shabbos clothing should not resemble your weekday clothing” rather than some expression of keeping an extra set of clothing for Shabbos.
In light of this phrase, and in light of common usage being that Shabbos garb for most people implies a business [lounge] suit & white shirt {& tie & hat}, hence on weekdays I make a point of not wearing a suit & white shirt; Consequently during the week, I wear either a suit with a color shirt, or white shirt with Blazer & pants (& tie & hat}.
To me this Halocho is more significant than some so called yeshivish uniform.
That being said, there will always be foolish people who believe that wearing a white shirt somehow makes you a better person… go figure
A list of some foolish people who only wear white shirts:
R’ Elyashiv, R’ Chaim Kanievsky, R’ Nissim Karelitz, R’ Aron Leib Shteinman, R’ Dovid and R’ Avrohom Yehoshua Soloveitchik, R’ Yitzchok Berkowitz, R’ Ezriel and R’ Shmuel Auerbach, R’ Shmuel Wosner, R’ Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg,
R’ Yisroel Belsky, R’ Reuven and R’ Dovid Feinstein, R’ Malkeil Kotler, R’ Yerucham Olshin, R’ Dovid Schustal, R’ Yisroel Nueman, R’ Ahron Schechter, R’ Avrohom Schorr, R’ Shlomo Brevda
Not to mention all the present Chassidishe Rebbes.
You shouldn’t hold it against them though. They are obviously not as wise as you.
Not a big fan of the white shirt uniform argument. As far as im concerned tzitzis and yarmulka are the uniform
147: I agree, I have clothing that I use only for Shabbos. I happen to have a shirt that I used during the week. It’s mostly white, with a colored stripe on it. I also happen to have a tie that matches it perfectly. My wife asked me to wear it on Shabbos, as she felt it would be very nice.
Before I did so, I took the other two shirts I have which are similar, and took them out of my rotation of shirts that I use during the week. Then I started using the one shirt for Shabbos. I won’t wear a similar shirt during the week.
147 – Are you keeping count of how many threads you’ve posted this on ? I guess we’re still not going for it…
“That being said, there will always be foolish people who believe that wearing a white shirt somehow makes you a better person… go figure
A list of some foolish people who only wear white shirts:
R’ Elyashiv, R’ Chaim Kanievsky, R’ Nissim Karelitz, R’ Aron Leib Shteinman, R’ Dovid and R’ Avrohom Yehoshua Soloveitchik, R’ Yitzchok Berkowitz, R’ Ezriel and R’ Shmuel Auerbach, R’ Shmuel Wosner, R’ Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg,
R’ Yisroel Belsky, R’ Reuven and R’ Dovid Feinstein, R’ Malkeil Kotler, R’ Yerucham Olshin, R’ Dovid Schustal, R’ Yisroel Nueman, R’ Ahron Schechter, R’ Avrohom Schorr, R’ Shlomo Brevda
Not to mention all the present Chassidishe Rebbes.
You shouldn’t hold it against them though. They are obviously not as wise as you.”
Derech Hamelech- far east said ” foolish people who think wearing white shirts somehow makes them a better person”. The gedolim you mentioned above do wear only white shirts, but they never said that thay are superior because of that. Find me a gadol who says that wearing colored shirts makes you any less of a good, holy Jew.
far east was referring to those who wear white shirts and believe that they are better than those who choose to wear colored shirts. Just pointing it out.
The “white shirt uniform” implies that people cannot decide for themselves what constitutes “correct” dress. I guess those you believe in the “uniform” have voluntarily given up their right to decide their own dress code. Others are not willing to voluntarily cede their right to choose their own clothing and feel they can choose appropriate dress themselves.
Well Logician:- Feif Un concurs with me.
Thank you Feif Un, for backing me up.
I am sincerely glad for you. I can only imagine how wonderful it must feel to discover and keep an halachah that 99.99% of Jews and their leaders don’t bother with.
Derech haMelech should study the Gemoro in the early part of Tractate Bobo Basro:- Someone who dresses in a Rabbi’s Garb and isn’t holding by that level, the Gemoro has some less than nice things to say of that individual. However, someone who is of caliber of a Rabbi, but humbles himself to a business/lounge suit, the Gemoro speaks nicely of this person’s meekness.
But Derech haMelech’s application of foolish to the names he appended this appelation to, is very inappropriate to say the very least. No-one is looking up to any of those individuals on his list because of their white shirt, but because of the Torah knowledge they have been Zochim to reach & disseminate.
Thanks for the back up cinderalla
@Derech Hamelech
Thats a very nice rant where u just listed a bunch of gedolim. I have no idea what that has to do with your point. i would assume that if these gedolim only wear white shirts, its for a reason they have imposed on themselves and nothing to do with halachah. I highly doubt they would be as hostile as you are towards a non-white shirt dresser like my self.
Perhaps it is best to reserve wearing white shirts during the week for real Klei Kodesh?
I would like to refer the readers to the Mishnah in Masechta Megillah Daf :??. To quote: If one says, I will not pass before the Ark (to lead the Tefillah)in a coloured shirt, he may not pass before it in a white shirt either. And the Gemarah explains: . What is the reason? We are apprehensive that he has a leaning towards ?????, or rejection of the Torah; because he is implying that the wearing of a white shirt is a form of added Kavod or appropriate dress for Tefillah, which it is not.
Make your own conclusions.
The rabbanim mentioned above know all the gemaras you bring down better then you, and still allow their talmidim to wear white shirts, imagine that! I guess theyre not nervous of going against the gemara. maybe you shouldn’t be, either. And if you are, your personal chumra shouldnt keep others from wearing white shirts, ok?
I dunno; I have a picture of my dad and uncle at about ages 14 and 9 wearing green and pink (respectively) RUFFLED SHIRTS. No joke. (Quinquagenarians here, please don’t be insulted.)
He never wore white shirts.
But I consider it as more of a thing like girls wear uniforms to school. Girls wear whatever color shirts, and boys wear whatever color shirts (in this case white).
cinderella:
I understood that he was saying that people who think there are maalos to wearing a white shirt are foolsih. My point was that the biggest gedolim of our generation all seem to think that there is some beneficial reason to wearing a white shirt and therefore it is incorrect to call those that do, foolish.
147: I’m not really sure where you’re coming from.
far east:
That being said, there will always be foolish people who believe that wearing a white shirt somehow makes you a better person…
i would assume that if these gedolim only wear white shirts, its for a reason they have imposed on themselves and nothing to do with halachah.
I am confused as to your opinion of those people who wear white shirts. Do you think people who wear white shirts are foolish or do you think there are valid reasons to wear it- whether or not you yourself wear one.
drech hamelech- i believe people who think wearing a white shirt makes them a better person are foolish. I dont think gedolim wear white shirts because they believe it makes them better however a lot of people do wear them because of this reason
Im not sure why you seem to think im saying people who wear white shirts are automatically foolish
Wearing a white shirt does not make one a better person. Wearing a blue (or any other color) shirt does not make one a better person. Dressing respectfully, ACTING respectfully, showing respect for others and for oneself, THOSE are some of the things that make one a better person.
Everyone needs to wear white shirts cuz everyone needs to fit into the box. and that box is EVERYONE needs to be “metzuyonim.” (or ur out on the street.) Theres no middle ground. big problem in todays society. Same reason a typical B.Y. girl doesnt wear colored shirts either.
Toi: Why so cynical? Don’t disregard the Gemarah just because you don’t understand the Rabbonim’s response to it. What we need to do is figure out how this all plays together.
What the Gemarah appears to be referring to is a mentality in which a person takes his own measurements of Kavod or of proper, refined attire, and blows it out of proportion to the extent that he views others who don’t follow his protocol as “not as frum”, or as lax in their commitment to Yiddishkeit. Of course, a person has to delineate for himself what he feels is “doing his part” in regards to Kavod and Gadlus HaAdam, but to impose those views on others or ?”? make it as ???? as compliance with Halacha, is going past the red line. Now, a large amount of the Rabbonim have determined that, for a variety of reasons ranging from being distinguished amongst the Goyim, to reasons such as giving a broad definition to what is considered elegant dress. But we should never conclude that someone who does not view it in that way as someone who is compromising Halacha, so long as he maintains elegant dress and continues being a Kiddush Hashem.
anti- I’m not being cynical. I’m simply stating that a person who feels that wearing a white shirt on weekdays is kneged the gemara, and accordingly are makpid on themselves not to wear one doesnt mean that they can apply that chumrah to me. And if they will respond that they think its a mifurash’ gemara, then I answer that there are gedolim who wear it themselves and permit their talmidim to wear it, too. And so, please dont force your chumras on me.
Toi please stop making this sound like I have some sort of personal vendetta against the frum community. No one is talking about chumrahs. In fact, if you must know, I also wear a white shirt throughout the week! We are discussing a definition of refined dress, and I am pointing out that it is NOT a halachah or chumrah-oriented discussion, it is a Hashkafa point that is subject to an individuals analysis of the definition of proper, elegant dress, and living up to his own standards of living B’Tzelem Elokim.
Hi Derech HaMelech:
RIGHT ON!! Great post! White shirts may not be the easiest to keep clean, but they have that “elevation” ingredient the other colors dont have. Black also has a special ingredient. Gray and Silver, too. Add blue to that, as well. On second thought, maroon is cool, too. But for shirts bringing out the best in a mentsch; it is white, hands down.
Hi Mussarman613.
Wait a second! I made a statement in the affirmative which is positioned as a “given”.
If you want to counter/object to that, I would appreciate knowing the basis/support for your disagreement. In this way, I can engage in dialogue with you rather than restat
It’s a respected uniform in our day and age…
For example in the 1800 only the rich would wear hats the higher the hat the richer. We are the children of hashem we come from royalty, it’s only right to dress the part,no?
A white shirt is either a higher class business man, a partying guy, or a frum Jew, you are able to tell this from afar… We are the am segula would you want any different??? Ok you can say it’s alittle odd to wear it on certain occasions but on a regular day you’ve got the Kippa, you might as well dress it up and make a kiddush hashem and wear a white shirt. It looks more respectful and the goyim dont look down upon it they look up to it… So why in the world would you adorn a t-shirt or any other colored shirt??? If you do you are missing out on so much!!!
How come so many seminaries have the blue shirt policy??? No Halacha just a uniform… Would you rather them have a tank top policy???
How come most yeshivahs only allow white shirts as a policy.???
Conformity and the need to appear “frummer” or “better” than their competition.
The Wolf
Wolf, why are you so bitter about it?
Wolf, why are you so bitter about it?
Who said I was bitter?
I believe that yeshivos do structure their policies to appear “frummer” and “better” than others.
This manifests itself in any number of areas including rules that apply to both students and parents, an ever-increasing workload on students, an ever-earlier approach to learning new subjects (i.e. pushing “serious school” into pre-school, staring Gemara in the fourth grade, etc.) and so on.
I’m not personally bitter about it, but I think that it is sad.
The Wolf
Wolf – I agree that this affects many yeshivah policies, but this is so taken for granted these days that I don’t think its relevant to this topic. Conformity, yes.
I really think everyone should wear tye dye shirts, lets get some color in our lives. Looking at all the white and black during morning seder puts me right to sleep.
rosewood
Tell that to the Gedolei Yisrael. Black and white have become the color of Am Yisrael and some random poster has no right to change our mesorah. Look at the centers of Torah learning like Lakewood, Brisk, Ponovezh, and many other yeshivos where all the students continue the legacy of our ancestors dressed in the two shades that represent our nation.
Optimusprime: Funny. I don’t see people in Yeshivos wearing blue and white. 😉
“How come so many seminaries have the blue shirt policy??? No Halacha just a uniform… Would you rather them have a tank top policy???”
are you comparing boys not wearing white shirts to girls wearing tank tops?
Look at what the Kohen Gadol wore. Colorful garments, strings of gold, a breastplate with a dazzling array of gems. And he was definitely a Jew of the highest stature. I don’t want to change any “mesorah” and I don’t care to. I’ll keep wearing my colored shirts, and if anyone else wants to wear black and white, good for you.
how about some colored kippas;) with disney characters for each sect. donald duck will be for satmar. mickeymouse will be for vidgnitz, minimouse will be for belz, etc, etc.. 😉 the ladies should wear colored wigs. pink, purple, bright green, orange, rainbow colored… why stick to a normal hair color…lol;) women should wear nose rings the Imohos wore them.. so should they..;) no? the reason is is because nose rings nowadays are accepted upon the lower class goyim therefore a bas yisrael doesn’t do that nowadays. dressing formally adds to kovod hatorah. white shirts are formal attire. it’s become minhag hamokom in most yeshivishe sectors around the globe. for that reason alone it should be adhered to.
DFL
Member
“How come so many seminaries have the blue shirt policy??? No Halacha just a uniform… Would you rather them have a tank top policy???”
are you comparing boys not wearing white shirts to girls wearing tank tops?
Posted 24 minutes ago #
no I am saying would the boys rather have a tank top policy, than a white shirt policy, personally, if it was up to me I’d rather have a white shirt than a tanktop.. I am comparing the blueshirt uniform policy with the seminary girls to the white shirt Uniform of the yeshiva boys.
more_2- uummm….. only bjj and maybe hadar have that policy- sry to ruin your point
optimus prime: The only reason for this mesorah is because color clothing wasnt so common then. So i think it is time for an update on this mesorah. There is no halacha of having to wear boring clothing. Maybe I will wear white oants and a black shirt tomorrow to yeshiva, that will really throw them off.
If one grows up with the mindset that ONLY white shirts are choshuv, that is what one will believe. If one goes to a Yeshivah which indoctrinates its students in that philosophy, that is what those students will believe. The Yeshivas have that right, and parents have that right to teach that to their children. there are valid points to be made for this. What NEITHER has the right to do however, is to imply or in many cases to actually assert that those who do not attire themselves in this fashion, are somehow less frum because of that.
rosewood
Member
“optimus prime: The only reason for this mesorah is because color clothing wasnt so common then. So i think it is time for an update on this mesorah. There is no halacha of having to wear boring clothing. Maybe I will wear white oants and a black shirt tomorrow to yeshiva, that will really throw them off.”
Posted 1 hour ago #
good point, all the pictures are black and white from that timeframe how do you know your great great and a few more greats pos. grand father didn’t wear a pink hat with an orange feather?LOL;)
bygirl93
Member
“more_2- uummm….. only bjj and maybe hadar have that policy- sry to ruin your point”
Posted 2 hours ago #
don’t worry it doesn’t ruin my point. not all yeshivas have the white shirt policy either;) it’s just that more yeshivas have a white shirt policy than seminaries having a blue shirt policy makes no difference how many of each. it’s just a point that there is a uniform for the girls too. You can also compare the yeshivos to working in walmart l’havdil l’havdolos, why can’t you wear your own clothes if you work there, why do you have to adhere to the uniform..
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.