February 16, 2012 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #852049popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Yes, I agree with your second point, that it would not increase love for the torah, if done today.
You should also agree with my second point, that it was a normal occurence back when we had control. Every time someone received malkus for violating a lav, it was physical religious coercion. And since it was the policy, you always had the threat hanging over you also.February 16, 2012 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #852050MiddlePathParticipant
Yes, I do agree with your second point as well. When I said “rare”, I was really just referring to examples where we use force initially to make someone act (as in giving a ‘Get’),whereas I now see you were referring to using force AFTER an act, as a consequence (as in lashes), which as you said, was commonplace.February 16, 2012 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #852051yichusdikParticipant
But popa, what do you do about the issue of La’av she’ein bo maaseh, eino lokin olov? Here we are talking about a “thought” crime, or a refusal to do something, not an actual maaseh. Kal v’chomer if it is not an adjudicated la’av, how can beating be permitted?February 17, 2012 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #852052hershiMember
If BD today was capable of enforcing this, I think you would find a lot more halachic compliance amongst the general populace. Not so much because of actual enforcement actions carried out by BD, as much as the mere knowledge of their powers.February 17, 2012 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #852053popa_bar_abbaParticipant
But popa, what do you do about the issue of La’av she’ein bo maaseh, eino lokin olov? Here we are talking about a “thought” crime, or a refusal to do something, not an actual maaseh. Kal v’chomer if it is not an adjudicated la’av, how can beating be permitted?
Sorry, I wasn’t aware we were talking about particular cases. I thought we were talking in general about the notion of forcing compliance through physical threat and coercion.
But, if you want to talk about things which are not chayav malkus, the gemara also says that beis din can force whatever they want through whatever means they want, if they think there is a more widespread problem.
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