Confusing halacha, minhag, chumra and shtus*

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  • #1211038
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Perhaps reading what people write instead of making false accusations would be the appropriate courtesy to extend to other posters.

    #1211039

    of course i read it (my reading comprehension is somewhere around 96%), that was the impetus for the comment. there are many ways to “forget” without being a single women who hasn’t been lighting, or someone with alzheimers. if you would have asked, you might have gotten some feedback.

    #1211040
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Okay, so I finally got around to looking up some of these halachos in Shmiras Shabbos K’hilchasa:

    1. You fulfill your obligation with one candle, but it is a Mitzvah to light more, and the Minhag is to light at least two. (43/2). (from the way it’s phrased, it sounds like it may be a bigger Mitzvah to light a lot of candles.)

    2. You should not light a candleholder that has 7 branches made of metal (43/2). (I never heard of this halacha before!).

    3.If you are accustomed to lighting a certain number of candles, you are not allowed to light less. (43/3) This only applies when you are lighting in your own house. If you are away, the minhag is to light two candles.

    4. If you are accustomed to lighting big candles, you can’t light smaller ones. This also only applies when you are lighting in your own house. (43/3) (this was also news to me!)

    5. If the wife wants to start lighting more candles, she is only allowed to do so if her husband doesn’t mind (43/3). (there’s the answer to your question, LB!)

    6. If she forgets to light, she has to light one extra candle every week (43/5).

    7. If she forgets more than once, she has to add one candle for each time that she forgot (ibid).

    8. If she is poor, it is enough to light bigger candles every week or use a little more oil (ibid).

    9. This halacha only applies if she FORGOT and not if she is “ones”/coerced (ibid). (so it would seem that someone who couldn’t light because she was asleep would not have to light extra – but she should ask a sheilah to be sure).

    10. If she didn’t light because she made a mistake – either in the halacha or the reality – it is not clear what the halacha is and it is possible that she doesn’t have to add on (ibid, footnote 36).

    11. If the candles blow out, she doesn’t have to add on, unless she could have relit them and didn’t. If it was Yomtov or if it’s Shabbos but she wasn’t mekabel Shabbos yet and it there was still time to light before Shabbos and she she didn’t, then she has to add on a candle in the future. If she was mekabel Shabbos but she could have asked someone else to relight the candles and she didn’t, it is a question if she has to add on in the future (ibid).

    #1211041
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Apparently, this was in the 4% of cases. Try reading it again.

    #1211042
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I wasn’t offended.

    I can see how LU would think that. I don’t know if “I” count because one can argue that I’m still acquiring a steady practice. Still, I’ve forgotten while literally making it a point to remember.

    One example was that I was indoors all day long with the shutters closed. I didn’t realize that I missed candle lighting time. I didn’t even realize that it was getting dark outside. Then it hit me. Just a few hours earlier I was all about lighting. I was also tired and out of whack time-wise.

    Another situation was where I forgot to buy candles. I was out of everything. So I didn’t light.

    #1211043

    haha, cute sense of humor. and once again you avoid contemplating making a mistake by focusing on my words instead. Seems I keep falling for it, silly me.

    To anyone out there who forgot (according to someone who is actually in position to pasken) you should not feel so lowly. there are many legitimate situations that can come up or there wouldn’t be halacjos about how to handle it. just do your best and know Hashem knows what is in your heart.

    #1211044

    (so it would seem that someone who couldn’t light because she was asleep would not have to light extra – but she should ask a sheilah to be sure).

    I assume that is your own addition, not from the SS”K, because it is incorrect. Sleeping through candle lighting, unless she was very ill, is preventable and therefore negligence, and is in the same category as forgetting.

    #1211045
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Some more interesting points from Shmiras Shabbos K’hilchasa’s footnotes:

    1. He asks the question: “If the point of lighting 2 is because of Shamor and zachor, why are you allowed to light more than 2? (he doesn’t answer the question here, but gives the source where it is answered.)

    2. Some light 7 for the days of the week, and some light 10 for the 10 Dibros, and some light one for each child.

    3. He says there is more than reason brought down for the minhag of lighting one for each child. One reason he gives is the reason that WTP gave earlier – a penalty for missing when you give birth. This is from the Mishna Halachos who proves from this that you do receive the penalty even when you are “ones” (“forced”).

    So it seems that there are opinions that you get the penalty even if it wasn’t “shogeg” (by mistake). I wonder if anyone goes by this l’maaseh. It’s interesting that the Shemiras Shabbos k’hilchasa only mentions this opinion in passing, in a footnote.

    #1211046
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY – it was my own – that’s why I said to ask a sheilah. When it comes to missing davening, such a person would be considered “ones” and not a “maizid” and t/f would be able to do tashlumim.

    Maybe the halacha is different by candlelighting? Do you have a reason for thinking that in such a case a person is considered shogeg and not ones?

    I just reread your post – your assumption that it’s not “ones” is that it’s preventable. I don’t think that’s true. But I would be interested in hearing why you think that is the case.

    #1211047
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    DY: What if she dreamt that she was lighting?

    #1211048

    Has anyone out there ever heard of anyone forgetting to light candles (not “ones” but forgetting)?

    It’s not that hard to imagine in the hectic rush to get ready for Shabbos, a harried woman could lose track of time.

    It could also more easily happen when she is not in her usual routine, such as away at a simchah.

    A case where sge arrived home (or whatever her destination) too late to light because of negligence would also fit the category of “forgetting”.

    #1211049
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Regarding the question I asked in a previous post – does anyone know of any other cases (besides the 5 possibilities I came up with) where someone could forgot to light but didn’t forget it was Shabbos- I hope no one felt put on the spot by that question.

    While I am interested in knowing of other possibilities, I realize that it could be embarrassing to answer that question. However, you could just say that it happened to your friend, and there’s no reason that anyone would know the difference.

    #1211050

    (he doesn’t answer the question here, but gives the source where it is answered.)

    Here, the Rema quotes Rishonim that adding doesn’t detract from a corresponding number.

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x1196

    #1211051

    I wonder if anyone goes by this l’maaseh.

    Gamanit’s grandmother.

    I know a lady whose rav told her to light extra for when she missed for a pure oines.

    #1211052
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB- I wasn’t talking about you. I specifically said that I was only talking about someone who is already at the stage that they are used to lighting, which doesn’t sound like it’s the case by you.

    Also, the cases you mentioned are different. I hadn’t thought that not having candles counts as “forgetting”. You didn’t forget to light at candle lighting time – you just couldn’t light because you didn’t have candles.

    But, I wonder if the halacha category of “forgetting” is broader than I initially thought and would include such a case? I am starting to wonder if some of the times that I have missed candle-lighting were considered to be in the halachic category of “shogeg”. Maybe the category is broader than I thought. Alternatively, maybe it’s narrower than others think. Something to look into. Thank you, Lightbrite, for opening my eyes to this. I think I have missed candle lighting several times in my life, but it never occurred to me that I had to add on candles. Either I thought those cases didn’t count as “forgetting” (because I didn’t forget to light, and it seemed to me that I was “ones”, or because I just forgot that there is such a halacha and didn’t think to ask a sheilah as to whether my cases were considered “ones” or “forgetting”.

    Thank you Lightbrite for enlightening me!

    #1211053
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Thank you DY for answering my question. I’m glad someone finally decided to actually answer my question instead of accusing me of not having asked it! Thank you!

    So it sounds like you are assuming that negligence would fall under the halachic category of “forgetting”. LB seemed to make that assumption as well. I wonder what you are basing that assumption on?

    Why would you think that “forgetting” means anything other than forgetting?

    As I mentioned in a previous post, if that is the case, I may have a lot of extra candles I should be lighting every week!

    There were a few times when I was spending Shabbos at a friend’s house and running late and got there after shkiya. In terms of chilul Shabbos, it wasn’t a problem since I was walking and I made sure that I was within the Eruv before shkiya. But the problem was that I got there too late to light candles, and I couldn’t light at home since I was neither sleeping nor eating at home.

    If I saw I was running late, I would call my friend to ask her to light for me, but sometimes, by the time I realized, it was too late or I couldn’t get through to her.

    It didn’t occur to me that I have to light extra from now on (it wasn’t “shogeg”), but now I am wondering if I do.

    #1211054
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB: “DY: What if she dreamt that she was lighting?”

    lol, I did that with Krias Shema once. I fell asleep on the couch, and then reminded myself that I had to wake up to say Krias Shema. I said the entire Krias Shema and then I opened my eyes. I realized that I must have just said Krias Shema in my sleep because I thought my eyes were open when I said it. I really remembered saying every word, but I must have been asleep.

    I was trying to figure out afterwards if it counted or not.

    #1211055

    Regarding the question I asked in a previous post – does anyone know of any other cases (besides the 5 possibilities I came up with) where someone could forgot to light but didn’t forget it was Shabbos- I hope no one felt put on the spot by that question.

    See my post above yours.

    I just reread your post – your assumption that it’s not “ones” is that it’s preventable. I don’t think that’s true. But I would be interested in hearing why you think that is the case.

    The Mishnah Berurah’s case of oines is where she was in prison. Anything short of complete oines, the minhag/din is to add.

    Sleeping through is not an oines. She should have set an alarm or some type of shomer.

    If you want some more cases spelled out, see R’ Ribiat’s sefer on 39 Melachos.

    #1211056
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “(he doesn’t answer the question here, but gives the source where it is answered.)

    Here, the Rema quotes Rishonim that adding doesn’t detract from a corresponding number.

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x1196″

    Thank you! I will try to look at it when I have a chance.

    #1211057
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    What does ones mean in this sense? I think LU stated that it means coercion. How so?

    DY: Do you mean that she had to light an extra because she was coerced into “forgetting”?

    __________

    ***Side note: Before today, did anyone notice that Neville ChaimBerlin’s subtitle says Blocked?

    NB posted on pg 1 of this thread.

    #1211058

    DY: What if she dreamt that she was lighting?

    Not an oines.

    That reminds me of the yeshiva bochur who misses Shacharis. The mashgiach asked him what happened.

    He replied:

    “I got into a huge fight with the yetzer hora, who wanted me to sleep late, but I kept fighting him and fighting him. Finally, I won, and was about to get up, but was so exhausted from fighting, that I fell asleep again.”

    #1211059

    It didn’t occur to me that I have to light extra from now on (it wasn’t “shogeg”), but now I am wondering if I do.

    That’s not even close to being in prison (Mishnah Berurah’s case) or being busy with a sick child (SS”K’s case), so I would say yes, you should add.

    There are other factors, though, (such as that there was light where you ate), so definitely ask a shailah.

    #1211060
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    LU +1 and +1 [in case I forgot to Plus-One you earlier] 🙂

    #1211061
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “The Mishnah Berurah’s case of oines is where she was in prison. Anything short of complete oines, the minhag/din is to add.

    Sleeping through is not an oines. She should have set an alarm or some type of shomer.

    If you want some more cases spelled out, see R’ Ribiat’s sefer on 39 Melachos.”

    Thank you. I will try to look into it, b”n. I was assuming that shocheich meant “forgetting” and didn’t mean “anything that is not a pure ones”. Maybe I’m wrong, and I will have to look into it.

    It does seem to me that the category of “shocheich” may not be as broad as you are saying. The example of “ones” given in SS”K is a lady taking care of her sick son. That does not sound like a “complete ones” to me, and in fact sounds similar to my cases and perhaps yours and LB’s examples as well.

    Also, he writes that if someone made a mistake, it is not clear if she gets the penalty. That doesn’t sound like “complete ones” to me.

    Regarding sleeping, personally, I can’t handle alarm clocks or being woken up by someone. I have a pretty good mental alarm clock, B”H, and when it doesn’t work, it usually means that I really needed the sleep. Also, what if she just conked out? I would think that would be “ones”.

    #1211062
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “DY: What if she dreamt that she was lighting?

    Not an oines.

    That reminds me of the yeshiva bochur who misses Shacharis. The mashgiach asked him what happened.

    He replied:

    “I got into a huge fight with the yetzer hora, who wanted me to sleep late, but I kept fighting him and fighting him. Finally, I won, and was about to get up, but was so exhausted from fighting, that I fell asleep again.”

    lol. sounds similar to my excuses for things like this.

    #1211063
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY: “That’s not even close to being in prison (Mishnah Berurah’s case) or being busy with a sick child (SS”K’s case), so I would say yes, you should add.

    There are other factors, though, (such as that there was light where you ate), so definitely ask a shailah.”

    Thank you, will look into it, b”n. Tizke l’Mitzvos!

    #1211064

    DY: Do you mean that she had to light an extra because she was coerced into “forgetting”?

    Ones means it was beyond the person’s control, or not their fault.

    #1211065
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    DY: Thank you!

    #1211066
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB -thanks so much for +1ing me, but what were you +1ing me for?

    #1211067

    The example of “ones” given in SS”K is a lady taking care of her sick son. That does not sound like a “complete ones” to me,

    Why not? She did the right thing to take care of her sick child instead of lighting candles.

    You did not do the right thing when you mismanaged your time and arrived too late to light, or overslept (unless you were literally too I’ll).

    (I’m speaking from a halachic perspective, not trying to give mussar.)

    #1211068
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “(I’m speaking from a halachic perspective, not trying to give mussar.)”

    I understand that; I don’t take halachic discussions personally. But thank you for pointing that out.

    It would be a little hard to explain why I put it in the same category, but I had my reasons. On the one hand, in terms of the lady with the sick child, maybe I’m not exactly understanding the case, but it seems to me that it is not an absolute “ones”- why would a sick child prevent someone from lighting candles? And why couldn’t someone else in the house light? But then again, I’ve never had a sick child, so it could be I’m not “getting it”.

    On the other hand, in terms of my case, I don’t want to go into all the details, because it’s too hard to explain, but basically, I felt like for me it was similar to the lady taking care of her sick child. And just like it would be hard for me to understand a mother taking care of her sick child, it would be hard for someone else to understand my situation.

    But you just made me realize something – if I do ask the sheilah, I have to make sure to find someone whom I can explain my situation to.

    #1211069

    On the other hand, in terms of my case, I don’t want to go into all the details, because it’s too hard to explain, but basically, I felt like for me it was similar to the lady taking care of her sick child.

    It’s probably too hard to explain because it’s not really comparable…

    #1211071
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    By the way, I should have clarified that my sleeping friend added a candle after asking a shaila. So clearly not a case of oines, as people here explained.

    #1211073
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    WTP – Maybe it was oines, and the Rav held that for Oines you light an extra candle. According to the footnotes in the SS”K, there is such an opinion, although it doesn’t sound like he holds that way. I don’t know whether or not anyone holds that way l’maaseh.

    #1211074
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY- that is very judgmental and insensitive. You don’t know my situation, it was a very difficult one (and too personal to explain), and your words are very hurtful. I am sure that you didn’t mean to be insensitive which is why I am letting you know.

    #1211075

    See, your trying to say you were really an oines is best saved for your posek. According to the facts you presented, it was simply poor time management, and you would be like a shocheiach.

    You said earlier that you don’t get insulted by halachah discussion. I guess that changed?

    #1211076
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY – you were making assumptions that my case was not comparable to the lady with the sick child without knowing the details of the case despite the fact that I (who obviously do know the details) had said that I thought it might be comparable. That is being judgmental.

    I had specifically said that I couldn’t present all the details. Perhaps that wasn’t clear and you thought you had all the details and that’s why you said what you did?

    Again, I can’t go into the details, but it had nothing to do with time management. I can’t go into the details because it is too personal.

    “See, your trying to say you were really an oines is best saved for your posek.”

    I wasn’t asking you to posken. I was simply saying that it’s possible that I was an oines and I would need to ask a sheilah.

    #1211077
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Sorry for the side-track, but I want to thank DaasYochid for showing me that if you put “beta.” in front of hebrewbooks.org, you can get more content than using the normal www. It’s great to know they have an actually legible Shulchan Aruch out there!

    #1211078
    #1211079
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    “You said earlier that you don’t get insulted by halachah discussion. I guess that changed? ” (DY)

    You’re assumption wasn’t part of a halachic discussion. It was unnecessary and imho did not bring any light to halacha. Instead it put down LU.

    “According to the facts you presented, it was simply poor time management, and you would be like a shocheiach.” (DY)

    She did not present the facts to be poskened by a rav. You’re not even her rav. If you were a rav, I doubt that you would throw out such judgments. It wasn’t your place and LU doesn’t need to go into the details.

    One could even say that putting more out here in the CR was a breach of her boundaries and inappropriate to bring what happens in her home of public nature.

    #1211080
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB – I just noticed this now. Thanks so much for sticking up for me! 🙂

    I have a feeling this may have to do with differences between Martians and Venusians since DY is usually pretty nice. The problem is that I sound like a Martian sometimes, so real Martians forget that I’m not one.

    When I reread DY’s posts, I could see that he probably meant something different than the way it sounded to us. And I’m sure he still hasn’t “chapped” that I wasn’t trying to criticize him; I had just wanted an apology. But it’s fine; I figured out for myself that he didn’t mean it the way it sounded, so I don’t need an apology anymore. I can be moichel him without it.

    #1211081

    What part of asking for credibility is “not being nice”, and what part of being female exempts supporting comments when called out on them? That is somewhat insulting to our other female posters .

    #1211084
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Wow!!! From Halacha for today:

    However, the custom is to light a minimum of two candles.

    (See Shulchan Aruch Siman 263:1)

    2) It is a Mitzvah to have a lot of candles.

    The prevalent Minhag is to start off lighting two candles, and to add an additional candle for each subsequent child that is born to the family, e.g. a family with four children lights six candles.”

    #1211086
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LB: You wrote The prevalent Minhag is to start off lighting two candles, and to add an additional candle for each subsequent child that is born to the family, e.g. a family with four children lights six candles.

    True, but there is also a common minhag (and I don’t know the source) that when a woman starts having children, and she is home, lights an odd number of candles. So when she has her second child she lights five candles; a third child it remains at five candles; a fourth child seven candles and so on.

    #1211087
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I believe you iacisrmma. It’s nice to find sources of variation. Halacha For Today continued with…

    However, whenever lighting at home the amount that is usually lit must be adhered to, and may not be lessened. (See Rama ibid. and Biur Halacha Dibur Hamaschil SheShakcha.)

    Even if the woman of the house is not present and the husband or another family member is lighting, they must light the same amount of candles that the woman usually lights every week in that home. (Ruling of Rav Nisim Karelitz Shlita quoted in Ohr Haner Perek 1:5 footnote 31)”

    #1211088
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB- Did you read my above posts where I already brought this information for you from the Shemiras Shabbos k’hilchasa?

    Iacisrmma- that is really interesting! I have never heard that. The SSK mentioned several minhagim but I don’t remember seeing that.

    #1211089
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    LU: Probably and then it was exciting when I stumbled upon it so it felt new. Thanks for putting it out there and reminding me 🙂

    #1211090
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB – np, just want to make sure you realize that the source I brought (well known and accepted sefer written by a well-known and accepted Rav) is more authoritative than the source you brought (random on-line source as far as I know).

    It could be that “Halacha for today” is very reliable and that he is quoting from reliable Sefarim, but I just want to make sure you are aware that you can’t accept everything you read online, and it’s good to at least check who they are quoting or find out if they are considered reliable and in case to realize that they are probably not as authoritative as (most) actual Sefarim and are not a real “source”.

    #1211091
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Rabbi Eliezer Krohn

    Bringing magazines and Siddurim int the bathroom

    Shiur.so good. Talks about this

    #1211092
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    sounds interesting. My mother keeps taking my magazines out of the bathroom, so I should probably listen to this.

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