November 1, 2021 2:29 am at 2:29 am #2023012
1. Lubavitch believes their Rebbe is Hashem.
Chabad thinks that Hashem is Hashem and ain oid milvado. No one in Chabad corelates a Rebbe to Hashem and anyone who does is not part of Chabad and probably isn’t Jewish either. on the contrary the Rebbe has maamorim and sichas explaining hashem echad and ein oid milvado.
2. the Lubavitcher Rebbe is similar to Shabsei Tzvi (yemachshemo)
Shabsai Tzvi Told everyone that he was moshiach. not only has the Rebbe never proclaimed anything similar to this but he was openly against Chassidim who did. Shabsei Tzvi made thousands do aveiros. the Rebbe did the exact opposite and caused hundreds of thousands to do mitzvas.
3. Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is alive
All Lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe’s legacy is alive. The Rebbe’s legacy continues to live. Everyone normal in Lubavitch believes that the Rebbe has halachically passed away and thus kaddish Shiva and the rest applies.
I know there will be pushbacks and examples of a few people doing stupid stuff that doesn’t represent Chabad. please don’t think I’m an apikoros because I serve Hashem in a different derech. I am not here to bring hate to anyone and i truly have an ahava for you (assuming your Jewish) even if i disagree whether I’m an oived avoide zorah or not. People don’t realize it but when they spew spaghetti out of their mouths about Chabad it really hurts and causes Lubavitchers to grow up hating their “oppressors”.
I really hope the mods accept this as i think its an important topic and i tried keeping the lishoinis down (except for the spaghetti).
P.S. haw wos my zpelingNovember 1, 2021 2:50 am at 2:50 am #2023023rightwriterParticipant
Most of what you are saying is not exactly black and white but why are you bringing up this topic just to start up strife and sinas chinam as usual? Nobody cares everyone can believe what they want and everyone does what they believe. You are only bringing up this topic to try to prove that everyone is against you. Move on. And the mods better just close this troll topic to avoid songs chinam from all sides. Enough trying to prove others right or wrong.November 1, 2021 5:26 am at 5:26 am #2023052
I brought it up because it was trending on another Thread “sleeping in a sukkah” at first it was a few comments but its becoming a big thing on that thread so I thought it would be better to have a separate thread. no I’m not bringing this out of the blue or cause I’m bored.November 1, 2021 9:29 am at 9:29 am #2023046aposhiteyidParticipant
Maybe hes just looking to have some fun ( chabad topics are usually very contreversial, so fun) as that is the main point of the coffeeroomNovember 1, 2021 9:31 am at 9:31 am #2023063NoveltyParticipant
I’m not Chabad, but I spent plenty of time in Chabad when I first became frum. I agree with what farbycoffee wrote.
Chabad is has multiple facets. Ultimately, the meshichists pushed me, personally, away from Chabad, but there are plently of non-meshichists as well. In fact, the entire Morristown Yeshiva, in New Jersey, is opposed to the meshichist issue, from what I understand.
Even within the meshichist movement you can have very normal, intelligent, wonderful people who believe that the Rebbe was/is Moshiach, and that he’s been “hidden” or whatever. Which is certainly not mainstream thought, but still not avodah zara.
I’ve only ever encountered a few crazies who get all mixed up and think that the Rebbe was anything higher than that. And they were notably nuts. Like, admitable to a mental asylum nuts.November 1, 2021 9:32 am at 9:32 am #2023071FrumWhereParticipant
I agree with rightwriter. Your entire premise is a non-sequitur. You present three “lies” about which there is no disagreement. No one ever claimed that Chabad thinks the Rebbe is Hashem, or that he is like Shabsai Tzvi, or that he is alive. So you’re just presenting a troll post to bring out the worst in the expected responders. Leave it alone, and post about the World Series or something.November 1, 2021 9:34 am at 9:34 am #2023070leibyParticipant
It just so happens that every yeshivish rebbe seems to think that it’s very important to teach how bad chabad is and that the rebbe was a ” koifer”. I’m not sure why, he passed on close to 30 years ago, unless maybe they think he’s still alive 😉.November 1, 2021 9:36 am at 9:36 am #2023119
Did the Rebbe ever say that he is Meshiach? Hilel says that their will be no limos hamoshiach. Explains the Rav Abarbanel that techiyas hamesim will occur with the coming of Meshiach and no forty years will be in between them. That a dead person should become meshiach only works with this minority view.November 1, 2021 9:36 am at 9:36 am #2023137
The rebbe himself believed he was hashem in a guf (he said so himself), maybe Chabad disagrees.November 1, 2021 9:53 am at 9:53 am #2023147
K-cup, maybe you misunderstood. Every Jew has a Chelek Eloach Mimaal. Kol yisrael yesh lohem chelek.November 1, 2021 10:21 am at 10:21 am #2023154🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I live in a city that is heavily lubavitch but predominantly mashichist (or seemingly so). This is my exposure to lubavitch. If it is wrong, I fault the mainstream chabadniks who don’t do much/enough to come out against them. If it wasn’t for two families I am very close with I never would have known the mashichists weren’t the only chabad.November 1, 2021 11:25 am at 11:25 am #2023161
@ reb eliezer
I did not misunderstand, it was posted in the coffee room many times, he said of himself he is “aztmus umihus…” of hashem “areingeshtelt in a guf’. I do t have exactly where and when it was said, but he said it more than once, and not a out all Jews, but about himself. It was discussed a lot on the coffee room if you search it. (Chabad will of course simply say it’s not at face value, we don’t understand chassidus, only Chabad Chassidim learn chassidus.)November 1, 2021 11:26 am at 11:26 am #2023157commonsaychelParticipant
TROLL, TROLL TROLL and did i foget to add TROLLNovember 1, 2021 11:48 am at 11:48 am #2023188
K-cup, is Chabad more important than Hashem when it comes to capitalizing?November 1, 2021 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #2023196
@ reb eliezer, I see a bunch of typos in my post, what can I say? it should read Hashem capitol H. The Rebbe still said what he saidNovember 1, 2021 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #2023197
Chabad – Cherev al Habadim, sword when separationNovember 1, 2021 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #2023198
Do you mitzvos because Hashem says so or the Rebbi says so?November 1, 2021 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #2023205Yserbius123Participant
Just to pick on one point:
Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is alive
There absolutely are Lubavitchers who believe the last Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L is alive as evidenced by numerous pamphlets, websites, and other paraphernalia that they have produced. They have made it abundantly clear that they don’t believe he ever really died.November 1, 2021 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #2023221
There’s the thread “Sleeping in the Succah” that spins off with Chabad. I will not repeat all here but you are invited to check it out and unfortunately what farbycoffe is saying is not true about many Lubavitchers.
I must say I am absolutely shocked how many Lubavitchers, hopefully not most, think and talk about their Rebbe. It definitely is very similar to Christianity. Check out that thread if you are interested.
I will say here again that no Rebbe runs the world in any shape or form and it is apikorerses to say that regardless of what sichos say what or excuses and explanations you want to give.November 1, 2021 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #2023195
The claim “No one in Chabad corelates a Rebbe to Hashem” is blatant ‘Meshichist’ disinformation.
Idolatrous rebbe worship in Chabad is very significant and constantly increasing.
A number of senior rabbis have compared the present Chabad movement to early Christianity, which was started by religious Jews who davened in religious Jewish synagogues at the time.
This video on a large Chabad website claims the rebbe is “Elokus” (l’havdil).
Many Chabad rabbis “pasken” that the Rebbe IS moshiach NOW, meaning they believe he is alive NOW.
Major Chabad website1 openly claims the deceased Chabad Rebbe is Moshiach and a prophet, whose physical presence was concealed, but he has ‘supernatural’ abilities!November 1, 2021 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #2023231
Yeserbius, what to Moshiachisten mean when they say
יחי אדוננו?November 1, 2021 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #2023268
The claim “No one in Chabad corelates a Rebbe to Hashem” is blatantly misleading IMHO.
A video from the major Chabad site “Stump the Rabbi”, available on youtube, claims the rebbe is “Elokus” (l’havdil).
“Should a Lubavitcher chassid read biographies written about the Rebbe?”
On the psakdin dot net, site, there is a “psak” from many Chabad rabbis affirming “the Messianic sovereignty of His Mjesty King Moshiach rabbi M. M. Shnaiorson the Lubavitch’er Rebbe”.
In another youtube video, a senior Chabad rabbi claims the rebbe runs the world.
‘Rabbi Cunin: “The Rebbe runs the world and will save us from exile”‘
The major Chabad website chabadnj, openly claims the deceased Chabad Rebbe is Moshiach and a prophet, whose physical presence was concealed, but he has ‘supernatural’ abilities!
It is impossible to claim that Chabad Meshichist theology is compatible with traditional Judaism.November 1, 2021 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #2023275GadolhadorahParticipant
Yes, there are some misguided chabadniks who run up and down Eastern Parkway with yellow flags singing songs but there are a considerably greater number of fringe Litvishe and sephardeshe yiddin running around with their own version of moishichist meshugaas. This tendency to paint either side with a broad brush is childish and doesn’t reflect reality. Everyone is entitled to their wrong opinion on when/how/where z’man moishiach will arrive but hopefully all will agree in one way or another, sooner is better than later.November 1, 2021 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #2023298
Gadolha – never, not once, was there anyone who claimed that rav shach or the steipler were divine beings, the essence of god wrapped in a body, prayed to them, or believed that they can read all of their thoughts from heaven, or that they didn’t die, or that we do mitzvos because they said to do them.
The fringiest Litvishe just say it’s assur to work and other extreme views that are not at odds with the 13 ikkarim.
The comparison is missing a huge exclusive problem in chabad. We all have issues, but theirs is unique.November 1, 2021 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #2023311Shimon NodelParticipant
So then are their giyurim kosher or not?November 1, 2021 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #2023313shlucha22Participant
From what i understand (which might not be very much) is that there are 2 opinions regarding who can be Mashiach. 1 is that a person who is not alive cant be Mashiach and another is that a person who was killed cant be Mashiach and that, i believe, is one of the places the difference in opinion comes from, since the Rebbe wasnt killed, people think he can be Mashiach. (i’m not a mishechist, i heard this from a family member who is)
Also a lot of time when people say the Rebbe is alive, they dont necessarily mean it literally, they are saying that just because the Rebbe isnt physically with us it doesnt mean he has stopped guiding us and leading us. its a bit similar to the concept of Yaakov Avinu lo Meis, we can still be mekushar to the Rebbe etcNovember 1, 2021 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #2023332
Frumwhere look at other threads and youl see what im saying>
RIGHTJEW. find me a source from Chabad. org and il be convinced. there ARE fanatics and people who take things out of proportion but I LIVE in Chabad I don’t need sources or rebeim or mashgichim to tell me what I’m seeing. I see fanatics all the time and I realize why its important to give kids attention or thell grow up like them.November 1, 2021 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #2023335
RIGHTJEW The vidoe you brought have harav Paltiel Sheyichye does not say that the rebbe is g-d R’L but he is saying that a rebbe is more connected to havayeh. Everything and everyone has nitzus elokus in them and inorder to understand this you have to have a lubavitcher background, if not youl probably take it the wrong way. “hashem echad” also means that everything is one with the world and the world is created out of havaye. Rabbi paltiel is not saying that a rebbe is god, that would destory the purpose of a rebbe. the purpose of a rebbe is to speak the same language as the people while being more cennected to hashem.November 1, 2021 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #2023331
What you’re referring to in the “killed” vs “dying” is a diyuk that messianic lubavitchers make in a rambam, which chooses to use rhe word killed rather than death. This would beg the question…why would it make a difference? If the point is that a candidate for moshiach must accomplish his mission, then once he leaves the world, he has not fulfilled that task and is therefore disqualified for being considered moshiach.
Then the question remains why the rambam chose the word “killed” , and there’s a very simple reason – he was coming “la’afukei” to exclude, the christian claims that yushke was moshiach. There is only one opinion in the gemara that moshiach can be “min hameisim”, from the dead, and that if he is so he must be as great as Daniel, which the lubavitcher rebbe most definitely was not.
Yes, yaakov lo meis. Eliyohu also didn’t. But everyone else… Moshe rabbeinu, dovid hamelech….the lubavitcher rebbe was greater than all of them? it just seems that they’re trying to find a source for the idea of someone not dying, and then attributing it to their rebbe, because it’s impossible that their leader would leave them – also, the divinity complex makes his death impossible as well.November 1, 2021 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2023333☕️coffee addictParticipant
“1 is that a person who is not alive cant be Mashiach and another is that a person who was killed cant be Mashiach and that, i believe, is one of the places the difference in opinion comes from, since the Rebbe wasnt killed, people think he can be Mashiach. (i’m not a mishechist, i heard this from a family member who is)“
שלמה המלך wasn’t killed, why is the Lubavitcher rebbe any better than him?November 1, 2021 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2023334
shlucha, being mekasher to a Rebbe after he is deceased is not a Lubavitche thing. Yidden of all stripes and in all times davened and daven at the kevarim of our holy tzaddikim.
But the difference is that many Lubavitcher still think there Rebbe is alive often saying יחי אדוננו or יחי המלך.
Many Lubavitche think that the Rebbe runs the world.
Lubavitche have decided that there Rebbe is Moshiach.
These three ideologies all rolled into one are very similar to the cult of Christianity. Thinking that the Rebbe runs the world is pure apikorses.November 1, 2021 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #2023342Yserbius123Participant
@philosopher They mean that “Rav Schneerson is alive”. Sorry if my post is confusing, I was responding to the initial comment where the fellow says “3. Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is alive
WRONG”. That is actually wrong, since many believe he is still alive.November 1, 2021 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #2023357
Do Non-Moshichists Lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe is not Moshiach?November 1, 2021 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #2023368provaxxParticipant
Yes, in fact the Chief Rabbi of Tzefat, Rabbi Levi Bistritzky, ZT”L, himself a non-Meshichist Lubavitcher had both legs broken by a crazy Meshichist in a car.November 1, 2021 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #2023376
Increasingly you’ll find non-messianics say “well, he could be…we just want moshiach whoever he is”. Held to their word, few in my experience will give a simple “no” to the question. The same way they will not say “no” to a question if they think a rebbe is the essence of god wrapped in a body.November 1, 2021 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #2023405sifsei chachamimParticipant
When did you stop beating your wife?
Why would you start a thread like this?
There is not a Lubavitcher in the world who you are helping.November 1, 2021 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #2023420
Sifsei maybe that’s why I haven’t found a shidduch yet 🤣November 2, 2021 6:01 am at 6:01 am #2023492aposhiteyidParticipant
How would you kow that the Rebbe was not greater than Daniel?
Only Hashem can know.
That’s not to say the Rebbe was, but you would never know and cant make such a statement.November 2, 2021 9:20 am at 9:20 am #2023511
Is this what Jews are really concerned with in 2021?November 2, 2021 9:21 am at 9:21 am #2023502
Aposhitehyid; owing to chazal’s idea of yeridas hadoros, nobody in a later generation is greater than that of a previous one. If Hashem has thousands of tzadikim, neviim and chachamim who were all greater than even our greatest, He would take one of them. There’s a limit to the “no one knows who’s greater” idea that the rambam writes about – it’s also more about nekudas habechira than actual madrega, meaning I can look at a tzadik and know that objectively he’s on a high madrega, but his relative level of chashivus would depend on factors that a person cannot know, such as nisyonos etcNovember 2, 2021 9:48 am at 9:48 am #2023546
YO: You’re still a believer in the Christian calendar counting the years of their lord?November 2, 2021 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #2023612
We live by the Gregorian calendar, yes. I highly doubt you schedule your eye exam on 7th of Kislev.November 2, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2023615shlucha22Participant
Just to clarify in case people didnt get it: i’m not a mishechist, the killed vs dying thing, i heard from a family member who is, so they were talking from what they know and i was passing that on. i also never said that the Rebbe didnt pass away. last time i checked Yaakov Avinu is buried in mearas hamachpela, but his legacy still lives on. I never compared the Rebbe to Eliyahu Hanavi who didnt pass away.
and of course all these concepts can apply to other Rebbes and Tzaddikim, just happens to be that this thread is on Lubavitch.
Also i think it is a real shame that a lot of people’s impression of lubavitch is from these crazies who are really a minority but they are so loud, that other people go unnoticed.November 2, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2023620
ujm, he does not believe in it when he uses it as the most of the world does. When we use a kapital, chapter for chumash, do we believe in the goyim’s believe who compiled it?November 2, 2021 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #2023624Yukel faceParticipant
All these problems with atzmus umhus melubash bguf distortion to mean avoda zara – how about the shchina resting in the aron (the taana of the goyim at the churban – see medrash eicha in the begging) which is seemingly the same if not worseNovember 2, 2021 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #2023642
farbycoffe: “Rabbi paltiel is not saying that a rebbe is god”
You are playing the typical Chabad shell game here.
Paltiel clearly said that the rebbe is “Ein Sof”.
I know of no beings or creations that are “Ein Sof” in authentic Judaism other than Hashem.
“the world is created out of havaye”
No, the world was created from NOTHING.
Almost every commentary on the first verse of Genesis describes the Universe as created “yesh miayin” (from nothing), so you are admitting that Chabad has a different, incompatible theology than what the Torah sages have been teaching us for at least a thousand years.November 2, 2021 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #2023654
YO: There’s a big difference between using the months, which has no religious connotations, and using the year, which counts the birth of their Avoda Zora.
RE: There’s no Avoda Zora connotations in the perukim.November 2, 2021 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2023653
Shechina is a concept clearly outlined in the seforim – it is not a physical manifestation of Hashem cv”s or another “part” of Hashem. It is his restricted presence that he makes palpable – it can be compared to covering a bright light with many levels of sheets. When you remove some layers from one area, the light is visible, but it’s really all there underneath. This is how the tanna answered the goyishe philosopher who asked him “how much shechina do you have?”, He did use a different moshol though…a dark building opening up a small window to let in light.
Same thing with the shechina being in a specific place – it’s wherever Hashem opens up the window kiviyachol
That has no bearing on a claim that gods essence has become wrapped in a body. Also, atzmus elokus is not a term for the shechina – if you have a source that says otherwise, please let me know as i am not an expert in chasidus.November 2, 2021 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #2023696
Ujm…no problem. Whatever you say.November 2, 2021 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #2023712Shimon NodelParticipant
I am curious though about chabad geirus. Does anyone know anything about that?
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