September 14, 2021 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #2007805hujuParticipant
There are some people – frum, not frum, not even Jewish – who do not want to take the COVID vaccine because they are concerned that it could cause a loss of fertility. It is true that at this time, there is insufficient evidence to know whether or not the vaccine has any effect on fertility, so the concern over this possible problem is genuine. (There is some inconclusive evidence that the vaccine has no impact on fertility, but it is too soon to say that, as the science would need more evidence.)
So here is the hard, halachic question: Is a person who loses fertility by taking the vaccine, and therefore loses the ability to carry out the mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply, in breach of halacha for taking the vaccine? Discuss. (For what it is worth, this question stumps me, but, of course, I am not as smart as I pretend to be.)September 14, 2021 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2007822ubiquitinParticipant
“so the concern over this possible problem is genuine. ”
I dont fully understand this? why the concern? Just because it is new ?
I saw a new Oreo flavor “Apple Cider Donut Sandwich” To the best of my knowledge NO study has been done to know whether or not the cookie has any effect on fertility .So it would seem that the concern over this possible problem is genuine.
So here is the easy, halachic question: Is a person who loses fertility by eatign the cookie, and therefore loses the ability to carry out the mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply, in breach of halacha for eating the cookie?September 14, 2021 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #2007826Shimon NodelParticipant
Covid is proven to affect fertility. Bari v’shema bari adifSeptember 14, 2021 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #2007831
Please stop with this misleading hypothetical question narischkeit. No, the vaccine does not effect fertility. Ten months of millions of women taking it has proven that much. It is not “too soon to say”, it’s literally false.
COVID, on the other hand, can potentially impact fertility. So perhaps if someone doesn’t take the vaccine, gets COVID, and now can no longer have babies they’ve been oiver on pru u’revu? Maybe they are also oiver on Lo Sa’amod by convincing someone not to get vaccinated and then watching them get hospitalized?September 14, 2021 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #2007836Reb EliezerParticipant
I agree over here with ubi’s sarcasm. If a study was made indicating concerns then worry otherwise the benefits for the mother and fetus outweigh the concerns.September 14, 2021 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #2007850
@ubiquitin, you want o be infertile? no problem NIH has a list of all the clinical trials you can be part of,
c’mon manSeptember 14, 2021 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #2007897
It’s really funny that people get annoyed when it is pointed out that cell-based shots may affect fertility despite 1. prestigious scientists, virologists and doctors voicing their concerns regarding these vaccines causing fertility issues 2. The FDA is REQUIRING that Pfizer submit results of studies in 2025 on this particular subject AND the children born of mothers who got the shot while pregnant (I’m not sure how reliable the conclusion of these study may be though because Pfizer themselves will be conducting these studies…) 3. Those who are vaccinated are absolutely not protected from getting infected with covid although many claim “it’s not as severe” but plenty of people had covid despite being vaccinated.
I do not believe covid causes long-term fertility complications, as there are practically tens of thousands of frum people globally who had covid and went on to have children while only a small minority of frum men, and even less women, were vaccinated and do not have the info to judge if they had any issues.September 14, 2021 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #2007875besalelParticipant
ubiquin really hit it on the head. I will add the reverse also: there are virtually no studies which discuss the vaccine’s correlation to causing alzheimers. there are no studies comparing whether or not the vaccine causes muscular sclerosis or lung cancer.September 14, 2021 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #2007895
@mod29 your right, its before YK, but you should have not let his stupid comment eitherSeptember 14, 2021 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #2007907
“COVID, on the other hand, can potentially impact fertility.”
I’m pretty sure you just made that upSeptember 14, 2021 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #2007913
@syag-lchochma There are several studies showing that COVID has a negative effect on fertility in both men and women. (“COVID-19 impact on reproduction and fertility” – PMC8083847). Nothing certain, but a lot of very good data. COVID-19 absolutely effects pregnancy. Also, people on ventilators and dead are much less likely to give birth.September 14, 2021 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #2007914BenephraimParticipant
If you eat garlic you increase fertility. If you don’t you are at status quo. If you vax you lose it. So what happens if you make a cocktail with קנאבעל and the vax?September 14, 2021 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #2007940
@philosopher “Only a small minority of frum men and women are vaccinated” Maybe in your community. Even in frum places with atrocious vaccination rates (which is perhaps one or two major frum communities in the US), they rarely drop below 40%. I think something like 75% of eligible Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel are vaccinated, only slightly less than the national average.
Also, I’m pretty sure that when tens of thousands of frum people got COVID nebbuch, plenty of them were niftar or left too weak to have children for the time being. Not to mention pregnant women who miscarried.
So despite what you claim, we actually do have enough information to determine that the shema of getting COVID is still far worse than the vadai of getting a vaccine.September 14, 2021 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #2007942GadolhadorahParticipant
Given the demonstrated efficacy of the vaccine, especially in the context of materially reducing the risk of hospitalization and death in the unlikely event of a breakthrough infection, pikuach nefesh trumps (excuse the term) paru u’ravu 100 percent of the time.September 14, 2021 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #2007947
@besalel, you obviously have no background in science and ubquin does not either, I guess you never heard of long tail exposure that can take years to manifest itself,WTC toxins for example.
Many people [myself included[ with a background in science would pass on being used as Guinea Pigs and sit this one out for the foreseeable futureSeptember 14, 2021 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #2007949
Covid affects fertility! One out of every 50 people who contract it die. And dead people can’t have children.September 14, 2021 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #2008075HealthParticipant
Syag -“COVID, on the other hand, can potentially impact fertility.”
“I’m pretty sure you just made that up”
I’m not him, so I don’t know if he made it up or not.
But I’ll tell you, a lot of Viruses cause Infertility!
It’s too early to tell if CoV-2 causes infertility.
The first Coronavirus called SARS does:
“Xu J, Qi L, Chi X, Yang J, Wei X, Gong E, Peh S, Gu J. Orchitis: a complication of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) Biol Reprod. 2006;”
Now they are doing research on Coronavirus #2:
“Shen Q, Xiao X, Aierken A, Liao M, Hua J. The ACE2 expression in Sertoli cells and germ cells may cause male reproductive disorder after SARS-CoV-2 infection. OSF Preprint. 2020.”
So these Anti-Vaxxers will say & do anything to make sure that you don’t vaccinate!
For right Now – the best thing is to vaccinate for Reproductive Health!
Doesn’t mean that this guideline will Never change.
Maybe I shouldn’t have let the Cat out of the Bag, because anybody reading YWN CR, some of them, will run to get Vaxxed.
Now I know why there are 2 org. that deal with Infertility, instead of just one, in the Frum community.
We must have a lot of Anti-Vaxxers!September 14, 2021 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #2008073
1 out of 50 who contract Covid then die? Do you mean after 120 years?
The survival rate of Covid is somewhere around 99.9%.September 14, 2021 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #2008069
@mobico, the moribity rate [ for uneduated people the cases of people who die from it] is 0.016 or less the a 1/4 of 1% or in other words 42.3 million got it and 662 K dies, so not even close to your fabricated numberSeptember 14, 2021 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #2007922anonymouse1079Participant
@syag l’chochma- a study out of Israel found that COVID can cause a 50% decrease in sperm volume, concentration and motility.September 14, 2021 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #2008100ubiquitinParticipant
“you want o be infertile? no problem NIH has a list of all the clinical trials you can be part of,”
Why is that aimed at me? Very confusing
“I guess you never heard of long tail exposure that can take years to manifest itself,WTC toxins for example.”
OOh I’m excited to hear you background in science what kind of long term effects are found n those with 1 or 2 exposures to WTC toxins?September 14, 2021 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #2008101
Worldwide, the current best estimates have 219 million total cases of Covid. 4.55 million have died. Do your own math.September 14, 2021 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #2008109YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
I hope I’m not supposed to be fact checking the math…September 14, 2021 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #2008105
Yesurbus, you are mixing together two things. With graditional vaccinations our communities have roughly average vaccination rates which is a high percentage. Almost every frum vaccinates their kids with traditional vaccines. However most of us had covid and almost no one is opting for these cell-based vaccinations with the exception of the heimishe communities in Israel where I am assuming the percentage of the frum people taking these shots are high.September 14, 2021 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #2008107
Yesurbus, you are mixing together two things. With graditional vaccinations our communities have roughly average vaccination rates which is a high percentage. Almost every frum vaccinates their kids with traditional vaccines. However most of us had covid and almost no one is opting for these cell-based vaccinations with the exception of the heimishe communities in Israel where I am assuming the percentage of the frum people taking these shots are high.
And obviously, we have different opinions regarding whether these covid vaccines are safer than getting covid. I say it is way better to build up ones immune system by eating raw, unprocessed food, doing excersize, staying active and getting enough sunshine. Repurposed medications and other therapies can be used for those who end up in the hospital.
But I say and keep on saying, everyone should do what they feel most comfortable with regarding the covid vaccinations.September 14, 2021 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #2008106
Your numbers are obviously grossly inaccurate, well beyond the point of absurdity.September 14, 2021 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2008115
Let’s go group-by-group:
1) Those who are of age, vaccine seems to be a must and most people understand it. Many of them are already blessed with childen, grand and great-grandchildren
2) Those who are young, did not have COVID and are social distancing – a reasonable question why experiment with a vaccine, may make sense waiting
3) Those who are young, did not have COVID and are NOT social distancing – they are highly likely to get Delta and thus, the question is: what is more risky – virus from Wuhan Lab or vaccine from Pfizer. Both not tested in long term and somewhat risky. Only a Chinese asset would claim that virus is less risky, though.
4) Those who already had COVID. Teiku for now. Maybe have one vaccine and be careful.September 14, 2021 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2008114
HaKatan – I researched and found the numbers, and did the math. Did you do either of these things?September 14, 2021 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #2008116
COVID definitely affects fertility. Not even talking about niftarim here, deep coughing and sneezing are certainly not attractive. In a long term, a yeshiva bochur who did not have seychel to vaccinate may lose out on a shver who could afford to social distance his family.September 15, 2021 1:25 am at 1:25 am #2008129
@mobico, even using your number it equates to .020% or less then 1/4 of 1 %, or 99.75% get it and dont die and that includes third world countries, people with comorbity and immune compromisedSeptember 15, 2021 1:25 am at 1:25 am #2008130
Yes. I did.
You could also look around at various communities and workplaces where you live (if you live in a civilized country). No way are those numbers remotely possible.
As well, it seems very ill-advised (no pun intended) to take the numbers from the world as a whole and then use that as a basis for advice you give to people in civilized countries. It would make much more sense to use just the numbers from that country or, at most, from only first-world countries.September 15, 2021 1:30 am at 1:30 am #2008139
mobico, morbidity numbers are not well defined: what is a case? symptomatic? PCR? leading to antibodies? anyone who chanced on a virus for 1 minute? for 1 hour? There are estimates of how many true cases are there, but they are just that – estimates. These numbers are hard to compare across countries.
what is true – taht too many people died, and, at this point, many of these deaths are preventable in rich countries through their own and others’ vaccination … So, I think – people who do something inappropriately risky are doing an aveirah at that moment. those who refrain from taking vaccine when it is appropriate do an aveirah every moment they are not taking it.September 15, 2021 1:30 am at 1:30 am #2008148Shimon NodelParticipant
Some occasional harchaka from your spouse is a big segula for avoiding a divorce! If you able to be marchik your shver… that is a double segula for shalom bayis!September 15, 2021 7:58 am at 7:58 am #2008199GadolhadorahParticipant
There have been no double blind clinical trials conducted that would show that those who believe and spread the constantly changing conspiracy theories about the risks of vaccination are also likely to incur higher rates of mortality and morbidity by foregoing proven medical interventions but that is a logical and intuitive expectation even without a peer reviewed study.September 15, 2021 11:57 am at 11:57 am #2008211yaakov doeParticipant
Mortality from Covid due to vaccine hesitancy definitely has been proven to end fertility for men and women of all ages. No studies have disproven this reported fact.September 15, 2021 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #2008230
Interesting that I haven’t seen anyone point out, that for what concerns this discussion, we should probably be looking at statistics for those under 50(or around that age). Around 34k people in the USA from that category died from covid. Most of which likely had preexisting conditions.
Anonymous1079-can you please provide details of that study? Or provide a link? (Obviously with a DOT replacing the . as links aren’t allowed….) Would be interested to check it out.September 15, 2021 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #2008240
Why is 34k people an insignificant number?September 15, 2021 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #2008242
Although its a smaller study, but the alleged concern is unfounded so not sure that a more robust study is necessary.
mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines and Male Fertility: Facts and Myths
Hana M. El Sahly, MD, reviewing Gonzalez DC et al. JAMA 2021 Jun 17
Immunization with mRNA COVID-19 vaccines had no effect on sperm parameters.
Although the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines (BNT1262b2 and mRNA-1273) are safe and effective, their rollout was met with some public resistance based on claims of a negative effect on fertility. Despite reassuring findings in animal models, human data are lacking regarding pre- and post-vaccine fertility parameters. Investigators enrolled male volunteers (age range, 18–50) eligible to receive the Emergency Use Authorized (EUA) mRNA COVID-19 vaccines. Semen samples were provided pre-vaccination and 70 days after the second dose; semen volume, sperm concentration, sperm motility, and total motile sperm count (TMSC) were measured.
Among 45 participants (median age, 28), 47% received BNT1262b2 and 53% received mRNA-1273. All semen parameters increased between baseline and after dose 2: volume (2.2 to 2.7 mL), sperm concentration (26 to 30 million/mL), motility (58% to 65%), and TMSC (36 to 44 million). No participants became azoospermic after vaccination.September 15, 2021 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #2008244Baal TeshuvahParticipant
Have any vaccines every been shown to affect fertility? If not, why would this one all of a sudden? And if your response is that you’re worried about mRNA, go get Johnson and Johnson!September 15, 2021 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #2008292ujmParticipant
BT: The argument is the other vaccines underwent far far longer testing prior to approval. Including fertility testing.September 15, 2021 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #2008298
One of my kids works in a fertility clinic and they are beyond careful about covid and all the precautions. These big doctors, very well known, said this is a ridiculous claim and encourage the vaccine. I trust their word better than any researcher or anonymous poster.September 16, 2021 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #2008478
2scents-According to CDC there are between 12k and 61k annual flu deaths. 34k deaths over a yr and a half is about 11.5k deaths (for the age group we specified)
Syag obviously no one is saying that it is a medical consensus that the vax affects fertility. But if a study show it indeed does shouldn’t we look at it, and examine it, instead of throwing it under the rug?September 16, 2021 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #2008480
Torahvalues – absolutely! And my knowledge shouldn’t be enough for you. But when I rely on a doctor, it is with the knowledge that he already did the research and checked out those studies and the “psak” i get from this doctor is based on all of that.September 16, 2021 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #2008482
Syag, your likely 100% correct in trusting your doctor. But we all know not all doctors are in agreement on this Vax. Most seem to be pro. But not all. Not a doctor I know and used to go to. (quite a choshuv doctor too…) And he reasons simply that vaccines have pulled after longer time on the shelf than the covid vax has been around. I don’t believe he tells older people not to take it, as the benefit outweighs the potential risk, but for a young healthy person he wouldn’t encourage.September 16, 2021 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #2008485
I should have clarified, I was speaking to the fertility aspect.September 17, 2021 12:23 am at 12:23 am #2008487HealthParticipant
TVOP -“but for a young healthy person he wouldn’t encourage.”
That’s nice in a normal world.
But if you don’t Vaxx, there aren’t a lot of treatment options.
In this country – a lot of hospitals have nixxed Ivermectin and other things that work.
So with the Delta variant and No vaccine, the choice becomes a good chance of death, not just an issue of infertility!September 17, 2021 12:39 am at 12:39 am #2008493
The core question is – all vaccines by now were tested on a very large number of people, but they were not tested over long period of time. So, then the question is: during long-term testing of vaccines in last, say, 40 years: is it often that a vaccine is seen as safe after 1 year, but problems are discovered after a longer time period. Note, this is not about complications discovered simply by testing more people, but specifically 3-5 years after a specific patient got vaccinated.
I did a very brief search of vaccine trial reports several months ago and did not find any. Medicines seems to be more prone to side effects over time, as they are taken continuously. Maybe, others can find examples, and when we will have a baseline: say, 5 out of 50 vaccines had a side effect found after 3 years and how severe they typically are.September 17, 2021 10:49 am at 10:49 am #2008546
While concerns about long-term effects of vaccines are legitimate, it is important to be aware that the organized anti-vaccine industry has targeted this issue as a way to sow doubt and confusion about COVID-19 vaccines. According to the Center for Countering Digital Hate, professional anti-vaccine activists organized a meeting in the fall of 2020 to create messaging that would decrease acceptance of COVID-19 vaccines once available.
Take a look at counterhate (dot) com/playbook
It gives a glimpse of the anti-vaccination playbook and how to use the Covid19 Vaccine to further their agenda, including making claims such as the vaccine being unsafe in the long term.September 17, 2021 10:49 am at 10:49 am #2008543hujuParticipant
The responses to my (the opening poster’s) halachic question are interesting. At this frum website, the commentators/yentas who responded to the opening post challenged the science, but very few (if any) addressed the halachic question. And the challenges to the science were mostly unfounded or wrong.September 17, 2021 10:49 am at 10:49 am #2008542
Also, if you were to make a claim about a long-term side effect that would not be evident initially. You would also have to explain the mechanism of action or physiology of what is going on, especially if the entire claim is hypothetical and unfounded.
Otherwise, why would something be an issue down the road, but at this time not be an issue?
Wouldnt it not make sense the other way around? if the substance that is injected actually does harm, why is the harm dormant or delayed and not doing harm right now?
Of course, there is the possibility of anything being true, and I am sure more will be learned with time, but the claim needs to be substantiated or explained, otherwise, it’s unsubstantiated.
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