September 17, 2021 10:49 am at 10:49 am #20085412scentsParticipant
always ask questions
“The core question is – all vaccines by now were tested on a very large number of people, but they were not tested over long period of time. So, then the question is: during long-term testing of vaccines in last, say, 40 years: is it often that a vaccine is seen as safe after 1 year, but problems are discovered after a longer time period.”
No, this is not the core question, this is question has one intended purpose to inject fear from the unknown.
Who says 40 years is enough? why not 60 years?
Since the only way to satisfy this question is to wait 40 years, this achieves nothing but to make people hesitate and confused.
Being that hundreds of millions of people have already taken the vaccine, at this point, if your going to make a claim there needs to be some substance to base the claim on.
Unfounded far-fetched hypothetical claims have one purpose, to avoid people from taking the vaccine.September 17, 2021 10:49 am at 10:49 am #20085402scentsParticipant
“2scents-According to CDC there are between 12k and 61k annual flu deaths. 34k deaths over a yr and a half is about 11.5k deaths (for the age group we specified)”
And your point is?September 17, 2021 10:49 am at 10:49 am #2008533Reb EliezerParticipantSeptember 17, 2021 10:49 am at 10:49 am #2008516commonsaychelParticipant
Healthy boys may be more likely to be admitted to hospital with a rare side-effect of the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid vaccine that causes inflammation of the heart than with Covid itself, US researchers claim.
Their analysis of medical data suggests that boys aged 12 to 15, with no underlying medical conditions, are four to six times more likely to be diagnosed with vaccine-related myocarditis than ending up in hospital with Covid over a four-month period.September 17, 2021 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #2008563commonsaychelParticipant
@Huju, ” but very few (if any) addressed the halachic question. Very interesting this coming from somone who stated very openly that you hardly daven, once a day if that, and really don’t respect daas torah, I hope its because you decided to turn a new leaf this year and be mdakdik khalacha, if thats is the case consult your LOR not posters on a websiteSeptember 17, 2021 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #2008565
Health-“So with the Delta variant and No vaccine, the choice becomes a good chance of death”-again, if your healthy and young, then the chance of death is quite miniscule. Almost non existent. Especially with whatever treatments they do have available…don’t go by my word, just look up the numbers…
Syag-I understand that. I don’t know the exact potential possible side effects this doctor is concerned about.
2scents-I’m not claiming anything, and I have no idea how the mechanism for side effects plays out in the long term and not short term(although that concept definitely exists) My point is that not every last doctor is comfortable with young healthy people-to whom covid poses a very small risk-getting the vaccine. Thats all. Not saying I think no one should take it. Not saying that at all. Everyone can and should ask and discuss with there own doctor.September 17, 2021 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #2008583ubiquitinParticipant
“but very few (if any) addressed the halachic question”
The very first comment on the thread answered your “question”
with a halachic question the premise has to make sense, and be grounded in reality.
Even if for whatever reason you think the vaccine may cause fertility problems, (whether or not you think the new Oreo flavor does the same) It STILL isn’t a question.
People are not faulted for following doctors. Halacha in fact obligates you to do so.
Aye what do we do if Doctors disagree? Fear not ! halacha addresses that too!September 17, 2021 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #2008585
See “Covid-19: Study that claimed boys are at increased risk of myocarditis after vaccination is deeply flawed, say critics” in “The BMJ”.
The study used VAERS data to determine the rate of myocarditis in vaccinated teens. VAERS is a terrible data source as it’s all self-reported by people claiming vaccine related injury.September 17, 2021 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #2008613
@huju Regarding your “halachic question”. The reason no one gave a proper answer is because it’s not a proper question. It’s an attempt to troll and sow doubt and confusion regarding the COVID vaccine. “If the vaccine sterilizes everyone…. If the sterilization is permanent…” If if if! What if eating challah past 11pm causes a person to grow a bump on their head making them unable to put on teffilin the next day? Halachically, would that man be oiver on an aseh by eating challah at midnight?September 17, 2021 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #2008633
common > “US researchers claim.”
mahybe I missed it, but is it possible to get a title or authors of a study you are quoting?
Seems like you are quoting popular news article quoting it, what type of a site is it?September 18, 2021 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #2008663
TVOP -“Almost non existent. Especially with whatever treatments they do have available…don’t go by my word, just look up the numbers…”
From you on pg. 1:
“I don’t believe he tells older people not to take it, as the benefit outweighs the potential risk, but for a young healthy person he wouldn’t encourage.”
Typical Anti-Vaxxer Manipulation!
In only the USA from Jan.2020 till now, there were around 36,000 Deaths from Covid with people under 50 YO.
It consists of all ages, but babies are the least amount.
Now you go figure out the Rest of the World!
Are you the type that believes Covid is Not worse than a Cold?!?September 18, 2021 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #2008666
2scents-my was pretty simple-if your healthy and young, the chance of dying from covid is almost non-existent. So I find it a little difficult to say that the benefits outweigh the risks-risks that may be super far fetched, and which only a small percentage of doctors are concerned about-when the benefit itself is almost non existent. I’ll state again, everybody consult your own doctor…I’m not trying to take an anti-vax stance. I’m just observing and noting….September 19, 2021 12:09 am at 12:09 am #2008814
simple-if your healthy and young, the chance of dying from covid is almost non-existent
And the chance of being harmed by the vaccine is even smaller.September 19, 2021 2:21 am at 2:21 am #2008817ujmParticipant
“And the chance of being harmed by the vaccine is even smaller.”
So what? If the original risk is almost “non-existent”, why take another risk — even if it is “smaller”?September 19, 2021 2:22 am at 2:22 am #2008818
@torahvaluesoverparty I hear your argument. The problem is that even young, healthy people can still potentially pass COVID on to someone who maybe isn’t as young or as healthy. And with all this anti-vaccine propaganda that the frum oilem is unfortunately falling for (k’negged da’as Torah) there are unfortunately many people for whom getting COVID is incredibly dangerous and they are unprotected from all these young, healthy, COVID-19 positive kids running around.September 19, 2021 2:51 am at 2:51 am #2008838
TVOP -“your healthy and young, the chance of dying from covid is almost non-existent.”
Only in babies can you say that, because they had less than 1,000 deaths in the US from the time that they started counting.
From my previous post:
“In only the USA from Jan.2020 till now, there were around 36,000 Deaths from Covid with people under 50 YO.”September 19, 2021 9:57 am at 9:57 am #2008928
So what? If the original risk is almost “non-existent”, why take another risk — even if it is “smaller”?
Because there’s a bigger risk in not taking it.September 19, 2021 11:22 am at 11:22 am #2008933
DY > Because there’s a bigger risk in not taking it.
One research I saw was that death rate in nursing homes was 50% higher in towns with colleges. Statistics collected over multiple areas in USA. Attributed to medical students bringing it in, despite all protection measures and testing. So, the fact is that anyone who can be a host to the virus can potentially lead to someone being sick.
So, if you are a person who would be happy to help an old lady cross the road (I presume everyone here would be), then you can as well do little things to help cure the world by taking a vaccine, travelling less, not going into large gathering, etc.September 19, 2021 11:46 am at 11:46 am #2008936
Health-interesting that you say I’m “lying” when what your saying I’m lying about is technically subjective.
DY-As of August 18, around 17.5k under 45 died of covid. I believe it was the CDC that said only 6% of covid deaths had no co-morbidities. L’fi my understanding that means just 1050 completely healthy people under 45 died from covid. Out of around 15million(*confirmed cases! The actual number of cases is likely many times higher…) Are you absolutely sure that the risks from the vaccine, both that has already been shown, and possible longer term effects, is lower than the risk of being one of the 1050? My doctor isn’t.
Yserbius, I’ve said previously hat if the vaccine shows it stops transmission then fine I hear the argument, and would agree that the young and healthy should get vaxxed. But that hasn’t shown to be the case. Why else would masks be required after getting vaxxed? In fact I once heard of a study that showed that those who are vaxxed actually contained a higher viral load then those unvaxxed…September 19, 2021 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #2008948
> 1050 –
without going into your analysis –
1) you are comparing 1000 who died with “risk from vaccine”. you need to compare it with the “risk of dying from vaccine”, or risk of sickness from both. Apple to apples, or oranges to oranges. Please correct the comparison.
2) when you compare risk of covid v risk of vaccine directly – both effects are not fully known. One is from a virus that damages internal organs and triggers immune reaction, another – just triggers immune reaction. One is from Wuhan, another – from a Western lab. If you work from home and daven outside – you may argue that your chance of getting Covid is much less than certain effect of vaccine, and makes sense to wait for more info. If you are constantly exposed, then the preference for covid v vaccine should be clear.
3) co-morbidities include high blood pressure and being overweight, and also check where 6% number comes from – is it for al ages, for young people?
4) research I ‘saw is that viral load for vaccinated is way lower. Most risk for vaxed is from unvaxed. If you have a reference, we can review.September 19, 2021 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #2008947
I believe it was the CDC that said only 6% of covid deaths had no co-morbidities.
Is it okay if people with co-morbidities die?
Are you absolutely sure that the risks from the vaccine, both that has already been shown, and possible longer term effects, is lower than the risk of being one of the 1050? My doctor isn’t.
Absolutely sure is the wrong metric. If I am sick with pneumonia I might get into a car accident on the way to the doctor, but it’s still wise to go.
It is highly likely that the risk of people getting harmed from the vaccine is lower than getting harmed from Covid (even those who were once infected).September 19, 2021 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #2008951
As far as the OP is concerned, I’ll humor him and go with the assumption that he’s not trolling, and answer the question.
If someone takes the vaccine because he accepts the consensus of medical opinion that there is no negative affect on fertility, and it turns out that there is, he is an oines and was not m’vatel p’ru ur’vu.September 19, 2021 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2008932
Yserbius > with all this anti-vaccine propaganda that the frum oilem is unfortunately falling for
Can we pin-point what is the source? I have several hypotheses, each might be true to an extent. Any others?
1) Is it simply that some get info from social media and then propagate to those who do not have online source or time/inclination/skills to search? If this is so, then it shows that our community is not protected against online viruses even being in large part offline, as information still travels.
2) Community effect – when you are in a community where nobody takes precautions, you behave like everyone and then start processing information accordingly to justify that.
3) Giving up – given that community is so connected and every family has lots of kids in schools, we were often hit hard early and then there is not much hope to avoid exposure in daily life. If you crum lots of people/kids into a shul/school without good ventilation for a long time, then masks will not help much, short of N95s. Then, like in (2), you have to convince yourself that you are not doing an aveirah by giving credence to any piece of information that justifies your position.
4) Inability to see a big picture of effect on older people, etc – a lot of sickness happens in nursing homes, hospitals, etc, people, B’H are not falling down on the street. So, a little of information, ability to count, and abstract thinking is required and is not alaways avialble.
5) Even as many (most?) Rabbonim are for vaccination, and many are for various measures (capsules, testing, masking), seems like a large part of the community does not hear or does not care. Maybe eople surrounding gedolim and those in charge of media are affected like everyone else and are not emphasizing the message? For example, I saw for the first time this spring that R Edelsteon, Ponevezh, gave his first public lecture – and only to vaccinated students and behind a huge screen. I did not see anything before that he was isolating for a year before. I may have missed that, but maybe it was just not a cool story to publish?September 19, 2021 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2008953
> he is an oines and was not m’vatel p’ru ur’vu.
On the other hand, if someone fulfils pru urvu while not taking a vaccine, doing shiduchim without the mask, and having an unsafe wedding – this would be mitzva b’yadei averah. Not sure what the status of the kids would be then.September 19, 2021 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #2008965
Can we pin-point what is the source?
First show me evidence that frum people are more antivax than the general population them we can discuss your “theories”.September 19, 2021 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #2008966
then masks will not help much, short of N95s
Show me evidence that cloth masks do anything besides make you look silly under any circumstances.September 19, 2021 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #2009001
“with all this anti-vaccine propaganda that the frum oilem is unfortunately falling for”
You know what’s so frustrating about your vomit filled anti frum community posts filled with misinformation, lies,(we call this motzei shem rah) and hate? It’s how you play dumb when you get called out, refuse to accept evidence that you are wrong, refusal to retract lies, deflection and pretending you don’t know what we’re talking about or just pretend you never read the response. You write nasty lies with just your dated Amos of experience and go blaming full communities for imagined offenses that you then apply to halachos you made up.
Why in the world are these posts approved and how do you say these things without giving a care to being called out as a liar? If you aren’t a troll, you might want to consider it, you do well in trashing people with conspiracy theories and stepping over the damage without looking back. Except to laugh and pat yourself on the back.September 19, 2021 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #2008969
doing shiduchim without the mask
When you make dumb comments like this, don’t expect any intelligent comment you may occasionally chance upon to be taken seriously.September 19, 2021 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #2009005
DY, “Is it okay if people with co-morbidities die?” No of course not, you misunderstand, we are weighing the benefits vs potential risk. If a super small percentage of young/healthy die from covid, then the benefits of the vax is minimized to that same extent. Not sure what your comparison to having pneumonia is. And Lf’i this you can’t say with certainty that “It is highly likely that the risk of people getting harmed from the vaccine is lower than getting harmed from Covid”
AAQ-“you are comparing 1000 who died with “risk from vaccine”. you need to compare it with the “risk of dying from vaccine”, or risk of sickness from both.” Your correct, i’m not trying to suggest specific side effects, i’m just trying to relay the general worries and line of thinking some doctors have.September 19, 2021 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #2009022
DY > Show me evidence that cloth masks do anything
The Impact of Community Masking on COVID-19: A Cluster-Randomized Trial in Bangladesh, Sep 2021A
by Jason Abaluck et al
they randomized 600 villages with no and different types of masks and followed for 8 weeks. Surgical masks show 12% decrease of symptomatic cases and 35% in 60+ y.olds . Really cloth masks – 6%, not sure why someone wears those when surgical ones are available. SD increased by 5% (7% in the market, 0% in mosques)
Note this is a result of real-life intervention by giving out masks, not by forcing everyone to wear them. In villages with no intervention, 13% would wear them, after intervention – 42%. Also increased in mosques. Distribution of masks mattered, no additional measures – text messages, payments, ads did not matter.September 19, 2021 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2009023
DY > First show me evidence that frum people are more antivax than the general population
a good question. We may not be more, depends what your baseline is. I implicitly compare Jews I know with non-Jews I know professionally and this may not be a fair comparison. Furthermore, what we see in the street does not include people who are not in the street. Still, I’d like to understand what is the source of the movement. We have here people posting information but it is hard to pin-point what lead them to this position.September 19, 2021 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #2009025
> relay the general worries and line of thinking some doctors have.
As I mentioned, you need to compare similar effects – either deaths or serious illness in both cases.
You mentioned before about “your doctor” not recommending you a vaccine – is this what YOUR doctor say? If he is indeed so sloppy, you may look for another one. But maybe you refer to a generic internet-quoted “doctor”, then we can just disregard what they say.September 19, 2021 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #2009026
> When you make dumb comments like this
Apologize for the joke.September 19, 2021 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #2009028
@DaasYochid I don’t think the frum oilom has any more anti-vaxxers than the general population. We’re just trying to figure out where they come from and why there are as many to begin with. It’s also much more disturbing when you see these things close to home, so to speak, as opposed to some uber-liberal hippie goy, or shotgun touting redneck that we can never feel any sort of familiarity with.September 19, 2021 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #2009024
Looks like we should of put trigger warnings on this thread, it seems some people are having issues with the information being discussed.
@torahvaluesoverparty See “How do vaccinated people spread Delta? What the science says – Nature” for one example of many. There is clear evidence that vaccinated people are far less likely to spread the virus, even the Delta variant.
And this discussion about co-morbidities is dangerous narischkeit. Would you say that a mugger that hits and elderly woman isn’t liable if she dies because she had a heart problem? We are weighing the potential benefits against the risk. You’re merely ignoring the benefits and exaggerating the risks. The benefits are clear, the vaccine protects you and people around you from COVID. The risks are clear, millions of people taking each vaccine less than a few dozen cases of some sort of major issue. And it’s not “we don’t know the risks yet” because we absolutely do. No one should reject a highly beneficial treatment just because it hadn’t yet gone through four generations of testing.
I think it depends on the community. To add to your bullet points, many frum communities have an automatic and intense distrust of the government and this plays into it. Also, I know one community in particular where there is a highly influential member of the Rabbonus who is an anti-vaxxer. Because of this, no Rav wants to be seen as going against this individual, so this community has never had any major kol koirehs or campaigns to get people vaccinated (despite the pleadings of the local doctors, the Chevra Hatzalah, and setting up frum run vaccination centers). I guess they feel that keeping shalom and showing unity is more important.
I find your point about social media interesting. Several anti-vaxx Yeshivish people who don’t have regular internet access I’ve spoken with have said that they “did the research”. Which I’m not sure what it means, as “doing the research” without internet is speaking to local doctors, calling up hospitals and health centers and such. But when asked to clarify they either respond with vague statements (“Many people died from it, you know”) or admit to getting it from weird internet sites(“You can’t trust Google”).September 19, 2021 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #2009047
Yserbius, i do take back what I said aboutvaccinated being more transmissive..well um actually I don’t because I saw what I saw, and either that wasn’t my main point, my point was if it stops transmission why is “The Science” still requiring masks…
Now regarding Co-morbidities, not sure what your comparison is, don’t know what liability has to do with anything, if I understand correctly it seems you are assuming that co-morbidities don’t contribute towards a persons immune system being unable to conquer covid. Interesting.
Aaq, based on how many people try to see this doctor on a daily basis, and as a general rule he doesn’t take new patients, I don’t think i’ll be cutting ties so fast…September 19, 2021 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #2009052
Torahvalues – what?! You aren’t gonna cut ties with your trusted doctor even tho an anonymous poster thinks you should because your doctor doesn’t seem to be following his personal emotional opinion? I’m flooredSeptember 19, 2021 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #2009055
TVOP -“Health-interesting that you say I’m “lying” when what your saying I’m lying about is technically subjective”
Yes, there are many things in this world that you can make believe that you are right.
It’s called Manipulation!
There is two issues about getting Vaxxed – 1. Is – the statistics right now & the other 2. Is – the Statistics later on.
I’m sure you have No clue what I’m talking about, but if you want some info – go to Our World in Data.
Simply, like SARS (AKA Covid) #1, they upped the mortality rate to around 10%, much later!
So what should a mere human do right now?
B’H we have Gedolim and almost all of them said to get Vaxxed!
I wouldn’t have complaints if you decided Not to vaccinate a kid under 1 y.o.September 19, 2021 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #2009058
maybe something is lost in transmission or translation. Could you please clarify what exactly is your doctor saying.September 19, 2021 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #2009059
> distrust of government
I presume of “liberal” government. I think most communities were very pro-Trump. So, how does it make sense to not accept vaccines developed under Trump?
> anti-vax leaders
This might be a one off, the overall phenomenon cuts across many communities, minhagim and even gefilte fish line
> social media
I also think this is huge. I think what is happening: an average “traditional” internet user has capability to do an internet search, look up some sites, understands difference between sites. Social media user (esp second-hand one who just hears something from a social media user) does not differentiate between sources as they all appear on his wall (that’s what I heard, not a social media user myself).September 19, 2021 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2009060
More on possible reasons for anti-everything movement:
maybe Jewish community became too comfortable in US gwtting into a Yeshurun state of mind. We have established communities, built institutions, have places for comfortable vacations. So, a disruptive event that requires changing lifestyle in some way is rejected emotionally. What do you mean I cannot travel to my favorite vacation spot because of some invisible reason? I am doing so many mitzvos, please do not distract me with the unseen reality.September 19, 2021 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #2009067
“Apologize for the joke.”
DY, he wants you to apologize for your joke. Unless, like last time, he just can’t bring himself to say “I” and “apologize in the same sentence…
“What do you mean I cannot travel to my favorite vacation spot because of some invisible reason? I am doing so many mitzvos, please do not distract me with the unseen reality.”
More troll posting. I have never met a yid who said anything along those lines. Although I do know at least one who said something like, “I know there are halachas around when to daven without a Minyan or not to degrade other Jews but covid is really much more of a priority for me even if it means disregarding the halachos for the extra mile beyond science that I have chosen to grab on to”
I wish them well. Even tho they have cursed me.September 19, 2021 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #2009068
Just playing an uncomfortable game of hardball to see if the point sinks in.September 20, 2021 1:07 am at 1:07 am #2009094
@torahvaluesoverparty No no no, you can’t change your words now. Your point was that vaccines only protect ich and not du so you people shouldn’t be forced to get them. That is patently false, vaccines absolutely protect others. In my opinion, the only places where masks should be big is in places with low vaccination rates. I think the government is pushing masking up again because they see that people aren’t taking their safe, preventative medicine, like they should.
@always_ask_questions There’s a lot of cognitive dissonance around Trump. Liberals are quick to blame him for the whole pandemic, but congratulate Biden on the vaccines. Trump supporters who are pro-COVID for some reason, use Fauci as the whipping boy and ignore the fact that it was Trump who helped develop the vaccines and continues to promote it.
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