June 17, 2021 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #1984168
Does anyone realize that 99% survival rate is actually super scary for a virus as infectious as COVID? There are communities where literally everyone got COVID and yes, they had a 99% survival rate. Which means that every few classes in Yeshiva had a kid sitting shiva, every shul lost one or two members, and every neighborhood had aveilim. Is that supposed to be reassuring?
I don’t know if giving the vaccine to children is the right thing to do, but I do know that I have far more trust in my Rabbonim and doctors to tell me what is. And I resent the implication you are stating that my doctors and Rabbonim are so gullible they can be tricked into supporting something dangerous.June 17, 2021 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1984191
ubiquitin, “where is the source and where is the proof that 96% percent of doctors took the test? ”
It was an AMA survey
“From CNN or the NYT perhaps?”
I’m sure they reported on it.
“DNA 100% produces RNA.”
So not quite. DNA is used as a template for RNA, the DNA doesnt really produce the RNA, but as mentioned the difference here MAY be semantics (if the rest of your comments made sense). ITs kind of like saying a Tikkun produces a sefer Torah. Not really, the Sofer copies the Tikkun when he produces a Torah.
” The shot 100% modifies the RNA response.”
So not at all. RNA response to what? The shot provides mRNA that humans otherwise wouldnt have . IT doesnt modify any response to anything
“Absolutely no one disputes this”
I havent even heard anyone make your claim befrore (modifies RNA repsonse) I’m not sure I know what you mean, and pretty sure you dont know either.
” (unless one has no knowledge of how the shot works) ”
Forget how the shot works, you comments betray a lack of a highschool understanding of Biochemistry. I’m happy to explain if you are interested.
” It’s on many of covid-19 shots manufacturers websites. ”
“The only point of contention is if the DNA response itself gets modified”
This isnt a point of contention at all. there is no human mechanism for RNA to affect DNA.
” or only the RNAs response is modified….but nobody disputes that this shot modifies the RNAs response, that is how the shot works.”
No it isn’t . Like not even a little bit.
Oppose the vaccine all you want.
Just Dont make stuff up pleaseJune 18, 2021 9:23 am at 9:23 am #1984269
ubiquitin, one AMA survey is not something that is automatically a given fact.
Here’s an excerpt from the book, “From DNA to RNA-Molecular Biology of the Cell”; “DNA transcription produces a single-stranded RNA molecule that is complementary to one strand of DNA. … Thus, the RNA molecules produced by transcription are released from the DNA template as single strands.” RNA MOLECULES PRODUCED BY TRANSCRIPTION ARE RELEASED FROM THE DNA TEMPLATE. You can look at it from many angles, but the bottom line is that DNA gives birth to the process of producing RNA. You could also say that RNA is transcribed from a DNA copy, but that is indeed semantics and at the end of the day both ways of looking at it are correct. This is the chicken and the egg causality dilemma of which came first, the chicken or the egg. In any case, regardless, it is not the DNA that actually makes RNA or as you look at it as the transcription process not beginning with the DNA, but in reality no cell actually makes anything on its own, Hashem makes everything work in beautiful sequence and what comes first or second is irrelevant. However again, whichever way you look at it, it is correct to say that DNA produces RNA (through the transcription process).
Regarding the body’s natural RNAs response not being modified by the covid-19 shot, you may indeed be right, or not…it is too early to tell just as we can’t tell if the shot affects the DNA and RNA or not. The fact is that the covid-19 shots mRNAs are affecting a response from every single cell in the body (unlike regular vaccinations where small doses of the injected virus just affects the immune system, in this case, it is each individual cell in the the body being affected). So magically the shots’ mRNAs are supposedly not designed to enter the cells’ nuclei. However the body’s natural RNA can only work together with DNA and now all of a sudden these mRNA can affect the cell’s response without the DNA or nucleus being involved at all when the nucleus actually controls the cell! That is magic! How can messenger RNAs affect a cell without help from the nucleus which controls ALL functions of the cell? This is highly improbable to me. Now for most people the covid-19 shots are not fatal nor cause severe medical issues, however the vaccine lasts between 6 months to a year and I cannot believe that repeatedly taking the shot will not have severe repercussions. This is playing with fire for a virus that has a 99% recovery rate.It is simply unbelievable.June 18, 2021 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #1984352
yubiquitin, you are correct that the covid-19 shot affecting the cells’ RNA is not undisputed, I shouldn’t have written that. In fact, it is more plausible that the DNA’s, not the RNA’s, reaction is modified by the shot. But again, that also is not something most people agree with at this point. The truth remains to be seen. Also I said the shot affects all the body’s cells, but I shouldn’t have written that as well as for now it is not a certainty with a study showing that the spike proteins remain stuck to the cell surface around the injection site (which I find hard to believe, I think that study is tainted) and another study finding the protein spike in the shot in the bloodstream of shot recipients.
But in any case, the bottom line remains that while the covid-19 vaccine may not enter the nucleus of a cell, which is what the proponents of this vaccine are using to prove that it doesn’t affect the cell’s DNA, the shot actually forces the cell to produce the spike protein and since the cell’s functions are controlled by the nucleus it is simply impossible that it doesn’t affect at least the response of the nucleus of the cell. The MSM, CDC, Google, etc. are only putting forth info that the mRNA “forces” the “cell” to produce spike proteins and they remain mum on how that process actually works within the cell. And since we all know that RNA can only produce proteins through the DNA’s transmission process, we can reasonably assume that the mRNA needs the DNA as well to produce the spike protein. We know for sure that the mRNA cannot not produce the spike protein on it’s own, there is a process within the cell that that causes the mRNA to trigger the cell to produce the protein and since, again, every cell is controlled by the nucleus, the process of the mRNA forcing the cell to produce the proteins MSUT involve the nucleus despite the fact (?… according to official channels) that it doesn’t enter it. That the vaccine not affecting the DNA is utter non-sense as the cell’s function is controlled by the nucleus and the RNAs and proteins in cells work are a result of the DNA’s process of transmission so one must be missing some grey cells to think the mRNAs can simply force the cell to produce spike proteins without the involvement of the DNA and nucleus. The mainstream explanation of how the shot works is that it supposed to “teach” your “cell” how to see the virus and it makes the cell produce spike proteins. But again, notice there is no mention of exactly HOW this process happens. While the mRNA won’t change the makeup up the DNA, it certainly affects its response to it, and the long term implications are not known yet, although in the short term we have seen many healthy individuals death after getting the covid-19 shot as well as people developing myocarditis and pericarditis.
So people are saying that 99% of indiviuals not recovering from covid-19 is a large number but what about the fatalities of people taking this shot? I doubt the data will ever honestly be known because while covid-19 was hyped by every person who died being tested for the virus and very often their death being registered and counted as a result of the virus while in reality it may have been different conditions resulting in the death, in the case of people dying after taking the shot, a plethora of reasons why the person died will explain the death and it is not counted as the official cause of death. So the actual numbers of the death and also other serious illnesses from the shot will not be known as there are no controlled studies as is the case with all other medication and vaccines years before hitting the market. The fatalities and long term complications from the shot may never be truly known so we cannot say that the deaths by this shot are less than from those who get infected by covid-19.June 18, 2021 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #1984350
“one AMA survey is not something that is automatically a given fact.”
Certainly not. Especially when it doesn’t fit your preconceived notions.
Same way you make a bunch of guesses as to how DNA translation occurs and then decide “This is highly improbable to me” Your opinions do not seem to be data/fact driven
Which again, I’m not judging. I get the fear, I really do.
Just don’t spread misinformation.
Your quote from the book is completely accurate.
Though as I said the DNA does not produce RNA, DNA is used as a template for RNA production. This is what I said (see the Sofer analogy) , and what your quote says.
Again, if this was your only mistake, I would have let it go. I only mentioned it because EVERY part of your statement “DNA produces RNA so the vaccine is affecting and modifying the DNA’s natural response.” was incorrect, and betrays a complete lack of understanding of how the vaccine works specifically and biochemistry in general.
The rest of your first paragraph is complete nonsense (at least I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I am having trouble understanding your second paragraph as well. “So magically the shots’ mRNAs are supposedly not designed to enter the cells’ nuclei.”
no not “magically” mRNA doesnt enter a cell nucleus that isnt something that happens. There is no reason to think that THIS mRNa is special
“However the body’s natural RNA can only work together with DNA ”
No this is not quite right. Once RNA is produced it no longer “needs” DNA at all.
“How can messenger RNAs affect a cell without help from the nucleus which controls ALL”
The mRNA is produced in the nucleus then exits, it doesn’t go back in.
Here is a quick crash course. let me know where I lose you
1) Every human cell (ok almost), has DNA these are essentially instructions for all the body’s functions, production of proteins etc.
2) the first step in decoding these instructions is DNA transcription. During this process a bunch of enzymes open up the double stranded DNA and “transcribe” the DNA code into a slightly different RNA code. The product of this process is mRNA. This process occurs in the nucleus.
3) outside the nucleus, in the ribosome, this mRNA is used as instructions to build a protein, This process is known as transcription .
4) mRNA is then broken down, it does not reenter the nucleus. there would be no reason for it too, as far as I know humans don’t even have a mechanism to get it back in.
With me so far? That is how proteins are produced in a nutshell ( I simplified it a bit and skipped a few steps such as mRNA processing that often occurs in nucleus, but that is the gist.)
Let me know if nay of the above is unclear.
So what does the mRNA vaccine do?
Essentially it skips DNA translation. Instead of mRNA being there as a result of DNA translation, the mRNA is directly injected. In the cytoplasm (not nucleus) the mRNA is transcribed as it normally is in step 3. the body then produces the “spike protein” a protein which does not exist in our genetic code (DNA). The body recognizes these spike proteins as foreign and produces antibodies against them
Again remember just like in step 3-4 above mRNA does not then enter the nucleus. There likely isnt even a (human) mechanism by which it couldJune 18, 2021 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1984355
Yeserbius123, I never said, or even implied, that Rabbis and doctors being so gullible that they can be tricked into something so dangerous, that is what you yourself decided. I said that to believe in what Rabbis and doctors say (regarding health and medical issues) without independent thinking is also independent thinking by individuals who choose to unwaveringly believe in whatever Rabbis and doctors say is the right thing to do. In other words, it is an individual’s choice whom and what they want to believe in.
As for 99% dying of the virus, after the initial pandemic which caused so many people to die because we were never exposed before to this particular virus, the death rate now is similar to the flu. The exact number of covid-19 fatality rates is inflated and the fatality rate and the rate of serious medical conditions resulting from the covid shot will never be known. Read the last paragraph of my previous post as to why that is the case.June 18, 2021 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #1984375
Your second post to me went up the same time as my post.
Many of your mistakes are explained in my last post (which you hadn’t seen yet when your wrote this)
a few quick points
“… it is simply impossible that it doesn’t affect at least the response of the nucleus of the cell…”
I have no idea why you think it would affect it , let alone why it would be “impossible” otherwise. You dont provide a mechanism as to how. Just the statement that it must.
” The MSM, CDC, Google, etc. are only putting forth info that the mRNA “forces” the “cell” to produce spike proteins and they remain mum on how that process actually works within the cell”.
I explain it a bit more detailed, of course you can get even more detailed if you like. I’m not sure why you are acting like this information is unavailable. there are some nice videos wit hgreat graphics on Youtube from Harvard and other reputable groups
” And since we all know that RNA can only produce proteins through the DNA’s transmission process,”
We don’t all know that because it is absolutely not true. mRNA is well studied. In fact everytime you are infected w/ an RNA virus (Covid 19 being one) mRNA enters your cells. Does getting Covid 19 alter your DNA? why would the mRNA from vaccine be different?
” Some viruses use mRNA to replicate we can reasonably assume that the mRNA needs the DNA as well to produce the spike protein.”
The first half of your statement is true and undermines the second.
” We know for sure that the mRNA cannot not produce the spike protein on it’s own”
True in the same way that DNA cannot and does not produce RNA. DNA is a template for enzymes to produce RNA(translation). RNA is the template for Protein production (transcription).
“, there is a process within the cell that that causes the mRNA to trigger the cell to produce the protein ”
“and since, again, every cell is controlled by the nucleus, the process of the mRNA forcing the cell to produce the proteins MSUT involve the nucleus ”
Certainly not. mRNA is produced in the nucleus. Once you have the mRNA (whether it got there by viral infection or vaccination) there is no need for the nucleus nor its contents.
” despite the fact (?… according to official channels) that it doesn’t enter it.”
If it doesnt enter, how does it change it?
” That the vaccine not affecting the DNA is utter non-sense as the cell’s function is controlled by the nucleus”
This is something they teach in elementary school, it isnt completely true, in high school you learn about organelles and their own functions that don’t need a nucleus to instruct them.
” and the RNAs and proteins in cells work are a result of the DNA’s process of transmission”
I’m not familiar with “the process of transmission”
” so one must be missing some grey cells to think the mRNAs can simply force the cell to produce spike proteins without the involvement of the DNA and nucleus.”
So does getting infected by an mRNA virus , which of course also forces cells to produce spike proteins. Alter DNA?
” The mainstream explanation of how the shot works is that it supposed to “teach” your “cell” how to see the virus and it makes the cell produce spike proteins.”
” But again, notice there is no mention of exactly HOW this process happens.”
again depedns where you look.
” While the mRNA won’t change the makeup up the DNA”
“, it certainly affects its response to it”
Waaay to many “it”s in this sentence what affects whats response to what? ,June 18, 2021 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1984420
philosopher, I don’t think I ever quoted Fauci. You need to widen your education beyond what facebook recommends you. go check out scientific papers and preprints. Some are freely available, others require subscription. go to a local library or university if you want to read more. If you find some difficult to process, post it here and we can all analyze together.
btw, if you have concerns about mRNA vaccines, there are lots of others available already. J&J is available everywhere now, it is a more traditional technology, previously tested. You can also try Sinovac or Sputnik, those are even more classical, and probably well tested on prisoners and soldiers.June 18, 2021 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1984436
@philosopher Saying “don’t take doctors and Rabbis at their word, do your own research” strongly implies that doctors were gulled into believing something not true and they didn’t do the research. I resent that implication.
You said over and over again “99% survival rate” (and only about a 90% rate of people without serious health concerns). So is it or is it not? Because your last post seemed to imply a much greater survival rate. Also, your logic of “never exposed to this virus” requires mass exposure to the virus which means one out of every 100 people literally dying. Which, and I shouldn’t have to say this, is horrific. Right now the only reason it’s about as deadly as the flu is because so many people are already vaccinated. Remember, the viral spread went in waves. Every few months over 2020 there would be a two week or so period where the papers would be swamped with shiva announcements.June 20, 2021 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #1984789
ubiquitin, I’m not interested in going back and forth with you skewing my words. This is my last response even if you will twist whatever I say.
Now I see that you are familiar with the subject but you don’t have the last word in this field. The fact is that there is a debate in the scientific world what comes first in this cycle of DNA splitting and RNA production and it is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that DNA makes RNA. In fact, THE CENTRAL DOGMA OF MOLECULAR BIOLOGY STATES THAT DNA MAKES RNA, AND RNA MAKES PROTEIN. You are oversimplifying the process but I’m not going to argue further to try to prove my point regarding this topic. Whoever wants can do research on this topic, it is certainly not a topic I am interested in arguaing back about as such an argument would go on practically forever.
You are totally wrong about natural mRNAs not entering the nucleus (I’m not talking here about the covid-19 shot mRNA’s). (You really should familiarize yourself more before stating things as a fact particularly if you are going to argue about it in such a serious manner.) Transcription of genes and the processing of various RNAs occurs in the nucleus, whereas translation of proteins exclusively takes place on the ribosomes in the cytoplasm. Due to this physical separation, messenger RNAs (mRNAs) must be EXPORTED to the cytoplasm where they direct protein synthesis, whereas proteins participate in the nuclear activities are imported into the nucleus. In addition, SOME TYPES OF RNAs REENTER to the nucleus after being exported to the cytoplasm… So yes, I’m ALLOWED to be a skeptical whether this synthetic drug will not enter into the nucleus.
And now to the last point I want to make; every aspect of the cell is controlled by the nucleus, that is a fact regardless if if you skirt around or ignore the issue. I never said that the covid-19 shot can modify the nucleus or DNA, (maybe it could, maybe it can’t, it is too early to tell). I said that it MODIFIES the natural RESPONSE of the nucleus and maybe the DNA ( that also still remains to be seen). Now the official line is that the shot modifies the reaction of the cell causing it to prodcuce certain proteins, however the brain of the cell is the nucleus, the mRNA simply cannot produce anything on it’s own so it surely does affect the nucleus.
I only skimmed through your post, I did not read every line and perhaps I missed something but I will not argue point by point, I’m just done with arguing about this subject. Now I may have made some grammatical mistakes or perhaps wrote a line in error as I often post from my phone and it’s hard to proofread before I press the submit button. But overall, I stand by what I say.
You really feel like peoples’ lives are your your hands by providing them with the “real info” so let me give you some advice that you should chill. Hashem is in control, again people’s lives are only in His control. Life is not in your hands regardless what you and I write on this thread.June 20, 2021 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #1984792
Yserbius123, I will not read through every one of my posts but I can 100% say that I did not write it the way you said I did. You are being completely dishonest. I would never tell anyone not to take their doctors or Rabbis at their word, I have said that everyone can choose what to do regarding their health, it is their CHOICE to follow what their doctors or Rabbis say regarding their health. I would never say people shouldn’t listen to their Rabbis or doctors.
I don’t know what you are talking about 90% rate of people without serious health concern? What? I don’t know what you are trying to say here. Neither do I follow the rest of your logic.
Anyway, I’m done arguing here. I will not respond anymore even if you skew my words and imply that I wrote things that I never did.June 20, 2021 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #1984797
@philosopher A fella posted this in response to me saying that we have to listen to Rabbonim, askonim, doctors, and other experts instead of drawing our own conclusions:
Rabbonim, Askonim and many others have been acting out of actual panic and without proper evaluation of the situation required of a Beis Din.
To which you responded “you are 100% correct”.
So please stop gaslighting me and pretending I didn’t read what you absolutely 100% did say.June 21, 2021 12:53 am at 12:53 am #1984805
And let’s not make it seem that ALL Rabbis and doctors are supporting getting the shot. I personally have never heard any Rabbi coming out in support of this shot. The Rabbis I know are not saying to take it or not to, they are neutral on the subject. I have also heard Rabbis coming out sharply against taking the vaccine. I am sure there are Rabbis who support the taking of the vaccine; I personally only read here on TYW about one Rabbi saying the vaccine should be taken.
And there are doctors and virologists supporting the vaccine as well as those who are against it. I have heard speaches by doctors and virologists coming out against it. MSM and social media always try to silence the dissident voices of those not toeing the official line, however these doctors are out there.June 21, 2021 12:54 am at 12:54 am #1984804
Yesiurbus, I said I won’t respond anymore but I can’t resist. I am allowed to agree with someone regarding what they said on a different aspect of this topic. That still doesn’t mean I said that people shouldn’t listen to their doctors or Rabbis! I said it’s the an individual’s choice either way, whether they listen or not! I never, ever told, advised, or wrote that people should not to listen to their doctors or Rabbis. YOU are conflating two seperate things into one and saying an outright lie (and other lies) about me.June 21, 2021 1:58 am at 1:58 am #1984813
Yeserbius, And even what I agreed with 100% was written within a larger context regarding support of the vaccine. You chose to take that one sentence and highlight it as if that was the only thing written in his/her long post which was not the case.June 21, 2021 1:59 am at 1:59 am #1984814
There are different Covid-19 vaccines, not all of them contain mRNA. The J&J covid-19 shot contain actual human DNA that is transcribed into mRNA…There’s also the vector vaccine and the protein subunit vaccine that already contain the S protein.June 21, 2021 1:59 am at 1:59 am #1984815
In case someone will pounce on my previous post and point out that J&J/Janssen does not use actual aborted fetal cells only lab created ones called replication-defective DNA, I want to point out that I that already and I know it according to the company the vaccine “cannot” replicate or become part of a person’s body…June 21, 2021 8:34 am at 8:34 am #1984912
“I’m not interested in going back and forth with you skewing my words.”
I’m not skewing anything . You simply do not know what you are talking about.
“Now I see that you are familiar with the subject but you don’t have the last word in this field”
both statments absolutly true.
“. The fact is that there is a debate in the scientific world what comes first in this cycle of DNA splitting and RNA production”
Thee is no such debate.
” and it is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that DNA makes RNA”
It depends what you mean, its like saying a Tikkun makes a sefer Torah, as mentioned.
“. In fact, THE CENTRAL DOGMA OF MOLECULAR BIOLOGY STATES THAT DNA MAKES RNA, AND RNA MAKES PROTEIN.”
I have never heard it posed that way. Though again, if that was your only mistake I would have let it go. While imprecise, and not technicly correct, it is fair to say it that way (as mentioned)
” You are oversimplifying the process”
the exact opposite saying “DNA makes RNA” oversimplifies the process, in fact a bunch of enzymes use DNA as a template to make RNA, this is till an oversimplification but more accurate than “DNA makes RNA”
” but I’m not going to argue further to try to prove my point regarding this topic. ”
Good, becasue it is a side point to the vaccine issue.
“Whoever wants can do research on this topic, it is certainly not a topic I am interested in arguaing back about as such an argument would go on practically forever.”
“You are totally wrong about natural mRNAs not entering the nucleus”
citation please. ( to be clear, we are talking once they exit)
” (You really should familiarize yourself more before stating things as a fact particularly if you are going to argue about it in such a serious manner.)”
Always! I love familiarizing myself with things. Do you have a source please?
” Transcription of genes and the processing of various RNAs occurs in the nucleus,”
correct. As I said.
” whereas translation of proteins exclusively takes place on the ribosomes in the cytoplasm. Due to this physical separation, messenger RNAs (mRNAs) must be EXPORTED to the cytoplasm where they direct protein synthesis, whereas proteins participate in the nuclear activities are imported into the nucleus.”
YES! nailed it! EXACTLY as I explained.
“In addition, SOME TYPES OF RNAs REENTER to the nucleus after being exported to the cytoplasm… ”
“And now to the last point I want to make; every aspect of the cell is controlled by the nucleus, that is a fact regardless if if you skirt around or ignore the issue.”
It isnt a fact. It is an oversimplification The nucleus controls gene expression. Once a gene is expressed the resulting actions are no longer controlled by the nucleus.
” I said that it MODIFIES the natural RESPONSE of the nucleus and maybe the DNA ”
Yes I know you said that. I dont know what that measn.
” the mRNA simply cannot produce anything on it’s own so it surely does affect the nucleus”
it absolutly can and does.
I asked you earlier. Does Covid 19 (The virus) affect DNA?
“I only skimmed through your post, I did not read every line and perhaps I missed something ”
yes that is clear. You are repeating the things I told you as if they are your chidushim.
“but I will not argue point by point,”
” Now I may have made some grammatical mistakes or perhaps wrote a line in error as I often post from my phone and it’s hard to proofread before I press the submit button. ”
“But overall, I stand by what I say.”
I know although it isnt fact based, that is all I’m pointing out. I don’t think I will convince you .
question (posed before, perhaps you missed it, since you only skimmed):
Does being infected w/ Covid 19 alter DNA?
“You really feel like peoples’ lives are your your hands by providing them with the “real info” ”
I dont get the connection.
“so let me give you some advice that you should chill. ”
Why do you think I’m not chilled
“Hashem is in control, ”
His seal is emes.
Please don’t make stuff upJune 21, 2021 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1984931
Ubiquitin, ok here I go again after I said that I won’t bother answering again…
Excuse me, did I ask you to bring citations on whatever you wrote? No, I did not and I am not going to do so for you. Look up the info yourself, it’s easy today, it’s all online.
There is absolutely an ongoing debate in science which came first DNA or RNA. If you are just not familiar with that that doesn’t mean I’m making things up. And search for the Central Dogma of Molecular Biology yourself and don’t lie about me making things up about DNA making RNA. It is you trying to wiggle out of what you said by asking me to bring citations. And you absolutely said said that after mRNA is produced it does not enter the nucleus and that is false because many types of mRNA sure do reenter the nucleus. And I’m not going to go through everything again but please stop being hypocritical for telling me not to make things up when it is you who are doing so.June 21, 2021 11:50 am at 11:50 am #1984972
ubiqutin, I can’t not defend myself although I said I won’t do it anymore. I don’t know why it bothers me that you are saying that I am making things up. Just because you are not familiar with many aspects of molecular biology does not mean I am making things up. I will not bother providing citiation; this is the 21st century and you can look things up easily.
It is not clear to scientists what came first and they are continously debating whether it was DNA, RNA, proteins, or other molecules. This is a study called abiogenesis which we don’t believe in because we know Adam Harishon was created whole so everything was created at the same time. However I bought it up the so that you understand there there is nothing definite in where the process first starts so scientifically there is absolutely no issue with saying DNA makes RNA because it all depends how you look at the process.
Look up the Central Dogma of Molecular Biology
If Covid-19 affects or doesn’t affect the DNA is totally irrelevent to if the shot affects the DNA or not. However the answer is that, no covid-19 dos not affect the DNA, it is just the opposite, DNA affects how the body reacts to covid-19. However, this has nothing to do with the shot. You cannot extrapolitate that if a cell’s DNA or RNA reacts in a certain way that synthetic medication given in a variety of forms that interact with cells to ellicit a certain molecular reaction also will react in he same way. This needs to be studied in conteolled studies as all medication is done for years before reaching consumers and it was not done with the release of the covid-19 shots.
You said that mRNAs do not return to the nucleus. That is compltely untrue. Many types of mRNA return to the nucleus as do proteins. I will not bring any citation, this info is readily available on the internet and easy to find.
Just because you are unfamiliar with every aspect of molecular biology does not give you the right to say I am making things up. Molecular biologists study this subject continously for years before knowing what is already known to us. So certainly you don’t know everything that is known about this subject so don’t jump to conclusions that just because you don’t know something someone else is making things up.June 21, 2021 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1985039
I am not an expert on biology, but I can use statistics – if there are at least 3 different technologies for vaccines 1) mRNA, 2) J&J, AZ 3) Sinovac, Sputnik – and someone finds different flaws in all of them, maybe there is no point in arguing each of the points separately, as there is obviously some other objection.June 21, 2021 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1985055
Excuse me, did I ask you to bring citations on whatever you wrote? ”
Please do. for any statement that you find surprising
“No, I did not and I am not going to do so for you. Look up the info yourself, it’s easy today, it’s all online.”
Lol, don’t you worry I didnt expect you to do so.
“There is absolutely an ongoing debate in science which came first DNA or RNA. “no there isnt. We are not discussing what came first in evolutionary theory. An attempt to now change the subject to that completely irrelevant one betrays either a complete lack of understanding of the discussion at hand (namely how the gene expresion and mRNA vaccine function) . OR a blatant dishonest attempt to obfuscate. I cant think of another connection that has to this topic.
“And search for the Central Dogma of Molecular Biology yourself”
found it! Its explained in detail in my post to you June 18, 2021 12:12 pm , and in most posts since. I know you only skim my posts. Don’t skim! read them. We can both learn new things
“and don’t lie about me making things up about DNA making RNA”
no it depends what you mean (as mentioned several times) .
“. It is you trying to wiggle out of what you said by asking me to bring citations. ”
no need. simple question: does a tikkun make a Torah?
“And you absolutely said said that after mRNA is produced it does not enter the nucleus and that is false because many types of mRNA sure do reenter the nucleus.”
Yes this is true I was wrong. while human mRNA does not enter the nucleus. Viral mRNA regularly does.
I will not bother providing citiation; this is the 21st century and you can look things up easily.”
Cracks me up again! (I skipped the next part since I replied above but this was too funny to ignore)
“If Covid-19 affects or doesn’t affect the DNA is totally irrelevent to if the shot affects the DNA or not. However the answer is that, no covid-19 dos not affect the DNA, ”
Lol! So how and why would mRNA from a vaccine be different?
“You said that mRNAs do not return to the nucleus. That is compltely untrue. Many types of mRNA return to the nucleus as do proteins.”
Yes this wasnt true . I meant in normal human metabolism, but I overgeneralized and I was wrong. Thank you for pointing that out.
” So certainly you don’t know everything that is known about this subject so don’t jump to conclusions that just because you don’t know something someone else is making things up.”
certainly not! thats why I ask for citations. sources I love learning new thingsJune 22, 2021 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1985256
@philosopher I think you need to read up what “100%” means. I have not heard any Rabbonim discussing giving it to children, but when it comes to adults taking the shot every Rav and doctor I heard who voiced an opinion encouraged people to get vaccinated. Multiple cities (not New York, Lakewood, and Monsey for some reason) had petchkvilim signed by virtually every shul and Yeshiva in town telling people to get vaccinated. So that’s who I’m listening to.June 22, 2021 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1985258
The line “affects your DNA” is incredibly misleading. It implies that it changed the genes of a person, like give them a different hair color or make them taller, kind of like what CRISPR does, which can then be passed on to their children. To backtrack and say this whole complex explanation isn’t really doing the argument any favors.June 24, 2021 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1986087
Yeserbius, my I never said that it definitely changes the DNA, I said it that it may affect the response of DNA and I said nothing to do with hair color or making them taller rather how it responds to sickness and infections.June 24, 2021 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1986096
So for all you people bashing me for talking against vthe covid-19 accinations, and for those who didn’t bash me but may be interested in hearing the real truth, listen to Tucker Carlson’s interview with Dr. Robert Malone, the INVENTOR of the mRNA vaccine who tried to speak the truth online but Google, the government of the internet communist regime, tried to silence him and YouTube took off the video that Dr. Malone, the inventor of the mRNA vaccine put up talking about the potential risks and the fact that there’s no data available to make an informed decision.
Basically Dr. Malone is saying in the interview with Tucker Carlson exactly what I keep on saying, that everyone has a right to decide for themselves whether they want to take the vaccine or not. He says that there’s no data right now for people to make a reasonably informed decision. He says that for teens and children 18 years and below, the risks of covid-19 does not justify giving these vaccines.
Dr. Malone said he is waiting from data from different countries including from Israel regarding effects on fertility but the latest study from Israel of the covid-19 vaccine regarding fertility involved already infertile couples and I doubt the study draws any conclusions for fertile women.June 24, 2021 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1986149
@philosopher You called it (or at least 100% agreed with someone who said) “modifies DNA”. That’s misleading, as it does not modify the actual strands of DNA nor a person’s genes.
Dr. Malone (whoever he is) is not being silenced. You said yourself he was on Tucker Carlson, one of the most watched talk shows on TV in the English speaking world. According to a few things from reliable sources I literally just Googled, Dr. Malone has a habit of using inflammatory, misleading, and wrong information, so I wouldn’t necessarily trust him over my own doctor.
I agree that waiting until people are 18 makes sense, but 99% of people simply cannot make an informed decision on vaccinating themselves. That’s what caused the measles outbreak in Monsey two years ago which could have Chas V’Shalom been much worse than it was.June 24, 2021 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1986172
Yesiurbus, I have said I am apologizing for grammatical mistakes and now I am mentioning mistypes as well. I wrote NUMEROUS that ithe vaccines modifies the cell’s response that nobody challenges, and that is what I meant to say. I also wrote NUMEROUS times that I BELIEVE that these vaccines can modify DNA and RNA. So I made a mistake in what I wrote originally and you keep on harping on it when YOU MADE quite a few FACTUAL mistakes yourself but I don’t go around repeating it with every new comment I make, I only repeat in my responses to your continuous rounds of attacks on me.
Your posts are quite infantile by constantly repeating the same things over and over again that which I already repeatedly answered to.June 24, 2021 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1986180
“So for all you people bashing me for talking against vthe covid-19 accinations, ”
Most of your discussion here was with me. At no point did I bash you for talking against the vaccine.
I bashed you for making stuff up. Namely that “DNA produces RNA so the vaccine is affecting and modifying the DNA’s natural response.”
To tell you the truth the bashing didn’t even start there its ok to make a mistake, to misspeak. The bashing only started when your response to the multiple errors you made in that one sentence being pointed out, was to double down on your misinformed opinion.June 24, 2021 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1986184
When YouTube and other social media, Google and most MSM outlets are censoring many doctors and scientists if they don’t toe the official line. That is a fact. Many YouTube videos put up by prominent doctors and scientists were taken down, many social media sites had posts were taken down and Google buries information critical regarding covid-19 regulations and vaccines filtering critical information.
Basically what you are saying is that since you are pro vaccination anyone not toeing that line does not know how to make their own decisions and should not do so. In other words, you support the liberal communism take-over of the USA that is currently ongoing to stifle American’s freedoms.June 24, 2021 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1986187
again, you don’t like mRNA, you can take J&J, AZ, Sinopharm, Sputnik, wear full N-95, or just stay home. If none of these choices are good for you, then this is not a rational, but a religious position. You are simply refusing to accept reality that Hashem put you in.
This reminds me of a discussion I had with a friend some time ago who brought up multiple reasons for not eating kosher meat. Most of them did not stand scrutiny, but he settled that it will cost him too much. I then offered to pay for his family’s meat. Everyone got interested in this insult – I was a grad student and he had a very high-paying job. He then switched saying that it takes too much time to go get it. I am embarrassed to say that I was not tzaddik enough to offer deliveries, looking back at that, I probably should have. (that was before Amazon and UberEats)June 24, 2021 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1986197
Ubiquitin, I can bring up many mistakes you made regarding the DNA and RNA process but I’m simply not interested in repeating myself so many times over and over again. I don’t know how you and another poster keep at it going over the same tiresome repetition just because I don’t agree with you.June 24, 2021 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1986193
Ubiquitin, here we go again. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying DNA produces RNA. That terminology is used many times in the field of science. Because the process is very complicated you can describe it from many angles and that is the way I chose to say it.
The vaccine IS AFFECTING and MODIFYING the cell’s response and perhap’s the DNA’s as well. Sorry for not saying it so clearly the first time around, I have corrected myself numerous times and AM STILL being bashed
I am doubling down about what I wrote in this post which I said many times and you still keep on bringing up the same things again and again.June 24, 2021 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1986209
Yesiurbus, I love how you say the INVENTOR of the mRNA vaccine is using “inflammatory language” about his own invention! Lol! He’s just being honest like a scientist should be and wants the vaccination to go through relevent trials as every medication and vaccine does for many years prior to its release.. He’s also being honest about the known side effects and says since covid-19 barely affects children under 18 the side affects of this vaccine can be potentially worse than the virus.
And that is considered inflammatory language…June 24, 2021 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1986221
” I can bring up many mistakes you made regarding the DNA and RNA process”
Would appreciate that if you have a moment. I don’t like making mistakes. And I always like learning new things. If I got something wrong. PLEASE point it out.
“There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying DNA produces RNA.”
I replied to this no fewer than 7 times already.
“The vaccine IS AFFECTING and MODIFYING the cell’s response and perhap’s the DNA’s as well”
No it isnt. The DNA’s response to what ?
“and you still keep on bringing up the same things again and again.”
right becasue you are repeating the same nonsense again and again.June 24, 2021 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1986236
ubiquitin, whatever. I already wrote where you were wrong more than once and you ignored it. I’m not going to repeat the entire parshah again 50 times like you enjoy chewing over my words over and over and over again.
I suggest for all who are “immensely interested” in who was right here to research the topic yourself.
Anyway, in other news, the inventor of the RNA vaccine, Dr. Robert Malone is saying there is no data for people to make informed decisions regarding the covid-19 vaccine and he thinks that those in the age category of 18 years and younger should not take the vaccines as the risks from getting the shot are greater than from covid-19.June 24, 2021 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #1986244
“I already wrote where you were wrong more than once and you ignored it. ”
This is not factual.. I patiently explained why you in fact were incorrect.
“I’m not going to repeat the entire parshah again 50 times like you enjoy chewing over my words over and over and over again.”
Good. Please don’t. As you correctly note I have already chewed and digested your posts (the exact opposite of “ignored”)
I suggest for all who are “immensely interested” in who was right here to research the topic yourself.
I have, you can as well bit stick to factual sources
Anyway, in other news,…”
That is other news. Unrelated to our discussion.June 28, 2021 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1986878
again, anyone who is suspicious of mRNA technologies – did you try J&J, sputnik or sinopharm?July 6, 2021 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1989038
This conversation tells me that quite a few here have already made up their mind to take the vaccine. If not, why are the details being discussed like they matter. If a brain surgery is necessary, do you question every step the surgeon takes? The issue here is that nobody is being held accountable for anything COVID-19 related, yet here the ones giving consent are possibly paying the price. The concern here is that the children are also your responsibility and there seems to be some sort of uncertainty. The question is, do you really believe children are in danger? There seems to be a lot of uncertainty where there also seems to be a lot of certainty.
Personally, I see things differently. Medicine is a practice. It’s not perfect. Most doctors nowadays, will tell you not to smoke while they do, will tell you to exercise while they don’t. Good truthful doctors are few and far between. Every medication has it’s pros and cons. If I can manage to live well without a medication, why make my body work harder for no reason? Just because some power hungry oppressive laws are put in place, doesn’t mean I won’t choose to live as best as I can with the circumstances available. I’m anti flu vaccines, so I’m clearly anti the COVID vaccine. Most are not anti the flu vaccine, so most will likely take the COVID vaccine. So now comes the question those who plan to vaccinate their children have. Which vaccine is the best option, hence the conversation at hand. We can agree to disagree.July 6, 2021 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1989076
IYK, the question about children depends on the risk. If the kids are constantly exposed, then you are choosing a chance between the exposure to a wild, or created by an enemy, virus v. vaccine that was created and tested to be good. Of course, test for antibodies first, maybe the kid had it. Some recommend one shot in such cases. Choice is less clear for kids that are not exposed.July 7, 2021 1:10 am at 1:10 am #1989079
There were people who stayed home, had zero outside contact, sanitized everything, yet still died from corona. Fact is, everyone has been exposed to corona whether they have antibodies or not. There were people living in the same home as others who had corona, yet bloodwork showed no antibodies, they were totally unaffected. Children were the least affected, animals outside even less affected. Are we going to vaccinate all the animals on the planet? Animals were even more exposed to corona than humans were, yet the animals weren’t dropping dead from corona like us humans. As far as the vaccine goes, it’s not a tetanus shot, there’s no guarantee it’ll be 100% effective to secure the health of the one receiving it. Just like the flu shot, it’s a temporary hold off at best, that comes with side effects. At worst, it causes the very thing you tried to prevent by taking it. We still don’t know the effects 10 years after taking the shot, whichever one is taken. Why do people want to be guinea pigs for no reason? If you were supposed to die, Hashem has so many other ways it could happen. Did anyone else notice how as soon as people began taking the vaccines riots broke out all over the world? To think these injections don’t have negative effects is ludicrous.July 7, 2021 1:10 am at 1:10 am #1989080Avi KParticipant
If it lowers the spread of COVID it is a good idea unless a child has some specific known issue. Everything in life carries some risk. Google”Halachic Aspects of Vaccination” by Rabbi Dr. Edward Reichman, M.D.July 7, 2021 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1989081
I found an interesting correlation: there were a few countries with 0 reports of corona. All those countries, in the UN vote against moving the US embassy to Jerusalem, did not denounce the move that led to more peace in the Middle East. Just an interesting observation.July 7, 2021 9:28 am at 9:28 am #1989158emes nisht shekerParticipant
As usual people who misrepresent the truth in favor of their own agendas spend way too much time posting nonsense.
1. Dr. Malone did not invent the mRNA Vaccine. He may have been involved 30 or 40 years ago with some early research into mRNA and posited it could be made into a vaccine, but he did not solve the key steps necessary to make it into a vaccine. This is simply factual information that is undisputed. That his wife says he invented the vaccine does not make it true.
2. I saw some earlier comments you made about abiogenesis and DNA coming from RNA. Regardless of religious philosophy about evolution, if we assume this is true, so what? Are you suggesting a process that took place under a very unique set of circumstances over whatever number of years now determines how the body works? Do fish get out of the water in your world on a regular basis and start walking? Do Apes start talking? You are literally drawing connections and spreading FUD based on the most obtuse points.
3. As to concern about an mRNA vaccine… Does not COVID inject mRNA into the body and similarly affect every cell that is responsive to that mRNA? While there should be concerns and checks to validate the safety of these vaccines, logically the vaccine here cannot be worse than getting COVID. It actually should be better because rather than a virus spreading through the body, you just have some mRNA that quickly falls apart and become ineffective. If you concern is about some odd contention about mRNA modifying DNA, well would seem that you have the same concern to a larger extent with COVID.
4. I am frankly astounded how quick you and others are to discard the opinions of the people who are actually experts in this field and instead you go seek out the few doctors who speak against this. As to Rabbonim saying not to vaccinate, seems whomever would say that is going against normative Halacha as has been expressed by numerous Rabbonim in the past. Perhaps it is a lack of Yeras Shmayim and perhaps apirkorsus on the part of those saying not to vaccinate. It is actually kind of interesting that people who never would stray one iota from a psak of R’ Elyashiv or R’ Kanievesky suddenly are so cavalier when it comes to this vaccine. Where is the Yeras Shmayim? Beyond this, the Motzei Shem Ra on the numerous Doctors, including many Jewish ones, that you are committing when you say they can’t be trusted might be hard for you to answer one day.
5. For those who heard stories or this or that, understand that you have to be very careful how and where you get info from. Stories where people have negative experiences after the vaccine get all the attention and you don’t see the info in context. This is why you need to do proper studies so you can understand the data. Also, an individual experience with a specific medical thing or other where your doctor got it wrong, is far away from a vaccine with numerous doctors and researchers studying it and vouching for its safety. Even your Messiah, Donald Trump, said take the vaccine. I wonder which is it. If he is great and he is saying take the vaccine then the vaccine cannot be so bad, because if it was bad, then Donald Trump by pushing the vaccine is a pretty evil guy (hey, he even claims responsibility for the vaccine… hmmm… who would have thought it was Trump trying to control you and not the Democrats or Big Pharma).
Frankly, doubt any of this will change anyone’s mind so probably a waste of time posting. I am sure Philosopher and some others will have a bunch of nonsensical points to respond with. Not really interested in the debate though, so apologize in advance if I don’t respond. Probably will not look at this thread again as it is simply embarrassing the nonsense being spouted here.July 7, 2021 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1989329HealthParticipant
Ubiq -“I already wrote where you were wrong more than once and you ignored it. ”
“This is not factual.. I patiently explained why you in fact were incorrect.”
This I agree with!
The problem is – that many Yeshivos have stopped Secular Studies in H.S.
So where do these Frum guys get their info from?
Either Websites or YNN.
Websites can be True or False.
YNN stands for Yenta News Network!July 7, 2021 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #19893362scentsParticipant
My mind is made up. Don’t confuse me with the facts.
HI!! Thanks for dropping in!July 8, 2021 12:25 am at 12:25 am #1989478
IYK> there were .. there were
Could I suggest taking a college-level statistics class before writing about individual cases, and even those seem to exist just in your head.
Emes, there is a simple answer to those who worry about mRNA – they can take JNJ.
> Even your Messiah, Donald Trump, said take the vaccine.
Not sure what this dig is about given how much effort Trump and his team expended to get us these vaccines. Pure non-Jewish lack of gratitude. A better question is that Biden was elected in a big part on his persona of his experience and plans to lead government actually vaccinating people, and so far he is failing behind most developed countries: US had a 2-month headstart and now most European countries caught up with US and continue at a 3x rate than US.July 8, 2021 8:06 am at 8:06 am #1989537Avi KParticipant
Philosopher, the Pfizer vaccine produced amazing results in Israel. Did you read the halachic article I mentioned? As Rav Asher Weiss said, אין ספק מוציא מידי ודאי. If you read Hebrew you can also read להתחסן או לא להתחסן by Rav Dr. Avraham Steinberg, who is the foremost expert on medicine and halacha in Israel, if not in the world, on the Arutz 7 website. You can see some of his exemplary credentials at the end of the article.July 8, 2021 9:32 am at 9:32 am #19895862scentsParticipant
“HI!! Thanks for dropping in!”
And thanks for holding this place together for the past couple of months.July 8, 2021 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1989618emes nisht shekerParticipant
AAQ – Your criticism of my Trump dig is valid. I could not help it, given the pedestal so many in the Fum Velt put Donald Trump on (can’t tell you how many times I have heard people praise Trump as the best President America ever had). The fact is he was supportive and advocated that people take the vaccine, which I would think undermines the fear so many have that there is some secret agenda here that has an objective other than sincerely trying to help people.
I should have left out the messiah part. Added nothing to my point, which I think we are overall in agreement with.
As to Biden… well the US is nuts and too many people scared of vaccines on both the right and the left (The Washington Post had a few articles about how many black people are not getting the vaccine). The US is much more of a decentralized society/government than most of the world and it gets reflected in things that are left to personal choice. To force vaccines is often left up to individual States, not the Federal government, and given the crazy divides in this country, if Biden said do one thing there would be a bunch of governors that automatically would say otherwise. I generally refrain from blaming people for things they have little agency over.
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