July 8, 2021 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1989632Avi KParticipant
Biden certainly cannot issue this kind of executive order. It is also doubtful that a law passed by Congress would pass muster in view of United States v. Alfonso D. Lopez, Jr., 514 U.S. 549 (1995). However, they could possibly bar non-vaccinated people from interstate transport under the Commerce Clause, although there might be a Fourteenth Amendment question. As it stands now, states may fine people who refuse to be vaccinated (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)). Of course, that was a different time. Whether or not the Court would uphold it is a question.July 8, 2021 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1989862
emes, thanks for agreeing on Trump. I agree that structure of US society matters. US is good at the top percentiles – called when vaccine is required, or a Manhattan project, and maybe even at the median (strong, more educated middle class going back 100+ years, more than most Europeans), but less controlled at the lower percentiles (not just vaccines, but also violence, etc). Maybe analogous to Babylonian learning – best at top and worst at the bottom. Maybe for the same reason – European society develops from their old source, while American is built on independent search ….
But the “fault” of Biden is that he presented himself as capable of saving country from the chaos of Trump, but in reality he has no idea what to do. He tried federal vaccination sites that probably took energy away from hospitals and pharmacies, slowing down the initial process, now these are closing and Biden is proposing going with barbers in Black areas (I did not hear – is he proposing anything for white Republicans?). WSJ has an article interviewing such a barber, who was very impressed by a celebrity visit by … a husband of Biden’s VP .. mostly that he dared to get into the place where more people are killed than dying from COVID. Barber himself, though, was not vaccinated and still does not plan to, so I am not sure whether he will help convince others. I don’t know whether biden has other ideas beyond this barbarism. So, it was definitely a smart political strategy, but it is pure genivat daat and denied the country a chance to be led by some more capable people.July 8, 2021 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1989887emes nisht shekerParticipant
This stuff with Biden is tangential to the issue of children taking the vaccine. Don’t want to be involved in a whole political back and forth on this, so will leave it be. Regarding the vaccine, seems we can pretty much agree on that at least.July 12, 2021 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1990824
While everyone should discuss matters concerning health with the health care providers that they trust.
The concern when it comes to children and Covid is not just that children may be carriers, but also because of potential long haul symptoms associated with Covid, even asymptomatic Covid.
While most of the Covid data is concerning adults we now have some data on children, mainly out of the UK. But also from the tri-state area, a lot of what we thought to be true were misconceptions.
We all have a right to make our decisions when it comes to everything, including your and your family’s healthcare, but we should at least know the facts.July 16, 2021 3:25 am at 3:25 am #1992288
Avi K, sure the Pfizer vaccine produced such amazing results that masks are mandatory again, the borders are not fully open and infections are going up…July 16, 2021 8:19 am at 8:19 am #1992295
emes nisht sheker, You are not being what the posting name you gave yourself because Dr. Malone is factually the inventor of the RNA vaccine as well as one of the greatest experts in the field. He was the first person to introduce the concept of mRNA vaccines to the scientific world and yes that was in the 80s which was when they actually started working on this technology. Do you think the technology popped up overnight? It took decades to take it to where they could use it without the mRNAs being destroyed by the body’s cells. That there are numerous little websites disputing the fact and it being promoted by Google to “educate” us, does not change that fact. In any case, he is certainly is more knowledgeable than you so I take his words over yours regarding the so-called “coronavirus vaccine”.
As far as me talking about DNA producing RNA, where does evolution come into the picture? Nowhere. It has nothing to do with the evolution, it is simply about what was first at the time of Creation and I have said that we do not know, no human being can know what Hashem created first. The argument had absolutely nothing to do with evolution and is only about if it is scientifically accurate to say that RNA is produced by DNA. You did not understand what I said so it’s ridiculous to comment on it.
There are many doctors and professors in this field who are against this vaccine. There are many doctors who do believe that taking the vaccine is the right thing. Every individual is entitled to believe in which professionals they choose to believe. Who are you to decide in which professional an individual should believe in and regarding what individuals feel are the facts of this vaccine? No one has to agree with your opinions on this subject.
The same for the Rabbonim you mentioned. They are certainly gedolieh hador and please do listen to them but you need to understand that there are other gedolie hador who disagree with them on this topic and also that they are not the poskim that all of klal Yisroel relies upon.
It is absolutely chutzpah to call me an apikoros for not agreeing with you. In fact, I believe that Hashem made human cells with such unfathomable chochmah that we should not mess around with them. Yes, one should take medication to treat disease but I believe that messing with the human body on a cell level verses targeting a specific disease already in the body or strengthening the immune system through regular vaccines, are completely different things. You can certainly disagree with my opinion based on what your Rabbonim paskened and based on what your doctors say. This does not bound me in any way to your decisions.
Calling people names is what the liberal reshuim do so don’t think you are being atzaddik here.July 16, 2021 8:22 am at 8:22 am #1992314
Philosopher, we more and more sound like children, or more harshly peshaim. Hashem sends us certain realities and we deny them and complain that he is bothering us with changes in our way of life up to such miniscule inconveniences as wearing masks and traveling for vacation. Compare current cases and death rates with previous waves and ponder how many lives would be lost if the death rates stay prevaccine. And ponder that increased cases are due to combination of delta and relaxing of behavior.July 16, 2021 9:04 am at 9:04 am #1992343
Always ask, when the Native Americans were exposed to European diseases hundreds died instantly. And then the infection rates went down until herd immunity was acheived. Same happened here in communities where most people were exposed to coronavirus for the first time; first the death rate was extremely high and then it went down BEFORE the vaccine was distributed. Also, the varients vary in intensity and the Delta varient has mutated to the point where it is not as vicious as the original version. All varients were increasingly more moderate to the point that the death rate went down drastically before vaccination distribution. The rates are climbing now after vaccination distribution.
There are ways of treating covid-19 with medication which would’ve lowered the initial as well as the current death rate, but many health professionals ignore those treatments as does the CDC and WHO and the MSM who not only do/did they ignore this info but they also made fun of Trump’s promoting certain medications successfully treat covid-19.July 16, 2021 9:05 am at 9:05 am #1992342🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“You can certainly disagree with my opinion based on what your Rabbonim paskened and based on what your doctors say. This does not bound me in any way to your decisions.”
No, but just like him you should be bound to what your Rabbonim paskened as well.
I don’t have such a strong opinion of the vaccine, but i can’t chose one based on whether or not there are rabbis out there who support it. It has to be yours.July 16, 2021 9:06 am at 9:06 am #1992346emes nisht shekerParticipant
“but I believe that messing with the human body on a cell level verses targeting a specific disease already in the body or strengthening the immune system through regular vaccines, are completely different things”
Checked the yud gimmel ikkarim and this was not one of them. Every day our understanding of the body, including the cells increases. Sounds like you can accept that there is chachma ba’goyim or you can stick your head in the dirt and be ignorant. Maybe instead of calling yourself philosopher, which implies positions based on thought, not belief, you should change your name to something more appropriate.
As to the rest of what you said, you mischaracterize what I said, what you said, and just a generally large load of nonsense that I don’t have the interest to respond to.July 16, 2021 10:46 am at 10:46 am #1992357
Phil, welcome back
“As far as me talking about DNA producing RNA, where does evolution come into the picture? Nowhere”
you are right it has nothing to do with the topic. However you tried to mix it in when you were called out for one of your many factual errors. See your post “There is absolutely an ongoing debate in science which came first DNA or RNA. ” June 21 2021 10:59 AM (I replied later that day )
similarly, what Hashem created first is completely irrelevant, and is merely a distraction you are throwing in.
The bottom line is in human biochemistry DNA is not produced from RNA. Period. (Of course with Reverse transcriptase it is possible, but humans do not have this enzyme. Similarly of course there is a disagreement what historically came first but that is not relevant here, your mixing it in is either confusion on your part or dishonesty)
“There are many doctors and professors in this field who are against this vaccine. There are many doctors who do believe that taking the vaccine is the right thing”
And that is fine. IF those opinions are fact driven. Many of your comments on this thread have been devoid of fact.
” Yes, one should take medication to treat disease but I believe that messing with the human body on a cell level verses targeting a specific disease already in the body or strengthening the immune system through regular vaccines, are completely different things.”
I don’t understand the difference.
Are you opposed to gene therapy? immunotherapy? I was not aware these treatments were even controversial they also “mess with the human body on a cell level”
“Calling people names is what the liberal reshuim do…”
Lol!July 16, 2021 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1992380
Emes nisht sheker, indeed every day our understanding of science increases, what we know today is not absolute. This does not change the fact that chochma bagoyim which I’ve never said there’s none, I said it’s the right of individuals to choose medical treatment according to their beliefs. You realize that chochma bagoyim doesn’t mean that all goyim believe in the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine? Your goyishe “chochumim” are not bigger than mine… What’s the point of derailing the argument over irrelevent topics? Chochma bagoyim, y”g ikkrim, what else will you bring in this discussion to prove absolutely nothing? The knowledge in the scientific and medical world is always being aquired, the knowledge is never absolute, only Hashem knows everything including everything there is to know about the effects, specifically the long-term effects, of this vaccine which no one on planet Earth knows at this point. There are many medications and treatments the medical and scientific commuity has put their faith in that turned out to be dangerous or non-effective. The medical world is always evolving and more knowledge aquired, oftentimes disputing previous findings. Nothing is absolute only Hashem, regardless of chochmas bagoyim. It is so not relevent to this topic unless you are so naive and don’t know the history of medicine and medical practices. Do you also believe in scientists spouting atheist propaganda? Do you think that many scientists and doctors don’t have ulterior motives? Don’t be so naive.
My beliefs are based on I what think are logical conclusions and therefore I call myself philosopher. Logic is not a contradiction with belief. My belief in Hashem is based on logic. Due to the finite nature of human brains we cannot comprehend Hashem until Moshiach comes and therefore belief is required, however there is nothing wrong, in fact it is very Yiddish, to base our beliefs on logic and thought. Abraham Avinu aquired knowledge of God through his logic of understanding that the universe could not have come into existence on its own.
I am mischarcaractherizing nothing of what you said. You have a right to think what I said regarding the coronavirus shot is a loaf of garbage, you don’t have a right to be rude about it.July 16, 2021 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1992393
Ubiquitin, I have not made a factual error regarding saying DNA producing RNA. As far as bringing into the discussion what came first when to prove my point, so what? In fact it was me saying that we cannot know what came first, only Hashem the Creator knows, so what in the world does evolution have to do with this? Absolutely nothing, that’s what. This is not a discussion of evolution, this is discussion of what Hashem CREATED FIRST DURING CREATION.
My opinions are based on facts even if you don’t agree with them, unlike your supposed “fact” that natural RNAs don’t enter the nucleus which is totally false.
That you don’t understand the difference between injecting cell-based shots to “prevent” viruses such as coronaviruses verses treating diseases already in the body, specifically fatal diseases like cancer, doesn’t mean there’s no difference… I do very much believe in gene therapy as a resort of fighting fatal diseases certainly I am pro gene therapy when the gene therapy stays localized in the area that it is supposed to treat unlike cell based coronavirus shots which can travel to the brain causing blood clots. This would be like giving chemotherapy to healthy individuals to prevent mutant cell mutations that is in every single person’s body from turning cancerous! Kol shekein I certainly don’t believe in “potential prevention” of coronavirus through what I believe is incredibly invasive means.
Indeed, liberals resort to name calling when they cannot argue coherently and calling people names on this thread closely resembles angry liberal behavior.July 16, 2021 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #1992405
I believe that every individual should be able to make their own decision regarding getting the coronavirus shot or not.
I believe it will cause harm to more individuals under 18 years of age than coronavirus. That children may be carriers of coronavirus is not an ok excuse to inject them with potentially very harmful substances. Hashem is the One who decides who will live and die and it’s disgusting and ridiculous to inject a shot that HAS ALREADY caused death and serious illnesses in many teens when coronavirus has almost no impact on those under 18 years of age.July 16, 2021 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1992417
At this point in time, with experts assuming but not actually knowing the facts regarding the long term effects of these shots, I am assuming as well that two doses will not have a negative effect on most individuals taking these shots. However, they will need to be repeatedly injected every half a year or so, like flu shots are, likely every half a year or yearly, and I definitely believe repeated injections of these shots would be very dangerous to the human body.
As far as it’s effectiveness, studying the results in Israel, which now with a new lockdown looming, and other countries who have high doses of the shot per capita, it doesn’t seem like the shots have successfully eliminated the rising rates of coronavirus infections which is what they are intentend forJuly 16, 2021 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1992406
“My opinions are based on facts even if you don’t agree with them, unlike your supposed “fact” that natural RNAs don’t enter the nucleus which is totally false.”
Would you be so kind as to point out the source to this, so we can establish if this is fact or fiction?
Your argument against vaccines and preventive medicine has nothing to do with the Covid19 vaccine. This topic has been discussed and in the past by leaders of and leading poskim. The fact that you “believe” it to be unacceptable, should not concern others.July 16, 2021 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #1992432
2cents, I agree my beliefs need not be a concern of others. This thread is titled “covid vaccine for children” and the opening thread asks for opinions on this topic which is what I gave and I also explained how I arrived to this conclusion. Whoever is not interested in my opinion need not read my posts, I am not holding a gun to anyone’s head. I am simply responding to the title and opening post.
As for sources, I have not asked anyone posting on this topic to cite their sources and neither will I cite my sources. To find out this info you don’t need to run to the library and pour over numerous books on cell biology. If you are sitting at a computer commenting on TYW likely you can also access the vast amount of scientific information at your fingertips and research that info yourself. It is very simple, you can type in Google subject line, “mRNA transport into nucleus”. You can also research vRNA (virus RNA) transports into the nucleus and mRNA-proteins (mRNP) into the nucleus. There is no one source, there is a mountain of sources stating that RNAs and also proteins (which the coronavirus vaccine is supposed to make the cells produce) enter the nucleus. The key word to use is “transport” not “enter” . When you are asking can RNAs enter the nucleus Google beings forth articles stating the vaccine’s mRNA do not enter the nucleus. However when you write can RNA transport into the nucleus, you see a wealth of scientific published articles prior to the “coronavirus vaccination’s” release, you can find a wealth of articles on the subject of RNAs and proteins entering or reentering the nucleus.July 16, 2021 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1992437
“As far as bringing into the discussion what came first when to prove my point, so what?”
It doesn’t prove your point, at all it is completely irrelevant.
As a reminder to our discussion.
This was your initial comment
“DNA produces RNA so the vaccine is affecting and modifying the DNA’s natural response.”
Whether or not DNA evolved from RNA or was created before or after RNA has exactly nothing to do with your unsupported assertion that mRNA affects DNA (the subject of this thread)
“I do very much believe in gene therapy as a resort of fighting fatal diseases certainly I am pro gene therapy when the gene therapy stays localized in the area”
you don’t understand gene therapy. How would it even stay local?
“My opinions are based on facts even if you don’t agree with them, unlike your supposed “fact” that natural RNAs don’t enter the nucleus which is totally false.”
would love a source please. I tried googling but I have been unsuccessful, could you please help?
“Kol shekein I certainly don’t believe in “potential prevention” of coronavirus ”
That’s a fair distinction.
Though to clarify, Are you opposed to all vaccines?
“I believe that every individual should be able to make their own decision regarding getting the coronavirus shot or not.”
that’s an entirely different discussion, and not one that I replied toJuly 16, 2021 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1992439
I love learning things I have been googling all these phrases for weeks now (Though admittedly I took a break) and cant find any that discusses mRNA transport INTO the nucleus.
could you be so kind as to provide one such example. You say “There is no one source, there is a mountain of sources ” Surly it is no trouble to just provide one.
thank you in advanceJuly 16, 2021 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1992473
I may have missed the answer, but I did not see it – if someone is scared of mRNA, why don’t you take J&J or old-fashioned Sinovac or Sputnik that are not worse than placebos! Are you afraid that Sputnik will launch you to space?! If this would help end the thread, I am ready to take sputnik myself.
on other notes:
>> Native Americans were exposed to European diseases hundreds died instantly. And then the infection rates went down until herd immunity was acheived.
It seems that majority of population died before the herd immunity was achieved … Those guys were at further disadvantage – they did not have domesticated animals and, thus, no zootic viruses at all. So, their immune system was totally unprepared. Those of us who had kids in schools or went there ourselves, were, Baruch Hashem, exposed to enough viruses to begin with.
>> However, they will need to be repeatedly injected every half a year or so, like flu shots are
I don’t have numbers but qualitatively, the first shots are way more important than the latter ones. Most immediate research measures antibodies in blood, but long-term protection is due to B-cells that will start fighting virus after being infected. so, getting those B-cells informed about a class of viruses is more significant step. This probably explains why vaccine against a new virus achieves 95% hard reduction, while flu vaccine only 70%. for a person who never had a flu, the reduction would be higher too. There is very limited medical data on B-cells so far, like tests with tens of people, so we will need to wait to see real life effects.July 16, 2021 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #1992499
You keep using the word I believe but make sure to label your claims as facts but are unable to cite a decent source.
This makes it difficult to have a reasonable discussion, as you can make random statements and decide that they are facts, when they are just fiction.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.