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February 10, 2011 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #594925shlishiMember
Chicago Rabbinical Council
Guide to Starbucks Beverages
February 2011
Starbucks shops serve many kosher and non-kosher items, with the most serious non-kosher item being hot meat sandwiches. The standard daily clean up at Starbucks includes a hot wash of all utensils and some parts of that washing are done without soap. This clean up process significantly challenges the kosher status of the otherwise kosher products and each product must be judged by a competent halachic authority. The cRc will be printing a detailed review and analysis of this topic in the upcoming edition of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society, and that article will subsequently be available on the cRc website.
February 11, 2011 2:43 am at 2:43 am #739305popa_bar_abbaParticipantOh my. I always said starbucks was a bunch of shkutzim.
February 11, 2011 3:05 am at 3:05 am #739306rabbiofberlinParticipantAnyone who has ever had coffee at starbucks knows that the coffee is always served in paper cups that are thrown away afterwards. Similarly, they do not use spoons btu plastic stirrers. I am at loss to understand the problem. The coffee machines surely are not washed “together’ with anything.
February 11, 2011 3:20 am at 3:20 am #739308Feif UnParticipantThis is a big debate between the cRc and the OU. The OU holds it’s not a problem, the cRc holds that it is.
February 11, 2011 3:52 am at 3:52 am #739309rabbiofberlinParticipantfeif un- can you clarify why the CrC has a problem? When it comes to the coffee- it is made by machines that are dedicated to making coffee and nothing else and, as I said, everything else is disposable.
February 11, 2011 4:27 am at 4:27 am #739310Josh31Participant“I always said starbucks was a bunch of”
Degrading people created BeTzelem Elokim is worse than eating non Kosher.
February 11, 2011 4:31 am at 4:31 am #739311shlishiMembersince starbucks sells treif hot meat sandwiches, why should getting a coffee in starbucks be any different than getting coffee in mcdonalds?
February 11, 2011 4:56 am at 4:56 am #739312rabbiofberlinParticipantand who said you cannot drinmk coffee from mcdonalds? of course, the “maaris ayin” aspect exists with mcdonalds but quiet less with starbucks.
February 11, 2011 5:36 am at 5:36 am #739313Shmuel294MemberFebruary 11, 2011 5:41 am at 5:41 am #739314shlishiMemberrabbiofberlin
and why do you assume that the maaris ayin aspect is less in starbucks than mcdonalds, if both serve treif hot meat sandwiches?
shmuel294
the point of the cRc is that starbucks coffee is NOT kosher.
February 11, 2011 6:11 am at 6:11 am #739315popa_bar_abbaParticipantDegrading people created BeTzelem Elokim is worse than eating non Kosher.
I don’t think so. I think eating non kosher is worse.
Also, I think it is a macholkes whether goyim are created b’tselem, despite the pashut pshat of the mishna.
Also, who was I degrading?
February 11, 2011 6:18 am at 6:18 am #739316shlishiMemberi believe the coffee pots (that the hot coffee is in) as well as the milk containers need to be cleaned regularly, and when starucks cleans them, the cRc is saying, they clean them together with the treif utensils used on meat sandwiches.
February 11, 2011 6:19 am at 6:19 am #739317☕ DaasYochid ☕Participantrabbiofberlin
and why do you assume that the maaris ayin aspect is less in starbucks than mcdonalds, if both serve treif hot meat sandwiches?
I hope the Rabbi doesn’t mind if I answer for him.
Mcdonalds’ primary business is to sell tarfus, so it’s an issue of maris ayin to go in even to buy a soda or coffee; one would naturally assume that the intent is to buy a hamburger. On the other hand, Starbucks’ main product is coffee, so despite the fact that one can also purchase tarfus, it’s not an issue of maris ayin (assuming the coffee is kosher, obviously).
It’s not appreciably different than walking into an Shoprite to buy kosher food, despite the fact that there is much non-kosher food sold as well.
February 11, 2011 6:56 am at 6:56 am #739319Shmuel294MemberShlishi:
Then what is the point of the cRc? They are saying that people should not drink starbucks because they sell other items… What about 7eleven? The coffee there is kosher but they sell hot dogs and stuff and no one seems to mind… Does this mean that we should not buy anything from a store that sells things that are not kosher? Shouldn’t that be maaras eiyin also?
February 11, 2011 7:32 am at 7:32 am #739321shlishiMemberhere is an older discussion of this issue, before the current alert (Feb. ’11) was issued regarding starbucks, by the crc.
http://www.crcweb.org/kosher_articles/popular_latte.php
feifun: what issue exactly did the ou ever say isnt a problem? i havent seen any assertion like that from them, that this issue with starbucks isnt a kashrus problem.
February 11, 2011 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #739322rabbiofberlinParticipantthank you-daas yochid- this is exactly what i meant ! You are always “on the money’ in all issues that you are discussing.
By the way- on a personal level, I have never seen any “treif’ sandwiches in a starbucks. Maybe chicago is different. In any case, there would be a million “tsedoddim lehetter” not least the fact that the vast majority of utensils are washed with soap (I can’t even imagine not using soap)that gives it the “nossen taam lifgam”.
February 11, 2011 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #739323☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThen what is the point of the cRc? They are saying that people should not drink starbucks because they sell other items… What about 7eleven? The coffee there is kosher but they sell hot dogs and stuff and no one seems to mind… Does this mean that we should not buy anything from a store that sells things that are not kosher? Shouldn’t that be maaras eiyin also?
It seems that the cRc is concerned about a different kashrus issue than maris ayin, that the equipment used to make the coffee is problematic.
February 11, 2011 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #739324☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantAnyone who has ever had coffee at starbucks knows that the coffee is always served in paper cups that are thrown away afterwards. Similarly, they do not use spoons btu plastic stirrers. I am at loss to understand the problem. The coffee machines surely are not washed “together’ with anything.
The cRc is apparently asserting that they do wash some of the coffee making equipment together with other utensils. Here’s the link to the OP.
Note that the terminology is vague; they’re not publicly saying that it’s not kosher, just that there is a serious kashrus concern, so ask a competent posek.
February 11, 2011 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #739326popa_bar_abbaParticipantOh. Now I get it. Remember the thread about the frum jews going to treif restaurants? I bet they were going to starbucks.
February 11, 2011 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #739327ItcheSrulikMemberWhich Starbucks stores sell traif meat sandwiches? I don’t go to Starbucks often, but I do not remember ever seeing any meat there at all.
February 11, 2011 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #739328popa_bar_abbaParticipantHere is the menu:
February 11, 2011 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #739329ItcheSrulikMemberHmmm…
Apparently neither of the starbucks I go to have full service. One of them is just a coffee cart in the college cafeteria but the other is a full store, so I’m surprised.
Say, maybe I should walk in with my large kippa and tzitzis hanging out and ask where the bacon is. I might even dust off my old hat for the occasion. 😉
February 11, 2011 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #739330☕ DaasYochid ☕Participantpopa,
That Bacon, Gouda Cheese & Egg Frittata on Artisan Roll looks really good.
Is that real cheese or fake?
February 11, 2011 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #739331popa_bar_abbaParticipantCollege? You walk into a college?
Talk about maris ayin!
February 11, 2011 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #739332popa_bar_abbaParticipantIs that real cheese or fake?
They wouldn’t serve fake cheese- that would be maris ayin. They are shkutzim, but they’re not that bad.
February 11, 2011 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #739333YW Moderator-80MemberThe cRc will be printing a detailed review and analysis of this topic in the upcoming edition of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society, and that article will subsequently be available on the cRc website.
why dont you all wait to see what they have to say?
February 11, 2011 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #739334☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThey wouldn’t serve fake cheese- that would be maris ayin. They are shkutzim, but they’re not that bad.
Their rov might hold fake cheese is not maris ayin.
February 11, 2011 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #739335popa_bar_abbaParticipantwhy dont you all wait to see what they have to say?
We don’t need to wait.
A. Starbucks sells bacon.
B. Bacon comes from pigs.
C. Pigs don’t chew their cud.
D. The pigs in question weren’t shechted properly, nor salted, nor the cheilev taken out, so even if they did chew their cud it wouldn’t be kosher. (Are pigs a chayah?)
E. Therefore, it is assur.
If the CRC wants to wait,that is fine. I’m busy collecting stones.
February 11, 2011 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #739336popa_bar_abbaParticipantTheir rov might hold fake cheese is not maris ayin.
He must be blind.
(That is not so bad; Rav Yosef was also blind and he was an amorah.)
February 11, 2011 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #739337SJSinNYCMemberI’ve only seen pre-wrapped packages at the starbucks near me. I don’t look too closely though.
Once the cRc comes out with their directive, I’ll ask my Rav.
February 11, 2011 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #739338shlishiMemberhow can anyone drink from starbucks even now, knowing what we now know. even if more information if forthcoming, we already know there is a major problem. i dont see how its possible to drink there until and unless any further clarification indicates it is okay.
February 11, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #739339Shmuel294MemberShlishi.
If u want to be extra ????? and not eat at Starbucks keep it to urself. But to post a blog about how “u can’t see how anyone can eat at starbucks is wrong.
edited
February 11, 2011 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #739340shlishiMemberits the cRc kashrus alert. did you even read it?? do you want to drink coffee from a coffee pot washed out together with the knives that cut the bacon sandwiches? that isnt kosher for me or you.
February 11, 2011 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #739342popa_bar_abbaParticipantDO YOU WANT TO EAT A PIG? THE HOOFS? THE SNOUT? THE TUSHES? THE ESOPHAGUS?
February 11, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #739343☕ DaasYochid ☕Participantwhy dont you all wait to see what they have to say?
Because we’re bored now.
Actually, shlishi is right. There’s a concern of issur, so we should wait it out until the dust clears, and if it turns out it’s, fine, go back to using it.
February 11, 2011 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #739344☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantDO YOU WANT TO EAT A PIG?
Yes, but the Torah doesn’t allow me.
THE HOOFS? THE SNOUT? THE TUSHES? THE ESOPHAGUS?
No
February 11, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #739345popa_bar_abbaParticipant“I always said starbucks was a bunch of”
Degrading people created BeTzelem Elokim is worse than eating non Kosher.
That is not fair. You didn’t quote my whole sentence. You are unfairly characterizing what I said.
February 11, 2011 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #739346☕ DaasYochid ☕Participantrabbiofberlin,
thank you-daas yochid- this is exactly what i meant ! You are always “on the money’ in all issues that you are discussing.
I’ll take that as a big compliment, especially since we have not always shared the same opinion; thank you.
By the way- on a personal level, I have never seen any “treif’ sandwiches in a starbucks. Maybe chicago is different. In any case, there would be a million “tsedoddim lehetter” not least the fact that the vast majority of utensils are washed with soap (I can’t even imagine not using soap)that gives it the “nossen taam lifgam”.
I have no idea personally; I don’t frequent Starbucks myself. The cRc does point out that the issue is not in all Starbucks locations. It would be surprising if they don’t use soap, but you never know, maybe the commercial dishwashers are different, or some of the utensils would get ruined by soap (these are total conjecture). I personally have no idea, but I have no reason to think that the cRc is fabricating this.
February 11, 2011 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #739347☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantBut to post a blog about how “u can’t see how anyone can eat at starbucks is wrong.
Why is he any less entitled to express his opinion than you? He’s not physically picking anyone up and bodily removing them from Starbucks (at least I don’t think so; walking in would be maris ayin 😉 )
February 11, 2011 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #739348oomisParticipantsince starbucks sells treif hot meat sandwiches, why should getting a coffee in starbucks be any different than getting coffee in mcdonalds”
The main difference is that when you go to McDonald’s it is NOT for the coffee. A Yid going to Starbucks is ONLY going for the coffee.
As to the question of cleaning the machines – as far as I know, coffee machines are not cleaned like cutlery or dishes. Though I could be mistaken, I believe there is a coffee cleaner that is run through the coffee machine. The only thing that makes the machine “dirty” is the accumulation of coffee oils. Running the coffee brewing cycle with vinegar in the machine, cleans it out completely. If there were ever a “hechsher” on the coffee served in Starbucks, it would have to be that only a kosher cleaning process was utilized. CRC, of course, has raised the relevant question, and it needs to be checked out.
February 11, 2011 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #739349popa_bar_abbaParticipantThough I could be mistaken, I believe there is a coffee cleaner that is run through the coffee machine.
Probably the coffee cleaner is made from pig’s hooves.
February 11, 2011 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #739350oomisParticipantYeah, probably. Or vinegar.
February 11, 2011 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #739351popa_bar_abbaParticipantProbably it is wine vinegar from non kosher wine. (With the hooves)
February 13, 2011 2:01 am at 2:01 am #739352mw13ParticipantJosh31:
“Degrading people created BeTzelem Elokim is worse than eating non Kosher.”
The statement that every human being is created bi’tzelem Elokim (and therefore deserving of respect) is from Pirkei Avos, and not brought down by the Shulchan Orach. That would make it the same halachic level of obligation as, say, getting married at 18, or not talking too much to one’s wife.
Eating non-kosher is a lav di’Oraysa, stated in the actual chumash. It is discussed extensively in the Gemora, Rishonim, and Achronim, and there are pages and pages of Shulchan Orach, Rema, and Mishna Berurah written on the subject.
How can you even compare the two?!
February 13, 2011 2:37 am at 2:37 am #739353Lomed Mkol AdamMembernw13:Mitzvos bain adam l’chaveiro are also lav di’oraysa; how can you judge which is more chamur- bain adam l’chaveiro vs. bain adam l’makom?
February 13, 2011 2:47 am at 2:47 am #739354shlishiMemberlomed
gentiles are not part of bein adam l’chaveiro.
also, what d’oraysa are you specifically referring to?
February 13, 2011 4:32 am at 4:32 am #739355Shmuel294MemberThe concept of kavode habriose
February 13, 2011 6:04 am at 6:04 am #739358mw13ParticipantLomed Mkol Adam:
“Mitzvos bain adam l’chaveiro are also lav di’oraysa”
What lav? “Vi’uhavta li’raiacha kumocha” only applies to “raiacha”, your fellow jew.
rabbiofberlin:
“shlishim–mmmm…how about ‘veohavto lereaicho komocho’?”
See above.
“how about “midvar sheker tirchok”?”
Huh? What does respecting goyim have to do with telling the truth?
“how about “mipnei seivah tokum”?”
This only applies to people over the age of 70.
February 13, 2011 6:05 am at 6:05 am #739359popa_bar_abbaParticipantThere are statements in the gemara which are more or less the same as the deleted comment I made.
I’m sorry if you don’t understand them, or if you disagree with them. I also don’t understand them, but if it’s good enough for the amoraim, it’s good enough for me.
February 13, 2011 6:06 am at 6:06 am #739360shlishiMemberlirayacha means yidden.
no agency certifies starbucks as kosher.
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