There are some credit cards that give you cash back on all purchases.
There are stores that let you return items for 100% cash back on any card (not necessarily the one you purchased it with).
My question is – can I go to a store that has a 100% return policy and buy lets say $20,000 worth of stuff and then go return it and have them put the money back on my debit card – then go and pay the credit card and repeat over and over. Eventually I’ll make some good side pocket cash.
I’m not technically stealing and everything I’m doing is legal. Is there any reason that this is Asur in Halacha?
yesit is stealing you are not allowed to buy something if you know you are definitely going to return it and its stealing from the store because they have to pat a percentage on all credit card purchases. this doesn’t apply to getting two different sizes of something to try on because the store lets due to the fact you are most probably going to buy on e
Ask a sheilah to a qualified Poseik who is known to be makpid on yashrus.
Since it’s been 9 years, I hope you have done so by now.
There was a Kol Koreh about it a few years ago saying that it is geniaveh.
You picked the right screen name. Of course it is stealing. If you can’t see it, you have wasted every minute of time you spent learning Torah.
Fraud is a crime by definition.
It is clearly not gneiva nor is it fraud. The legal definition of fraud is to make a false statement of fact and based on that false presentation of fact to claim money that otherwise that person would not have had a right to. So 1. By stating that a purchase was made there is no implied claim that the item purchased was not returned and 2 it is not at all clear that the credit card company even cares whether the item was returned since the reward is for using the card, which the person did.
And the fact that a kol koreh was issue means only one thing, that somebody printed up a paper and asked some rabbonim to sign it. However just because they signed it does not at all mean that they actually looked into the terms of the reward program and cared as all to know what they were signing on.
Even if it may technically not be fraud or stealing, it is not yashrus. It can also be the start of a slippery slope into real crime. I have seen this happening. A bochur who in yeshiva started ‘selling’ glasses frames, ended up less than 5 years later behind bars for banking fraud.
If you are deemed to be abusing return privileges, the store will most likely ban you. As regards the halacha, I believe this is considered geneivas daas.
No storeowner would sell you an item on a credit card knowing that you intend to retun it. To buy from him with that intention without his knowledge is pure genavus daas. It is also genavas momon because you are causing him to lose 3% or more by “buying” and then returning. He is willing to absorb that loss for legitimate customers but not for genovim who are only looking for points.
As far as the credit company is concerned if you think their position is unclear call them and ask them. Let us know what they tell you.
Just becuase you go to Rabonim and leave out facts (ah ganev bleibt ah ganev…)doesnt mean everyone does.