May 21, 2010 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1170284squeakParticipant
I have, for example, heard that the Baal Shem Tov made such a claim. In that event I would agree that it is impossible to draw an upper bound. In the absense of such claim I see no reason not to.May 21, 2010 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1170285
Gedolim in general are not wont to make claims about their natures, accomplishments or abilities. I have no doubt that their Neshomas are colorful 3-dimensional entities compared to my grey 1-dimensional dark existence.
I have no doubt the Chofetz Chaim, the Steipler, Rav Elyashuv and many others were and are aware of the world in far-reaching ways I cant imagine. I cant prove this to you.May 21, 2010 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1170286squeakParticipant
I disagree with your statement that gedolim do not make claims about their abilities. The Talmud and sifrei Kabbala are rife with examples of such claims. In regard to any gedolim who have not made such claims, why would you lay claim to and attribute supernatural powers to these gedolim if they do not themselves claim to possess any -simply because their stature is loftier than yours and mine?May 21, 2010 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1170287
i didnt say Gedolim never made claims about their abilities. I said they were not wont to. They made such claims when it suited their purpose.
as to your second question, I am unable to satisfactorily answer you.May 21, 2010 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1170288
As far as squeak’s second question, Gedolim themselves were wont to attribute powers to other Gedolim — both of their and previous generations — that those Gedolim themselves never openly claimed.May 21, 2010 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1170289
a person should have a rebbi. and yes consult him even before buying a house, because as i just heard from someone, if you ask daas torah, even if theyre wrong theyre right. know what i mean?May 21, 2010 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #1170290
if you ask daas torah, even if theyre wrong theyre right. know what i mean?
No, I don’t know what you mean. Please elaborate.
The WolfMay 21, 2010 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1170291
when you decide something yourself if you were wrong then you messed up, but if you ask daas torah, first of all they are probably right, and even if they were wrong you still did the right thing by listening to themMay 21, 2010 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1170292
but if you ask daas torah, first of all they are probably right,
I’m not convinced of that.
and even if they were wrong you still did the right thing by listening to them
But what if everything goes wrong? What if it turns out to be the wrong type of move for your family?
The WolfMay 21, 2010 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1170293
but if you ask daas torah, first of all they are probably right,
I’m not convinced of that.
Not that there’s no chance that they can’t be right – they certainly coudl be – but I’m not convinced that they would be correct more often than an expert in the field at hand.
The WolfMay 21, 2010 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1170294
but real daas torah are the experts! and find a rebbi that really knows you and whats best for your family,but if you dont trust daas torah then there is no point in asking their adviceMay 21, 2010 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1170295
but real daas torah are the experts!
Are they? A Rav will know better how to invest in complicated derivatives than a financial expert? A rav will know better than a lawyer how to respond to a lawsuit or criminal complaint? Will they know how to fix an electrical problem in my house better than an electrician?
Yes, it’s possible that they might know better than someone in those fields. But will they know better than the average professional (or expert) in those fields — and be correct on a more consistent basis? I don’t think so.
The WolfMay 21, 2010 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1170296
if you dont trust daas torah then there is no point in asking their advice
Do you think it’s possible that I might value a rav’s advice, but take it into consideration with other factors and not just follow it blindly?
The WolfMay 21, 2010 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1170297
i undersyand that. of course you should ask people that know about that subject,too. youre making it sound like i said that if you need a plumber go call your LOR. I meant when you make big decisions ask daas torah. and if they dont know im sure theyll want to know what the experts in that field sayMay 21, 2010 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1170298
and by a lawsuit you should ask daas torah,tooMay 21, 2010 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1170299
and by a lawsuit you should ask daas torah,too
I have nothing against asking a Rav for advice in any field – in fact, I’m for asking for advice from people with wisdom. What I’m against is the idea that you must follow him blindly regardless of qualifications.
The WolfMay 21, 2010 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #1170300
What I’m against is the idea that you must follow him blindly regardless of qualifications.
Of course you dont have to follow anyone blindly or otherwise. However since i somewhat understand the “qualifications” of Gedolim, and certainly recognize my own glaring ignorance as compared to them, i am quite happy to follow their directives “blindly”May 21, 2010 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1170302HIEParticipant
wolfish: why are you making laytzunus here? A person should go ask advice from proffessionals and after hearing their advice discuss everything with the rav, and explain to the rav what everyone said and THEN ask his advice. Dont ask him what to do when your toilet is stuffed!
I value goody613’s opinion and i believe he is trying to say what i just saidMay 24, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1170303
wolfish: why are you making laytzunus here?
While I am reputed to have a sense of humor (I’ll allow you to judge the quality or lack thereof), I was being serious in this thread and asking serious questions.
explain to the rav what everyone said and THEN ask his advice.
And, you’ll note, I said that I agree with that, in principle. But that doesn’t mean that, in the end, when you make your decision, that you *must* follow his advice. You are free to consider, weigh and ultimate, if you feel so, reject his advice.
The WolfMay 24, 2010 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1170304
WolfishMusings: Based on your various comments throughout this thread, you seem to be assuming the quote from Rav Moshe is addressing the point of when to ask a Talmid Chochom a question. Although that is a fair question, my reading of Rav Moshe is that he is addressing the binding nature of non-halachic advice of a Talmid Chachom once the TC already issued advice on an issue (whether on his own initiative or by request.)
Another issue about your comments that perturbs me is how you seem to constantly attempt to frame your disagreeing with what was said by Rav Moshe, by trying to turn it into my position when in reality it isn’t my position but rather the position of Gedolei Yisroel (that I merely directly quoted verbatim.) Obviously you don’t want to be seen as disagreeing with Gedolei Yisroel, but in reality that is just what you are doing here. (I noticed this same strategy being employed by you on other threads too.) I’ve asked earlier on this thread if anyone can quote and cite another Godol who disagrees with the quote in the OP, but this request has thus far been ignored (other than another posters vague unsubstantiated claim that someone “disagrees.”)May 24, 2010 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1170305
Another issue about your comments that perturbs me is how you seem to constantly attempt to frame your disagreeing with what was said by Rav Moshe, by trying to turn it into my position when in reality it isn’t my position but rather the position of Gedolei Yisroel (that I merely directly quoted verbatim.)
That’s a fair criticism, but allow me to follow up with a question.
Do you agree with what Rav Moshe? If so, then is it not your contention as well?
The wolfMay 24, 2010 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1170306
Who am I to agree? That is like asking if I agree with Rashi. Agree? Me? I don’t even understand such language.
But even for arguments sake let’s say I quote “agree” with Rav Moshe, that is completely secondary. The main point is that it is Rav Moshe’s position. Not peanuts who fancy themselves “agreeing” with Gedolei Yisroel. You can’t frame your argument as disagreeing with someone who is merely accepting the Rashkbhag’s clearly enumerated statement.
P.S. Is the lowercase “w” in the signature of your last post a reflection of newly found humility? 😉May 24, 2010 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1170307
P.S. Is the lowercase “w” in the signature of your last post a reflection of newly found humility? 😉
It’s a typo. 🙂 I’m not even worthy of humility. 🙂
Seriously, however, if you’re accepting the statement at face value, then you *are* making it your contention as well — just as it is, no doubt, your contention that we were slaves in Egypt, that God exists and that Rav Moshe was the Rashkbhag.
The WolfMay 24, 2010 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1170308
On the same token, if someone were to “disagree” (G-d forbid) that we were slaves in Egypt, I suppose you could frame that as being a disagreement with me. But in fact it would be proper to note that he is in fact disagreeing with the Torah.May 24, 2010 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1170309
On the same token, if someone were to “disagree” (G-d forbid) that we were slaves in Egypt, I suppose you could frame that as being a disagreement with me. But in fact it would be proper to note that he is in fact disagreeing with the Torah.
That’s absolutely correct.
But one cannot argue (meaning actually debate) with the Torah because the Torah is not a living, speaking person. OTOH, you can argue with someone who purports to hold the same opinions.
But one would think that if you are agreeing with X (whatever point X happens to be) then you aren’t doing so blindly but that you must have your reasons for asserting and agreeing with X. In that respect, the person is arguing with you over X, even if you are not the originator of X.
The WolfMay 25, 2010 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1170312
R’ Moshe Feinstein wrote the following in the Igros Moshe (OC 109, Page 173, bottom of the right hand column):
?? ????? ???? ???”? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????.
In modern times (he wrote it over 50 years ago – how much more so today!), there is nobody on the level of a gadol that it is forbidden to argue with.May 25, 2010 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1170313YW Moderator-80Member
Who is he referring to who is able to argue with a Godol, anyone?May 25, 2010 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1170314
Mod-80: I’m not sure. I do know that when I wrote something that my Rosh Yeshiva said, trying my best asked if he’s on the stature of R’ Moshe.
I don’t think anyone alive today is on the stature of R’ Moshe zt”l. However, according to R’ Moshe’s teshuvah, I don’t think he needs to be.May 25, 2010 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1170316
I never saw it inside, but I’d bet a doughnut that Reb Moshe is referring to one posek arguing with another posek, and not a man on the street arguing with a talmid chochom like Reb Moshe was talking about in the first posting here.May 26, 2010 1:38 am at 1:38 am #1170317
so right: yet when I wrote what my Rosh Yeshiva said, I was questioned whether he’s on the same level as R’ Moshe.May 26, 2010 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1170318
well you never said which rosh yeshiva (other than claim he is well known/respected), so i don’t believe it is fair to compare the position of an anonymous rosh yeshiva (especially since theres no way to verify your claim) against Reb Moshe.May 26, 2010 3:45 am at 3:45 am #1170319torahyidParticipant
DR Solovaitchick disagrees withe Gadol Hador ,SO?? Who would u rely on a PhD or R’ Moishe UMMMMMay 26, 2010 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1170320
torahyid: You insult someone you know nothing about. The Rav zt”l was a member of the Moetzes. R’ Hutner zt”l said that the Rav was one of the gedolei hador. He was a gaon on a level you don’t understand. How dare you insult him like that!May 26, 2010 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1170321cherrybimParticipant
torahyid – What chutzpa! How are you ever going to get m’chila for being m’vazeh a tzadik and one of the greastest g’dolim in Torah in many generations. Yom kippur is not m’chaper for this type of aveira.May 26, 2010 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1170322
I know that you’re probably not an old fogey like me, so let me impart a bit of wisdom to you.
As you go through life, you’re going to find people who take joy in snide comments, disparaging remarks and outright insults at people who don’t exactly fit their mold. Their idea of shivim panim laTorah is kind of like Henry Ford’s ideas about colors for the model T — you can have any color you like, so long as it’s black.
While most people would consider it perfectly acceptable to respectfully take issue with the Rav’s* positions on varying matters, there are some who prefer to take the low road and instead simply issue snide ad hominem attacks. Such attacks, in my estimation, only reveal more about the character of the person issuing them than the character of the person at whom they are aimed.
* Or anyone else’s for that matter.May 26, 2010 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1170323
You need to figure out who the bigger Gedolim are. Some people think that you are not allowed to “compare levels”, but this thought is untrue and an error in logic. Untrue, for we can compare “levels” – in fact, we need to in order to judge who is an authority in the first place! If you cant comapre levels then how are you to know that someone is a godol? The fact that he is “accepted” as a godol only means that many people have judged his “level” to be that of a godol, but if you cannot compare levels, then these people have no right to accept him as a godol in the first place. And the same common sense that tells you so-and-so stands out among his peers making him an authority, tells you that certain so-and-so’s stand out even more. Or less.
Part of knowing who to follow is to know who is greater. Godol mimenu b’chochma ubaminyan is an assessment that it legitimately made. And as Rav Shach writes – if you dont know who to follow, follow whoever is greater – and, he adds, you can of course tell who is greater. If you yourself dont know, then thats fine – not everyone can know the answer to all questions they encounter – but why in the world should you say nobody else can know? And it’s an error in logic, too, because people who say you cant compare have compared “levels” (i.e. by saying so-and-so is a godol) of other people! And how would they know this if you cannot compare him to other poskim?
And how can one know whether “any of us are on the madreiga of assessing the ‘levels’ of other people” unless you assessed the levels of all those other people who said aren’t on the “madgreigah” to do that? If i were to ask you who is greater – Rav Soloveitchik or Rabi Avika — would you say you cannot compare people? Rav Soloveitchik or the Rambam? Avraham Avinu? So clearly, we can compare “levels”, its just that to some people, certain comparisons are “obvious” and others are not. Well, to other people, perhaps who are more knowledgable and skilled in assessing these kinds of values, other comparisons are also obvious.May 26, 2010 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1170324
trying- I agree. People should follow their Rebbeim. If you are in doubt as to who you should have as your Rebbeim, then you are fully entitled to follow those who find more favor in your eyes. You have to choose somehow, and its better to choose based on who you hold is bigger, or more correct, rather than whatever the newspapers or internet say you should do.May 26, 2010 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1170325
Trying my best: I wasn’t arguing over whether the Rav was greater than R’ Moshe or not. I was upset over the disrespect shown by torahyid. He emphasized the word Dr. and left off Rabbi. He then asked if you’d trust a PhD over R’ Mosh. He completely ignored the fact that R’ Soloveitchik was an enormous gadol. I’m sure torahyid’s Rebbe would give it to him over the head if he knew what he wrote. You may disagree with him, but don’t you dare insult him like that! Many people disagree with some rabbonim over numerous issues. How would people react if I’d write about them the way that torahyid wrote about the Rav zt”l (not that I’d do it). torahyid, you need to change your name. You definitely don’t represent Torah.May 26, 2010 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1170326HealthParticipant
Unfortunately, some people think that what ever a Rosh Yeshiva says is Daas Torah. Even if the Rosh Yeshiva is really a Godol doesn’t make everything he says Daas Torah. R’ Moshe that was quoted in the opening paragraph was probably talking about someone like himself. He was a godol b’torah and more significantly to us he was a Poisek. If a Poisek who’s also a Godol says something political, then people have to listen- this is true Daas Torah. If a godol (eg. Rosh Yeshiva), says something political this doesn’t automatically become Daas Torah, just like if he would pasken a shaila, it wouldn’t automatically become Halacha. The same is true vice-versa, if your local Poisek who you call just to find out your basic halachos, would say something political, doesn’t make this Daas Torah. The poisek probably doesn’t have the depth and knowledge of the torah to make everything he says Daas Torah. In every generation that Hashem created, he gave us the seichel to discern what is right or wrong; we must use it and decide ourselves how to act.May 26, 2010 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1170327
Rav Moshe said that when a “Talmid Chochom” decides a political matter (i.e. something not specifically a halachic issue), and someone doesn’t follow it, he effectively denies that a Torah scholar’s wisdom is superior. And he therefore cannot be considered within the Torah camp.May 26, 2010 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1170328gavra_at_workParticipant
First of all, the Quote is from E”H 2:11, not 2:1 (primary sources!?)
Second, most Poskim disagree with Rav Moshe in that example (that AI CAN not create a Mamzer by definition, and that AI is Mutar). Rav Moshe claims it is because they are biased and do not use only “Torah” to come to a P’sak, but also their personal opinions!
So, we have Rav Moshe who says its possible (and has happened) that “Da’as Torah” paskened not based on Torah, but “outside influences.
Which leaves us to decide if the Posek is biased or not? Or better idea, your Rav can do his research, and based off of his understanding, come to a P’sak for you.May 26, 2010 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1170329
“Which leaves us to decide if the Posek is biased or not?”
No. Only another posek can disagree. The man on the street can’t.May 26, 2010 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1170330HealthParticipant
Trying my best -What I was trying to explain – was that perhaps when R’ Moshe says “Talmid Chochom”, he didn’t mean anybody who is a talmid chochom, but rather a talmid chochom similar to himself -one is a talmid chochom and a poisek and of course a “Godol”. Your definition of “Talmid Chochom” is too broad. Some people consider anybody learning in Yeshiva or Kollel a “Talmid Chochom”. Acc. to them, it would come out anybody not listening to a Kollel guy’s political view, isn’t within the “Torah camp”.May 26, 2010 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1170331
And maybe Rav Moshe also meant the Talmid Chochom — like Rav Moshe — needs a white beard, be over the age of 65, and have immigrated from Russia? Well Rav Moshe didn’t add all these additional qualifications that you and I mentioned for a reason.May 26, 2010 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1170333gavra_at_workParticipant
One can not trust an unknown “Posek” not to have Negius.
That’s why everyone needs a Rav whom they can trust to pasken for them without Negius. One of course can not Pasken for themselves, under the well-known rule of “Adam Karov Etzel Azmo” 🙂May 26, 2010 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1170334charliehallParticipant
Trying my best,
Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l and Rav Shach z’tz’l both supported Land for Peace. Do you believe that anyone who disagreed with them are not “within the Torah camp”?May 26, 2010 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1170335charliehallParticipant
“Dr. Soloveitchik” is an ambiguous term. Not only did The Rov earn a doctorate, so did his wife, a brother, his son, and both daughters. And both daughters married rabbis with earned doctorates.May 26, 2010 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1170336
charliehall: As you ably mentioned Daas Torah supported Land for Peace. I’m all for it. Life is far more valuable than land, and if it is even a possibility that giving them land will save a single life it is more than worth it and obligatory. So what’s the question?May 26, 2010 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #1170338rescue37Participant
Trying my best,
On the other hand, other Dass Torah did not support land for peace. How can Daas Torah disagree? If Rabbi A says vote for X and Rabbi Y says vote for B, what are you supposed to do? not vote?May 26, 2010 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1170339
rescue37: There is no stira that DT sometimes might disagree with each other. You should have a Rov who is a Talmid Chochom to follow and pasken for you.
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