"Dating Early" Kol Koreh- Who's missing?

Home Forums Shidduchim "Dating Early" Kol Koreh- Who's missing?

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 69 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #607703

    Bar Shattya
    Member

    Recently there has been published a Kol Koreh implying that guys should start dating earlier than they feel ready in order to solve the Shidduch “crisis”. Many Choshuv rabbis signed this Kol Koreh including such dignitaries as R’ Reuven Feinstein and R’ Malkiel Kotler. Someone brought to my attention and I recognized it to be a truth that what says more about an idea like this is not who IS signed on, but who is NOT signed on. When an initiative comes before you that purports to save a thousand agunos and the idea sounds somewhat reasonable it would seem that it is much simpler to add your name than to start analyzing and probing until you figure out what the torahs hashkafa is. I am not saying that those who signed didn’t analyze, but I am saying that someone who abstained clearly analyzed and feels this Kol Koreh is not a good idea.

    Now therefore to get a better picture of the truth I thought it a good to look for who is missing and clearly wasn’t left off by accident and maybe you folks noticed a few also.

    Some examples may include,

    R’ Shmuel Kaminetzky

    R’ Avrohom Chaim Levin

    R’ Aharon Feldman (Especially interesting as I heard he tells talmidim to date earlier regardless of any chesed concerns.)

    R’ Dovid Harris

    R’ Mattisyahu Solomon

    #918291

    SaysMe
    Member

    personal opinion: let girls start later instead. Getting people to start when they’re not ready or not mature enough just sounds like a really bad idea to me!

    #918292

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That kol koreh was not meant to convince guys to date younger; it was simply meant to make the promoters of the kol koreh feel good.

    Think about it. If you want to convince guys to date younger, then you need to get the people who are advising them, to tell them that.

    Who is advising bochurim when to start dating? Their roshei yeshiva. But most of the roshei yeshiva are not signed on the list. Yes, a few are, but mainly the list is trying to get the “gedolim”.

    Well, when I make a big decision, I don’t poll the gedolim–I ask my rebbeim. They should have gotten all the roshei yeshiva of all the Lakewood feeders around the tri-state area to sign–since that is who the guys are asking. They probably did ask them, and they said no.

    #918293

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t think it said to go out before you’re ready, just not to push it off any longer once you’re ready.

    #918294

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t think it said to go out before you’re ready, just not to push it off any longer once you’re ready.

    Consider that sentence again. Nobody was ever pushing it off after they were ready.

    #918295

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They were, in order to continue to learn without “reichayim al tzavaro”. But they were emotionally ready to handle marriage.

    Mind you, I think it’s a perfectly good reason to push it off.

    #918296

    It would be a good idea for both boys *and* girls to get married earlier.

    #918297

    Bar Shattya
    Member

    Daas yochid may decide to notice that was discussing the implications of what was said instead of what was actually written.

    But if you would like to merely discuss the actual printed words I hope you are even more impressed with these great men who thought it a bad idea to press such an idea

    #918298

    Yatzmich
    Member

    Pardon my frankness, but to have bochurin start dating early is a rediculous, non-sensical idea! If the divorce rate among young frum couples is on the rise, which unfortunately it is, then having bochurim starting to date at an earlier age will increase that rate tremendously. Today’s bochurim are less mature, not more mature. SaysMe is right. Have the girls wait till they’re 21 at least, to start dating. They’ll be more mature too, and they’ll probably have some type of career path set up and have a more solid stance on what their looking for in a husband, as well.

    As far as who is missing from the so called “Kol Koreih,” Start with many of the Ziknei HaDor such as Reb Yosef Rosenblum Shli”ta, Reb Chaim Epstein Shli”ta.

    #918299

    stanleyc
    Member

    I’m already on my third marriage. i’m not sure whats so difficult

    #918300

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The NASI ad reads: “…our Gedolim have called on us to encourage our bochurim to get married a the earliest appropriate time”. i don’t have the text of the actual Kol Koreh which was signed by many gedolim, but IIRC it was similar.

    #918301

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    It makes little sense. Historically, girls have always generally married boys somewhat older than themselves. Most somehow get married. That’s life. It’s a manufactured crisis. Back when giving birth had a 50% fatality rate, there were not enough girls.

    Pushing boys to marry earlier may relieve the dating crisis, but not the broken engagements/ divorce crisis.

    #918302

    This issue needs to be reframed in order to better deal with it. The root of the problem is being mis-described as boys dating too late. But that is only one (arguable) aspect of what the “shidduch crisis” is.

    The “shidduch crisis”, if there’s such a thing, is really just a small part of series of effects that comes from a series of practices in the Yeshivishe community. In a world without these practices, there might be people ending up unmarried, but it wouldn’t be a “shidduch crisis”.

    As with any commodity, regulation creates inefficiencies. For starters, in the Shidduch system, 1. All the males are pretty much in one place, or at the very least, in one region; while the women are spread throughout the country 2. The instrumentalities through which men and women can end up together are highly limited; 3. The criteria through which men and women define the subject of their search are limited and poorly chosen both in terms of creating and then defining a meaningful objective; and do not account for anything outside a set of predetermined types.

    This creates major problems for women who live anywhere outside the tri-state area. While almost everyone would admit in theory that they would prefer to marry someone with whom they “click” over someone who meets a set of criteria; in the current system, not only to men and women never get a chance to meet each other, but even people who know men, like their friends from yeshiva, their roshei chabura, etc. never meet people who know women, like the principal of a Beis Yaakov in LA. So we’re stuck here with a system that essentially demands representation. But there are lots of people who cannot have meaningful representation – quieter men; people with particular interests and hobbies that the “professional shadchanim” have never heard of; women who have lived in Montreal their whole lives and aren’t particularly beautiful or wealthy.

    Focusing on the “age problem”, if there even is one, is not likely to do much except make some people feel good because they got a sign posted on the BMG bulletin board. But in order for something meaningful to change, there must be a systemic change in the makeup of the yeshiva system, in the way that men and women meet, and in the expertise of the people involved in the process.

    #918303

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    1- Who is ever ready? ha.

    2- Chassidm get married younger because that is the mindset form the they they are born. If Litvaks can change the mindset, they too will be “as ready” a year or more earlier.

    #918304

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, Bar Shattya, I did notice the implications. But as I said, some choose to wait, even some time after being emotionally ready.

    Also, the freezer forces some additional waiting time, so the kol koreh would suggest going to Lakewood earlier than the current norm.

    #918305

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    But they were emotionally ready to handle marriage.

    Emotionally ready? Why not just say “ready”? I assume the kol koreh means when they are actually ready in all respects with no qualifications.

    #918306

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I assume the kol koreh means when they are actually ready in all respects with no qualifications.

    I don’t.

    #918307

    squeak
    Participant

    The NASI ad reads: “…our Gedolim have called on us to encourage our bochurim

    Let’s be honest. I find that hard to believe. The Gedolim were calling on them to do this? From everything I’ve seen going back to the beginning, it’s a major campaign for these NASI guys to get the signatures; certainly no one is chasing them down to do it. Next up, we’ll be getting photoshopped ads from Kupat Hair showing the Gedolim banging down the doors to call on the tzedaka collectors to offer “segulos” via airmail.

    That kol koreh was not meant to convince guys to date younger; it was simply meant to make the promoters of the kol koreh feel good.

    Possibly, but the primary purpose of the kol korehs is a curtain for AZ and his ilk to hide behind. You may mean the same thing. What better way to silence the intelligent opposition than to make it seem like they oppose the Gedolim? Brand them as koifers and every time someone dissents the masses will genuflect and cover their children’s ears.

    They can self-promote only by hiding the problems with their mission statement.

    #918308

    147
    Participant

    Having read this complex issue, 1 question still eludes me & my spouse badly:- Given that all of these correspondence have us believe that it should be relatively easy for a boy to get married, unlike for a girl, so why is it, that I & my spouse seem to know so many more single men than single women out there? Are we missing something? or are we out of the loop?

    #918309

    haifagirl
    Participant

    Having read this complex issue, 1 question still eludes me & my spouse badly:- Given that all of these correspondence have us believe that it should be relatively easy for a boy to get married, unlike for a girl, so why is it, that I & my spouse seem to know so many more single men than single women out there? Are we missing something? or are we out of the loop?

    I also seem to know a lot of single men and can’t think of any women for them.

    #918310

    @147: You live in Lakewood, where all the men converge (or possibly in the tri-state area where they come home from Thursday to Monday). If you lived outside the tri-state area, where yeshivish, marriageable men only appear for Pesach and the first days of Sukkos, you’d only know of women.

    #918311

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Kol Korehs about theories are wonderful. But watch what the roshei yeshiva encourage their talmidim, their children and grandchildren to do.

    When NASI was trying to tinker with the shidduch model, that was one thing. Now they are trying to tinker with the entire yeshiva system. Those would be very treacherous waters in which to tread.

    #918312

    147:

    I & my spouse seem to know so many more single men than single women out there? Are we missing something? or are we out of the loop?

    Very much out of the loop. How I wish I could contact you! In the same families, the sons are grabbed up and the girls sit and wait. (Yes, you can answer that the boys are obviously marrying girls, so why are there more older single girls? Somehow all girls schools have many more older singles than the guys schools do. Possibly because the girls being chosen are often way younger than the guys, leaving older girls with no one to date- I know youve heard that before. Btw, my acquaintances who have their daughters on Nasi, arent getting dates from them, so thats certainly not the solution).

    #918313

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I & my spouse seem to know so many more single men than single women out there? Are we missing something? or are we out of the loop?

    Very much out of the loop. There are multiple single girls for every single guy. A single guy who is a quarter normal can have a new date every day of the week, if he likes.

    #918314

    golfer
    Participant

    147, I for one, do not think you & yours are out of the loop. My husband and I also know quite a few older (over 30) singles. I’d say the proportion among our acquaintances is about equal between men & women.

    Anyone interested in adding their vote to the discussion?

    While there possibly may be a greater number of older single women, there are still a large number of men who have not succeeded in finding their better half as well. I would have to conclude that there is more at play here than simple demographic issues. There is definitely a great need to give the problem some realistic appraisal & study, instead of relying on simplistic solutions that may possibly do more harm than good.

    #918315

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Teach the boys about responsibility a little earlier.

    Many boys have not held so much as a part-time job. How can they enter into the tremendous responsibilities of marriage?

    #918316

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Everything comes from Hashem, and all’s fair in love and war.

    Whatever the situation is, you need to manipulate the system in your favor.

    I do find that boys are much more diverse than girls religiously. It’s fine with me as long as a Rav is in the picture, but I can see other girls being turned off by someone who is not exactly like their father/brother/seminary teacher.

    #918317

    N.G
    Member

    R’ Dovid Harris was offered to sign but he doesn’t think it is a good idea.

    #918318

    torah613613torah,

    Everything comes from Hashem…

    What a horrifyingly callous attitude! Whoever can help and isnt, is guilty in being accomplices in this torture of girls!

    We could have had the same attitude of “Everything comes from Hashem” when are brethren were roasting in the gas chambers.

    I am NOT trying to compare the two, but girls getting older and older and older, with no hope of marrying in sight, is a very painful and sad Matzav to be in. As many older single girls as there are now, the numbers will very much increase if we dont do something dreastic now in addition to Tefilah.

    We clearly need to do more than react with “Everything comes from Hashem”.

    This is a test of our sensitivities to our Jewish sisters’ pain. Will we pass? Do we care enough if we pass the test?

    #918319

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    I’m a single girl, Medium Size Shadchan, and not callous.

    :rant:

    Rather than marry boys older, I suggest a drastic increase in humility. Girls should realize that boys are different and not expect them to be on exactly the same ruchniyus and maturity level, as long as the right values are in place. And boys should stop thinking they can cherry pick girls.

    Everyone thinks they are perfect. The girls, who have never dealt with the outside world, don’t understand the challenges they will face will change them and don’t appreciate the nisayon-free life they have led. And the boys think that if they are halfway decent, all the girls should fall head over heels on sight.

    Borei Nefashos Rabos V’Chesronam, we all have our flaws so we

    should help each other. Hashem will help us find the right one, as he helped our parents and their parents etc. through the generations, or else you wouldn’t be here.

    Let’s relax, work on improving ourselves, realize we’re not perfect and can’t expect to marry someone perfect, and maybe accept that our zivug may come from somewhere we don’t expect.

    Please, fellow single girls, stop worrying about getting married! Once you get married, there are bills to pay, kids to raise, and their shidduchim to worry about… it’s never-ending. Enjoy life and let the boys work for something for once!

    :endrant:

    #918320

    yehudayona
    Participant

    torah613613torah, what exactly is the “broken engagement crisis?” It seems to me that broken engagements are vastly better than divorces.

    #918321

    Curiosity
    Participant

    You go, T613!!!! 🙂

    #918322

    arc
    Participant

    I saw the KK, it’s nice that they sign it. If they dont send bochrim to Israel earlier it doesnt matter

    #918323

    torah613613torah,

    Please, fellow single girls, stop worrying about getting married! Once you get married, there are bills to pay, kids to raise, and their shidduchim to worry about… it’s never-ending.

    OY! Most older single girls would happily trade all the above not to have to worry about their biological clocks ticking, the fear of never holding their own child, the embarassment of having to dye their hair, lest anyone see them look like an “old maid”, living a life of loneliness, and being the rachmonus case among the marrieds.

    Put the both piles on a scale, and see which is the harder to bear peckel. The Tzaros you mention are normal Tzaros, not nearly as humiliating and nearly as depressing Tzaros as the Tzaros of older single girls.

    Gimme a break! Thats my rant!

    Something must be done!

    #918324

    Reflect
    Member

    Is the age gap a major factor or are social issues a bigger cause of the problem? How many boys are compromising values and marrying into families that would not be compatible for their sister?

    #918325

    Well, my rebbeim and Rosh Yeshiva have been telling me that I should start dating for a while now, and I’m still pushing it off, (I’m 21) I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to continue learning without the constant thought of “where’s this month’s rent coming from?” etc. Another problem which I see all my friends dealing with is that the girls aren’t exactly sure what they want, they want millionaire yeshiva bachurim (which unfortunately in most cases, that’s a stirah minei ubei lol), and that’s a pretty big problem. Will guys really start dating sooner if he knows that in a certain amount of time she’s going to ask him to start working and bringing in a nice salary? How many guys are actually willing to do that? We’re not sure exactly if/when that’ll happen, so how will we react?

    #918326

    Reflect
    Member

    So, Rabbi Perfect you don’t feel that you have an obligation to marry and raise a family. Your mentors feel that you do but you are not prepared to accept their advice at the cost of having to pay the bills. I imagine the could sell you on the concept of marriage if comes along with a large bank account and long term support. Of course you weren’t looking for a poor peasant, but if we can convince you to make money your first priority we will be on our way to solving the crisis.

    #918327

    WIY
    Member

    Medium size shadchan

    I won’t rant but my personal opinion is that there aren’t enough quality sjadchanim out there and many shadchanim are busy peddling the same 100 boys to the same 200 girls. Basically if you aren’t from the right family or the right bank account or if you don’t harass the shadchan to death you have no chance. The real crisis is a lack of enough quality shadchanim who are looking to get people married as opposed to just making rich flashy shidduchim.

    #918328

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Yehudayona: I believe pressuring men to marry before they are “ready” would just cause broken engagements when they become terrified of the commitment. Of course, we can’t know without running a well-designed study which is ethically questionable.

    Thanks, Curiousity.

    Medium Size Shadchan:

    Let’s talk about our priorities. We are here to serve Hashem and do our best in whatever situation He puts us in. Right now, I’m single and trying to use my time to help others and develop myself so that I’ll be a good Jewess, wife and mother when I marry IYH. This is not a sad situation.

    Note: We say “Im Yirtze Hashem”. IF Hashem wishes. Because it’s up to Him and not up to you or me. Like everyone, I sometimes worry about never getting married. But what’s the point of worrying? Does it make me happier? More productive? A more marriageable person?

    Now back to tzaros. ??? comes from ????, or a siege. A person with ???? is unable to break out of their current situation, they feel locked in. But if we realize that we can grow whatever the situation, it turns into ????, a window through which we can see the light.

    You say that once you get married, all tzaros are normal. I don’t buy that. All tzaros are painful to those who experience them. It’s quite callous, if I may use that word, to say that one tzarah counts more than another.

    It’s certainly very sad if we can’t use our bodies for the purposes Hashem made us female; the sanctification of marriage and building the world through children. Chana, mother of Shmuel HaNavi, davened that she should have children for this reason. Rochel Imenu allowed her sister to marry Yaakov even though she realized this may result in her never being able to marry, since the other option was Esav (talk about 50% never marrying!).

    Does it really matter if their tzaros were normal?

    B”N, I am now taking a 24 hour moratorium on posting on the YWN CR.

    #918329

    always on thyme
    Participant

    I think everyone is missing the point. The young men are not able to bring in any kind of parnassa. Of course the thought of having to marry someone who is not from a home that can support a young couple for years and years is quite daunting. That would put any young man’s thoughts on marriage on the back burner until he is offered a young woman ‘from a comfortable family’ able to support. Why aren’t the bochrim taught during one seder some kind of profession. Taking courses after a few years of marriage(when a lot of debt has been incurred) is foolish. While he is learning, give him instruction in a profession for two hours a day. It will not take away from his learning, but it will mature him, prepare him for the future responsibilities and open him up to seeing girls from less affluent families. Then I think the ‘crisis’ will have been somewhat alleviated!

    #918330

    WIY,

    The real crisis is a lack of enough quality shadchanim who are looking to get people married as opposed to just making rich flashy shidduchim.

    Not at all!

    Maybe there are a couple of well known Shadchanim, who are well known for only tending to high society, money, or Yichus or both together, $hidduchim. Outside of those, I think most Shadchanim are looking to make any Shidduch for the high they get when making any Shidduch, and get in the area of $1,000 or somewhat higher per side for the countless hours they spend on Shidduchim, the bulk of which go nowhere.

    In general though, Shadchanim find it easier to work with, and have a higher success rate with low lying fruit- young, still flexible and not yet set in their ways and stubborn, relatively desirable singles, who the Shadchanim see as those (both parent and child) really wanting to get married, based on how many the singles decline and accept and how long the list of specs they require is.

    #918331

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If they dont send bochrim to Israel earlier it doesnt matter

    The point is to get them to skip E.Y. or at least cut their time time there shorter.

    #918332

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    While he is learning, give him instruction in a profession for two hours a day. It will not take away from his learning

    Of course it will take away from his learning.

    #918333

    Naftush
    Member

    Medium Size Shadchan spoke about preferring “low lying [sic — it’s “low hanging”] fruit- young, still flexible and not yet set in their ways and stubborn.” But today’s shidduch “system” acts against flexibility at any age. It promotes rigid typecasting, scripted “dates,” choreographed weddings, etc. The “solutions” offered by most commenters call for more of the same: rigorization of the shadchan “industry,” collective panacaea such as shorter visits to E.Y. earlier onset of dating, and so on. Human engineering hasn’t worked anywhere else; why here?

    #918334

    shmoel
    Member

    DY: There is a benefit for one’s hasmada and limud Torah by going to Eretz Yisroel. How do you justify encouraging losing this tremendous benefit?

    #918335

    WIY
    Member

    DY

    Why can’t all this learning be done post chasunah? So go to kollel for an extra year or 2?

    Maybe if we guys felt the pressure of having to marry earlier we would feel the need to grow up quicker and mature quicker. Some guys at 21 are still babies but if they knew they would be hitting the shidduchim market at 21 they would grow up at 20 and look at life more seriously at an earlier age.

    #918336

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    As DY & always on thyme both point out, a bochur who wants to learn full time (as many do) has significant incentives to marry later, both to have less time that he may need to support (with no hope of a standard parnassah) AND to hold out for the possibility of “Life Support” from a rich Shver.

    The “Kol Koreh” does not change that, or change any of the reasons behind it. I see this one being ignored, as it is not in the best interests of the bochrim (both materially & spiritually) on whom the onus is to change.

    #918337

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I didnt see the purported kol koreh, but the proof is in the pudding. Of the signatories to the kol koreh, how many of the bachurim in their yeshivos have started dating earlier in the last 3 months (I dont know the answer to this question either).

    #918338

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    WIY,

    See Rash”i Kidushin 29b s.v. “l’hu” (five lines from the botom).

    #918339

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    How many READ the Kol Koreh as opposed to signing it, Its well known that most approbations are signed without the book ever being read

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 69 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending