"Dating Early" Kol Koreh- Who's missing?

That kol koreh was not meant to convince guys to date younger; it was simply meant to make the promoters of the kol koreh feel good.

Think about it. If you want to convince guys to date younger, then you need to get the people who are advising them, to tell them that.

Who is advising bochurim when to start dating? Their roshei yeshiva. But most of the roshei yeshiva are not signed on the list. Yes, a few are, but mainly the list is trying to get the “gedolim”.

Well, when I make a big decision, I don’t poll the gedolim–I ask my rebbeim. They should have gotten all the roshei yeshiva of all the Lakewood feeders around the tri-state area to sign–since that is who the guys are asking. They probably did ask them, and they said no.

I don’t think it said to go out before you’re ready, just not to push it off any longer once you’re ready.

Consider that sentence again. Nobody was ever pushing it off after they were ready.

It would be a good idea for both boys *and* girls to get married earlier.

Pardon my frankness, but to have bochurin start dating early is a rediculous, non-sensical idea! If the divorce rate among young frum couples is on the rise, which unfortunately it is, then having bochurim starting to date at an earlier age will increase that rate tremendously. Today’s bochurim are less mature, not more mature. SaysMe is right. Have the girls wait till they’re 21 at least, to start dating. They’ll be more mature too, and they’ll probably have some type of career path set up and have a more solid stance on what their looking for in a husband, as well.

As far as who is missing from the so called “Kol Koreih,” Start with many of the Ziknei HaDor such as Reb Yosef Rosenblum Shli”ta, Reb Chaim Epstein Shli”ta.

The NASI ad reads: “…our Gedolim have called on us to encourage our bochurim to get married a the earliest appropriate time”. i don’t have the text of the actual Kol Koreh which was signed by many gedolim, but IIRC it was similar.

This issue needs to be reframed in order to better deal with it. The root of the problem is being mis-described as boys dating too late. But that is only one (arguable) aspect of what the “shidduch crisis” is.

The “shidduch crisis”, if there’s such a thing, is really just a small part of series of effects that comes from a series of practices in the Yeshivishe community. In a world without these practices, there might be people ending up unmarried, but it wouldn’t be a “shidduch crisis”.

As with any commodity, regulation creates inefficiencies. For starters, in the Shidduch system, 1. All the males are pretty much in one place, or at the very least, in one region; while the women are spread throughout the country 2. The instrumentalities through which men and women can end up together are highly limited; 3. The criteria through which men and women define the subject of their search are limited and poorly chosen both in terms of creating and then defining a meaningful objective; and do not account for anything outside a set of predetermined types.

This creates major problems for women who live anywhere outside the tri-state area. While almost everyone would admit in theory that they would prefer to marry someone with whom they “click” over someone who meets a set of criteria; in the current system, not only to men and women never get a chance to meet each other, but even people who know men, like their friends from yeshiva, their roshei chabura, etc. never meet people who know women, like the principal of a Beis Yaakov in LA. So we’re stuck here with a system that essentially demands representation. But there are lots of people who cannot have meaningful representation – quieter men; people with particular interests and hobbies that the “professional shadchanim” have never heard of; women who have lived in Montreal their whole lives and aren’t particularly beautiful or wealthy.

Focusing on the “age problem”, if there even is one, is not likely to do much except make some people feel good because they got a sign posted on the BMG bulletin board. But in order for something meaningful to change, there must be a systemic change in the makeup of the yeshiva system, in the way that men and women meet, and in the expertise of the people involved in the process.

Yes, Bar Shattya, I did notice the implications. But as I said, some choose to wait, even some time after being emotionally ready.

Also, the freezer forces some additional waiting time, so the kol koreh would suggest going to Lakewood earlier than the current norm.

I assume the kol koreh means when they are actually ready in all respects with no qualifications.

I don’t.

Having read this complex issue, 1 question still eludes me & my spouse badly:- Given that all of these correspondence have us believe that it should be relatively easy for a boy to get married, unlike for a girl, so why is it, that I & my spouse seem to know so many more single men than single women out there? Are we missing something? or are we out of the loop?

@147: You live in Lakewood, where all the men converge (or possibly in the tri-state area where they come home from Thursday to Monday). If you lived outside the tri-state area, where yeshivish, marriageable men only appear for Pesach and the first days of Sukkos, you’d only know of women.

147:

I & my spouse seem to know so many more single men than single women out there? Are we missing something? or are we out of the loop?

Very much out of the loop. How I wish I could contact you! In the same families, the sons are grabbed up and the girls sit and wait. (Yes, you can answer that the boys are obviously marrying girls, so why are there more older single girls? Somehow all girls schools have many more older singles than the guys schools do. Possibly because the girls being chosen are often way younger than the guys, leaving older girls with no one to date- I know youve heard that before. Btw, my acquaintances who have their daughters on Nasi, arent getting dates from them, so thats certainly not the solution).

147, I for one, do not think you & yours are out of the loop. My husband and I also know quite a few older (over 30) singles. I’d say the proportion among our acquaintances is about equal between men & women.

Anyone interested in adding their vote to the discussion?

While there possibly may be a greater number of older single women, there are still a large number of men who have not succeeded in finding their better half as well. I would have to conclude that there is more at play here than simple demographic issues. There is definitely a great need to give the problem some realistic appraisal & study, instead of relying on simplistic solutions that may possibly do more harm than good.

Everything comes from Hashem, and all’s fair in love and war.

Whatever the situation is, you need to manipulate the system in your favor.

I do find that boys are much more diverse than girls religiously. It’s fine with me as long as a Rav is in the picture, but I can see other girls being turned off by someone who is not exactly like their father/brother/seminary teacher.

torah613613torah,

Everything comes from Hashem…

What a horrifyingly callous attitude! Whoever can help and isnt, is guilty in being accomplices in this torture of girls!

We could have had the same attitude of “Everything comes from Hashem” when are brethren were roasting in the gas chambers.

I am NOT trying to compare the two, but girls getting older and older and older, with no hope of marrying in sight, is a very painful and sad Matzav to be in. As many older single girls as there are now, the numbers will very much increase if we dont do something dreastic now in addition to Tefilah.

We clearly need to do more than react with “Everything comes from Hashem”.

This is a test of our sensitivities to our Jewish sisters’ pain. Will we pass? Do we care enough if we pass the test?

torah613613torah, what exactly is the “broken engagement crisis?” It seems to me that broken engagements are vastly better than divorces.

I saw the KK, it’s nice that they sign it. If they dont send bochrim to Israel earlier it doesnt matter

Is the age gap a major factor or are social issues a bigger cause of the problem? How many boys are compromising values and marrying into families that would not be compatible for their sister?

So, Rabbi Perfect you don’t feel that you have an obligation to marry and raise a family. Your mentors feel that you do but you are not prepared to accept their advice at the cost of having to pay the bills. I imagine the could sell you on the concept of marriage if comes along with a large bank account and long term support. Of course you weren’t looking for a poor peasant, but if we can convince you to make money your first priority we will be on our way to solving the crisis.

Yehudayona: I believe pressuring men to marry before they are “ready” would just cause broken engagements when they become terrified of the commitment. Of course, we can’t know without running a well-designed study which is ethically questionable.

Thanks, Curiousity.

Medium Size Shadchan:

Let’s talk about our priorities. We are here to serve Hashem and do our best in whatever situation He puts us in. Right now, I’m single and trying to use my time to help others and develop myself so that I’ll be a good Jewess, wife and mother when I marry IYH. This is not a sad situation.

Note: We say “Im Yirtze Hashem”. IF Hashem wishes. Because it’s up to Him and not up to you or me. Like everyone, I sometimes worry about never getting married. But what’s the point of worrying? Does it make me happier? More productive? A more marriageable person?

Now back to tzaros. ??? comes from ????, or a siege. A person with ???? is unable to break out of their current situation, they feel locked in. But if we realize that we can grow whatever the situation, it turns into ????, a window through which we can see the light.

You say that once you get married, all tzaros are normal. I don’t buy that. All tzaros are painful to those who experience them. It’s quite callous, if I may use that word, to say that one tzarah counts more than another.

It’s certainly very sad if we can’t use our bodies for the purposes Hashem made us female; the sanctification of marriage and building the world through children. Chana, mother of Shmuel HaNavi, davened that she should have children for this reason. Rochel Imenu allowed her sister to marry Yaakov even though she realized this may result in her never being able to marry, since the other option was Esav (talk about 50% never marrying!).

Does it really matter if their tzaros were normal?

B”N, I am now taking a 24 hour moratorium on posting on the YWN CR.

WIY,

The real crisis is a lack of enough quality shadchanim who are looking to get people married as opposed to just making rich flashy shidduchim.

Not at all!

Maybe there are a couple of well known Shadchanim, who are well known for only tending to high society, money, or Yichus or both together, $hidduchim. Outside of those, I think most Shadchanim are looking to make any Shidduch for the high they get when making any Shidduch, and get in the area of $1,000 or somewhat higher per side for the countless hours they spend on Shidduchim, the bulk of which go nowhere.

In general though, Shadchanim find it easier to work with, and have a higher success rate with low lying fruit- young, still flexible and not yet set in their ways and stubborn, relatively desirable singles, who the Shadchanim see as those (both parent and child) really wanting to get married, based on how many the singles decline and accept and how long the list of specs they require is.

While he is learning, give him instruction in a profession for two hours a day. It will not take away from his learning

Of course it will take away from his learning.

DY: There is a benefit for one’s hasmada and limud Torah by going to Eretz Yisroel. How do you justify encouraging losing this tremendous benefit?

As DY & always on thyme both point out, a bochur who wants to learn full time (as many do) has significant incentives to marry later, both to have less time that he may need to support (with no hope of a standard parnassah) AND to hold out for the possibility of “Life Support” from a rich Shver.

The “Kol Koreh” does not change that, or change any of the reasons behind it. I see this one being ignored, as it is not in the best interests of the bochrim (both materially & spiritually) on whom the onus is to change.

WIY,

See Rash”i Kidushin 29b s.v. “l’hu” (five lines from the botom).