October 31, 2014 4:27 am at 4:27 am #614106BMBochur777Participant
I’ll preface by admitting that more details are necessary to properly evaluate this situation but I’d appreciate if attempts were made to answer this as is:
I’m going out in the early stages with a great girl who I have found incredibly unique and positive maylos across many ends of the spectrum. There is an issue however, of Tznius. This is not something I will compromise on but was wondering whether or not there is a method to solve this issue. What’s the best way to bring this up (now/later, by me/by some else)? Additionally, obviously every case is different but can I expect that this issue will be dealt with once and if the relationship progresses further I won’t have to worry about this ever again.
Thank you for your thoughts.October 31, 2014 4:52 am at 4:52 am #1039742
@Bmbochur maybe trying saying a story how tznies helped a woman so she’ll get the hint gut whatever you do don’t be to blunt or she’ll get offendedOctober 31, 2014 10:22 am at 10:22 am #1039743ChortkovParticipant
I am afraid I am hopelessly inexperienced when it comes to these issues, but I would think it both inappropriate and awkward for you to tell her, especially since you are in the early stages of the relationship.
Do you know if the problems are general problems? Does she always dress like that? Or is it just when she’s dating and hoping to impress? It makes a big difference.
If you can get a mentor of hers to tell her (rabbi, rebitzen, <probably not parents>) not ??? you, it would be the best.October 31, 2014 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1039744SpiceofLifeMember
What’s meant by tznius issue?
As a rule, they say, don’t marry someone relying on them changing.
One can marry someone if one can accept how they are right now, & hoping that they’ll change. But one has to keep in mind that they might not change, & be okay with that possibility.
Some things might seem like a tznius issue, & are actually not, more just a different norm in the place they live.
Definitely do NOT do what viyoel moishe recommended!!! He doesn’t know what he’s talking about (sorry to sound so harsh, but needs to be said). Whatever the average bachur would do, would be blunt. It’s not your place to do that. Even once married, this is a very sensitive area. When dating, nothing to talk about!!!
Hatzlocha rabbo.October 31, 2014 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1039745
This is a much more loaded issue than a bachur
might think. It can definitely not come from you at this stage.October 31, 2014 11:36 am at 11:36 am #1039746lamud vov tzadikParticipant
I think this is a very complex issue. I think the best thing would be if you go to speak to someone you trust or someone who knows these issues and ask them how to proceed.October 31, 2014 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1039747oomisParticipant
I think you should first be VERY VERY sure that your concept of tznius is halachically accurate. There is a difference betwen her wearing a skirt that covers her knees even when sitting, but is on the short side versus wearing a skirt above her knees. There is a difference between her wearing bright colors, rather than black, brown, and beige, versus someone who wears a tight red dressd. Is her way of dressing the issue or her behavior? Those are very different things to consider.
As you have not really expressed what your tznius objection is about, it’s hard to understand the problem. But no matter WHAT it is (and again, be very sure that it really IS a tznius problem, and not just your own perception that is a problem), then in my opinion you should speak to the shadchan who set you up, if any, or to her rebbetzin (or another female with whom she is close and with whom you would feel comfortable), and ask her to speak to her about what’s bothering you. You may find that this other person thinks your issue is not based on any halachic foundation, and will help you to see that, or you may find that she is able to get your point across to the young lady without embarrassing you.October 31, 2014 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1039748
As I’m not in the parsheh yet I was just giving my suggestion however I wouldn’t recommend relying on me or anyone else in the cr try asking a ruvOctober 31, 2014 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1039749
Spice of life I was just giving my suggestion no need to be rudeOctober 31, 2014 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #1039750
She or he wasnt rudeOctober 31, 2014 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1039751
@ivory no need for you to get involved in this it’s between me and spice of lifeOctober 31, 2014 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #1039752
Hahahaha! The point of the coffee room is to get involved! As they say , if you can’t take the heat….get out if the coffeeroom!October 31, 2014 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1039753
@ivory if you would like to get involved In the conversation ok no problem however if I have a argument with someone no one asked you to get involved you should also be careful who you insult because you never know who they areOctober 31, 2014 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1039754
Vayoel Moshe, you are one controversial username!October 31, 2014 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1039755hashtagposterMember
#That’s what Shadchanim are for…
Tell her to tell the girl that that’s one area you are having an issue with.
I feel that tznius is something that should not be compromised on if you want to build a true bayis ne’eman.
If she’s the right one, she’ll be happy to change for you.
I know that I struggle with one specific area, and whoever my chassan is, if he is Makpid on it, (which part of me wants, and part doesn’t) I will definitely move away from that particular issue.October 31, 2014 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1039756
@lekatain girl exactly but I got tired of arguing in real life so I argue here 😉October 31, 2014 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1039757
Also you realize this whole thread is no longer about the original question but about me fighting with ivoryOctober 31, 2014 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1039758
My goodness. Now instead of being annoyed at you, I feel bad for you. Instead of arguing with everyone, don’t you want to have real true relationships?
I would suggest therapy, or social skills training of some sort, but I know that you won’t take my advice, so I’ll just leave it at that.October 31, 2014 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1039759
Omg! Who’s fighting? If you want to have a private conversation this is not the venue for it……October 31, 2014 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1039760
I enjoy a good argument and you don’t have to take everything I say literally and what do you call a real true relationship ?October 31, 2014 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1039761
I enjoy a good argument and you don’t have to take everything I say literally and what do you call a real true relationship ?October 31, 2014 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1039762
I know not to take everything you say literally, but it is plausible that you have a tendency to argue with everyone you meet in 3D life, being that since your username was created, you’ve managed to get a significant number of people annoyed.
How would I define a real, true relationship? I dunno… That’s a hard question for me to answer offhand.
I’m just going out on a limb here, and saying that if you always argue with people, and say illogical and untrue things just to rile them up, no one would WANT to have a real, true relationship with you. I’m sorry if that hurts you, but it’s reality.October 31, 2014 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #1039764
I know how to be quiet if I need to for example
By Dov hikind last nightOctober 31, 2014 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1039765
@lekaitin girl @ ivory if you want one of you could make a seperate thread regarding me because we really hijacked bmbochurs thread instead of hearing solutions he hears this conversationOctober 31, 2014 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1039766Menachem MelamedParticipant
Please do not take the issue lightly, and do not assume that you will change her. Do speak to 1 or 2 wise people to ascertain if it really is a tznius issue and what it shows about her yiras shamayim. If the answers satisfy you ask advice if the shadchan (if she is female) or a different female should bring the issue up now. It is unfair and unwise to marry someone with the intent to change them.October 31, 2014 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1039767oyyoyyoyParticipant
oh man viyoel moishe you really know how to make chassidim look bad.October 31, 2014 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1039768October 31, 2014 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1039769
@oyoyoy how exactly?October 31, 2014 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1039770oyyoyyoyParticipant
WE didnt start the fireOctober 31, 2014 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1039771
I have zero or less interest in arguing with youOctober 31, 2014 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1039773
Oh look who woke upOctober 31, 2014 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1039774
I think you need a time out, viyoelee dear. Grow up!
Ivory, let’s not feed the trolls.October 31, 2014 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1039775
For some reason only the women can’t stand me in the cr the guys are neutral weirdOctober 31, 2014 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1039776
You planning on getting married someday? Cuz wives tend to be female.
Please don’t tell me you’re already married.October 31, 2014 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1039777
The sad part is he’s not trollingOctober 31, 2014 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #1039778
Are you ? A shidduch? Lol jk never in a million years 😉October 31, 2014 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #1039780Patur Aval AssurParticipant
Vayoel Moshe showed up for about two days and then disappeared and then Viyoel Moishe showed up. Any connection?
Thanks, didn’t notice on my small phone screen-29October 31, 2014 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1039781
@lekatin girl @ivory I’m going to fight hate with love git shabes to you and both of your familiesNovember 1, 2014 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1039782SpiceofLifeMember
To viyoel moishe, sorry if you took offense. You actually said yourself the same as me:
“As I’m not in the parsheh yet I was just giving my suggestion however I wouldn’t recommend relying on me”
Maybe when you hear it from someone else it sounds different than when you yourself say it.
Usually I make more effort to be polite, but here too much was at stake. If I would have just told BMbochur777 not to follow your advice, he may have listened & may have not. So I felt a need to stress that you don’t have the foggiest about the subject.
About telling Ivory to stay out of it, it doesn’t work like that in the CR. This is a forum for people to give their opinions. Read over some of the older threads & you’ll see that.
About your fighting hate with love, don’t you think you’re being rather dramatic. The concept is good, but no-one here is hating you. You need to chill abit.
Gutt voch to you & e/o in the CR.November 2, 2014 1:15 am at 1:15 am #1039784
It’s impossible to know in advanceNovember 2, 2014 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1039785BMBochur777Participant
Thanks so much for your comments so far. Is this the type of thing that if a Rebbitzin speaks to her once during the dating process, that she will listen to in the long term? Is this an issue that will keep coming up and affect Shalom Bayis?November 2, 2014 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1039786
I don’t know why my responses go before the question. If you have someone who can talk to her and then see how she takes it. If she’s receptive and agrees to correct whatever it is that’s bothering you. Also you have to know what her feelings are about it to see if it will be an ongoing issue.November 2, 2014 1:44 am at 1:44 am #1039787hashtagposterMember
#It really depends on the girl and the situation. And on how much it bothers you… Will it affect the kedusha level of your home?
You are in a tough situation..
Find someone you trust…
Ask a rebbi of yours or ask a shaila
And may you be zoche to build a bayis ne’eman really soon!November 2, 2014 3:06 am at 3:06 am #1039788
I agree with #poster. This issue is important enough to require Daas Torah. Speak to one of your rebbeim about it!November 2, 2014 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1039789mft23Member
I can really appreciate this question, as I went through an almost identical situation when I was dating. I was dating a girl who I found incredible in many ways, but I noticed over time that her skirts were sometimes a tad short (not very short skirts, but often I would see her knees briefly while she was sitting, etc.) I am a serious Yeshiva guy with very strong hashkofos, and to be honest, it really bothered me. I kept pushing off the issue in my head as I got to know her better. I’m NOT recommending that you do this, but at a certain point when we getting pretty serious (date #10), during a serious conversation, I mentioned to her that there was something I needed to talk to her about that was bothering me. I want to keep this post short, so I won’t go into great detail, but I said it in an EXTREMELY sensitive way. She starting crying and told me that this was an issue that she has been struggling with for a while, but it doesn’t represent who she is. I accepted that answer, but still was unsure what it meant for me. I called my Rebbe who I am very close with and told him the whole story. His response was, “are you crazy? This girl is a diamond! For her to admit to it being a struggle, and start crying about it shows how special she really is. So she struggles with it – we ALL have struggles! Everything else about her is great, right?” And it was…
P.S. We are very happily married for a few years now. She’s a fantastic girl and I respect her tremendously. The same issue does still come up once in a while, and it still bothers me. But we work it through like any healthy married couple work through their “stuff”.
I’m not giving you advice, as I don’t know you or your situation. (I am a Marriage and Family Therapist, and I know too many situations where people got messed up from getting terrible advice that was not well suited for them…) However, I just wanted to share that perspective. Take from it what you’d like.
Hatzlacha!November 2, 2014 4:10 am at 4:10 am #1039790JosephParticipant
Wow, totally irrelevant to your comment (which I thought was great btw) but you’re a Marriage and Family Therapist at 23 yo?November 2, 2014 4:32 am at 4:32 am #1039791mft23Member
I’m not 23…
And thanks for the compliment 🙂November 2, 2014 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1039792writersoulParticipant
As a girl, I’ll say:
Do not expect her to change after a quick talking to. Let’s say a girl was dating a guy and she was annoyed/worried because he seemed to be slacking off in going to mincha. (The exact thing isn’t important, just that there’s something he does that she doesn’t like/believe is correct.) Should she assume that you will hear a nice shmuess from your rebbi and immediately change? Same in this case. No change should be made for anyone but oneself or it will never stick and will never give real satisfaction. Imagine (assuming, for the moment, that the problem is that her skirts are too short, just ledugma) that you somehow get across to her (already difficult to do without potentially being very offensive and judgmental but definitely possible) that the skirts are an issue that is holding you back in the relationship. She really wants this to happen, she thinks you’re a great guy, so she says yes, I’ll change. There’s a sale on tea-length dresses and calf-length skirts and she immediately buys out the store. If she is ONLY changing so that you’ll move from date four to date five, and then eventually to proposal and wedding, then what happens in a year (if that long) when the whole glow wears off, there are bumps in the road, and she thinks to herself, this is the guy I changed for? This change will be entirely tied up in externals and if the externals seem no longer quite as worth it, only resentment can come. Or, even if you are idyllically and peacefully married for many years, she will not feel that the new longer skirts are something that she wants to wear, something that she chose because it was intrinsically important to her- they will be something that was placed on her as a burden and from there, resentment can build up as well. Unless she can summon up real desire to change that has NO connection with the guy she’s dating, no change will last with good effects.
It is very possible (though only after you know each other quite well, as in mft23’s case) that you can broach this topic in a way that will be well-received. It will be difficult, though, and even afterward, you can’t rely on a bandaid solution to erase the issue from existence.
Good luck!November 2, 2014 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1039793oomisParticipant
writersoul +1November 2, 2014 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1039794🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
writersoul – With all due respect, I think that’s a great answer but I really don’t think it should apply here. We are talking about halacha. Everything you said could be 100% true for preferences and natural tendencies, but I don’t think you can say that about something halachically dictated. If a girl is wearing skirts that are not halachically appropriate, the appropriate “wake up call” may be just what she needs. I agree that it should not be a casual date conversation but I would seriously worry about a girl who thinks of this as a “favor” or “accomodation”
For example, I live on meat, my husband doesn’t like it. When we got married I was all “into” making all the foods he likes and leaving my likes aside. Eventually (15 years later) I realized that it would not be the end of the world to make what I like and let him eat something else, or vice versa.
Also, he listened to the radio but I didn’t. We decided we would not have the radio playing in the house when I’m around, and I know that it has been hard for him sometimes even though he complies. On the other hand, when we got married I hadn’t gone to a movie in years. He asked, (as only a pure hearted BT can) what is the point of not watching movies in the theater but still renting the ones you want for the VCR. I knew he was right halachically, it wasn’t just a preference of his, and it was the push I needed to move forward. I said, “You are right. It is just another one of those things that ‘everyone does'”. Years and years have gone by and if I ever miss renting or watching movies it wouldn’t occur to me to “blame” him. He was the impetus for growth. Not only that, but I CREDIT him for all the movies I have NOT seen and need to understand that what we do in regards to our spiritual growth is for OUR benefit and those who bring us there should be blessed. So many times in marriage we push and pull each other, too many singles are looking for someone who is always on the same page.
How the above poster should handle this is a different issue, I just felt compelled to comment on your presentation of tznius K’Halacha as style change.
I would also feel concerned about marrying a girl who only sees improving on her tznius as an accommodation to move from date to date. Unlike the wife of mtf23, a girl like that does not sound like someone with the level of sensitivity toward the mitzvah that this boy is looking for.
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