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Hi,
I read somewhere recently that one of the dating rules among the yeshivish is that the girl should not call the boy by his first name. I was just curious – can anyone tell me if this is true? If she can’t call him by his name, what does she call him – Reb Yid? Hey you? Mr. Cohen (or whatever his last name is)? I’m really not making a judgment here, I just want to know if this is true.
where did you read that?
so can he call her by her first name? it should go both ways!
The affection that can be inherent in calling someone by their first-name is powerfully demonstrated in a testimony of a talmod of the Maharil (Rabbeinu Yaakov Halevi zt’l), on whom most of Minhug Ashkenaz is based. At the end of the Sefer Maharil there is a section called Likutim. The first item in this section reads “Whenever the Maharil mentioned his wife to others he would not refer to her by name.” Apparently, the Maharil refrained from mentioning his wife by name because, in his great sensitivity for tznius and kedusha, he felt that if he spoke of her by name he would be displaying part of his affection for her, and it was unfitting. This underscores the endearment that can result from using a first-name basis.
that may be true for after marriage but i have heard that shidduchim have broken up because one or the other was not refering to his/her date by their first name
Coming from the litvish circles, I have never heard this one before.
mepal- same here…
The OP said “yeshivish”, not litvish. 😛
Joseph, the rules of how one refers to his wife after marriage are NOT the same as a date, when one is trying to create a kesher. I refer to my wife to others as “my wife” but you can bet I didn’t call her “hey you” while dating. Gets a little awkward when speaking to my father-in law and I automatically say “my wife”…
mamashtakah – can you tell us where we can get a copy of these rules? I’m very curious….. As far as I know, there’s no rulebook & if there is one out there- I’d love to see it!
I know I wouldn’t call a guy by his first name for the first date, more though because I’m still uncomfortable. I don’t know though that its a “rule”. It depends what your circles are and where you come from.
funnybunny- agreed!
I think it comes from the fact that you are dating this person to check “compatibility” and to see if this will be your future spouse.
But as long as it’s not- why become too comfortable?
but once again, in different circles, things work differently, quite obviously!
(and you know what?! That’s the beauty of Klal Yisroel. We’re all shooting for the same goal; you can do it in your style, and that’s just fine! We’re so not judgmental!)
Joseph- litvish is an area, yeshivish is a mindset. Many people who refer to themselves as from an area would be considered yeshivish as well. Now, what does yeshivish mean????(define in 50 words or less…)
Oh please. Guys (and girls) remember that in the yeshivish circles, the boy and girl don’t really know anything about each other (which is a separate thread in and of itself) before they go out, and most girls didn’t have any contact with older boys when they themselves were older. From what I hear, the girl just doesn’t call the boy anything. You don’t have to call him by name for the first few dates. Once it gets a little more serious maybe. But for the first few dates, I definitely agree that it is a little inappropriate to be on “first-name basis”.
LOL it’s pretty funny because since I don’t call a boy by his name on dates I honestly forget their names sometimes… haha would be pretty bad if they turned around and said, “What’s my name?” It would be like “ummm” lol.
The truth is the only reason I don’t say their names is because my friend once told me that’s something you just don’t do… hmmm. mamashtaka- kol hakavod for not being a sheep and questioning the “rules” and the way people do things… but then again, I totally hear the points of the answers given… like the affection thing.
I guess it’s okay to say the boy’s name if it’s necessary but not to, like, insert in every other sentence. (“So Moshe, what’s your favorite color?” “Really, Moshe?” lol)
I used to look up the girl’s name before dating. That didn’t stop me from forgetting the girl’s name during dates, or forgetting her family story (how many siblings etc) from one date to the next. I did my best but when each girl starts blending into the next it kind of gets difficult…
I was also told that you dont call a boy by his name until is very serious because taht helps build a kesher and is somewhat affectionate. I did not call my husband by his name till after we were engaged and he only called me by my name once because i was going to wash and he needed to tell me something. Otherwise i never really had to call him anything- cuz i never needed to catch his attention or anything. but if i had needed to i guess prob after the 3rd date.
Coming from the litvish circles I definately have heard this. As people above posted saying someone’s name makes an instant kesher and that’s not the purpose of a shidduch date. When a couple is sitting in let’s say a private quiet hotel lounge and the guy addresses the girl by her name, it is a undeniable fact of nature that she will feel a changed attraction for the guy she’s dating. Only once a couple is sure that they found their bashert should first names be used. Otherwise on a date, the guy and girl are completely focused on eachother so there is no reason to say anything like “hey you” to catch their attention.
I guess it depends on what side of the spectrum you’re on.
I guess it depends on ur circles, I wouldnt have called a date by his first name, unless i was asking him who he is named after (if conversation got really stuck). But then again, many CR members have had very different dating experiences than I had.
“As people above posted saying someone’s name makes an instant kesher and that’s not the purpose of a shidduch date”
No???? I thought the purpose of dating WAS to make a kesher, instant or otherwise. Shows you how foolish I am. Calling someone by name is a friendly thing to do, and the whole purpose of the date is to see if one feels sufficiently comfortable with the other person to pursue a SECOND date.
Holding hands is also a friendly thing to do, and makes a kesher.
A person’s own name is, to him or her, the sweetest sound in any language.
Joseph- I dont want you to call your neighbors, friends, students, co-workers, secretary ect by their first name-ok?
There is a difference, Mr. _______(fill in your last name here).
joseph, you know we are all going to tell you now, that’s not the same thing. truth is i really never heard of that rule not to use first names but i’m curious to ask the younger generation in our family what they did.
Joe: are you recommending holding hands on a date????
hss – Good advice (when it is necessary to speak to someone of the opposite gender.) Yasher Koach
PM: Au contraire. I was making the point that being friendly and making a kesher doesn’t make something necessarily right.
Joseph- I was referring to you…. Please dont call me HSS anymore. I would now like to be refered to (specially by Joseph) with a proper surname before it.
Okay Mrs. Seichel.
I appreciate it Mr. Joseph. We dont want to be too friendly here in the anonymous CR where we wont know someone if we bumped into each other on the street (figure of speech- not advice).
yossi z. said “that may be true for after marriage but i have heard that shidduchim have broken up because one or the other was not refering to his/her date by their first name”
Thats ridiculous!!! I find that hard to believe, if anything one wouly the
opposite that being called by their 1st name on a 1st date would freak a girl out
as the guy is being too Heimish.
& for all the older folks out there its true we, in our circles yeshivish/heimish
do not call a girl by her first name unless it is getting serious, this is for tznius purposes.
whew!
this one turned funny!
😉
B-h Welcome back!
After all this, all I can say is that I’m sure that I’m going to…. Not only did I call my future her first name when we first met, but I continue to do so to this day.
EDITED
The Wolf
Joseph LOL!!!!!
Oomis, first and second dates are just checking if they’re compatible!! Once there a “kesher” and some bonding it’s much harder for either party to step back and ask themselves if that person is really for them.
I guess they shouldn’t look at each other either until the Lechaim?
Of course not! Looking is a form of kesher as well.
You know what the title of this thread should be? Ah kranke freikt min, ah gezinte gebt min 😉
explanation please? (ames, that was for you ;))
Any good yiddish expression is killed when translated- but the closest I can think of is: “a stupid question gets a stupid answer” (in this case that is how it was used- but it can be used in a totally different context/meaning…)
oh, ok. thanks for explaining anyways.
mepal-it actually means- “To a sick person you offer, to a well person you give.” And I’ve only heard it used in the context of being offered/given food.
This is a 5th shulchan aruch question. It depends on the guy and the girl, the date, and where the shidduch is holding. Ask your LOR. There can be no hard and fast rules.
thanks mepal, i’m trying to avoid excessive ywn CR use during Elul.
but a little can’t hurt.
lol, smart move 😉
During a loooong drive back after a date I mentally went through every date with every girl and created statistics like how many dates each one lasted and who ended it…
One thing I found interesting was that the three girls that I had dated the longest each asked what my birthday was on the first date (and then let me know when theirs is, I never asked). I thought afterwards that discussing each other’s birthdays on a first date creates an artificial kesher and should probably not be done.
ames, Dr. Pepper didn’t seem to be kidding.
Whats funny is his statistics!
Can someone explain some of the terms being thrown around?
“Litvishe”
“Yeshivishe”
“Chassidishe”
Does this mean that “litvishe” and “yeshivishe” are mutually exusive? What about “chassidishe” and “yeshivishe” (chassidim dont learn in yeshiva?)? Is it impossible to be “litvishe” and “chasidish” (there were no chassidim in lita?). What about those of hungarian descent who are not chasidishe, they cant we “litvishe”, can they be yeshivishe? Is there another moniker for these people?
Are these definitions found in the rule book on dating?
Please help.
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