Dating/marriage question, Am I realistic…?

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  • #607655
    WIY
    Member

    I consider myself to be a very ruchniyusdik frum guy and I am very into my Judaism. I learn a few hours a day minimum and I try to really be involved in my Yiddishkiet and not just go through the motions. Anyways to make a long story short, is it right to expect of my wife to attend or watch a shiur online at least once a week and to try and read from Hashkafa books on a regular basis preferably daily or at least a few times a week for a considerable amount of time, its not really the time that matters but that she covers ground in these books and tries to live by it?

    Thanks

    #917462
    greatest
    Member

    Very reasonable expectation.

    #917463
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    1. If you are asking if it is realistic that you will find someone who does that while she is single–yes.

    2. If you are asking whether it is realistic that she will continue to do that while you are married–less likely, but maybe.

    3. If you are asking whether you will be able to tell if she will continue–probably not.

    4. If you are asking whether you will have a happy marriage if you pressure her to do these things–absolutely not.

    5. If you are asking whether it is something normal to want–I’m not sure. I’d like to hear more about why you want it. Is it so that you can discuss these things with her, or so that you will make sure she always feels similar to how you do, or I don’t know why.

    #917464
    haifagirl
    Participant

    Your question is impossible to answer without more information.

    If she is sitting around all day doing nothing, than you are not being unrealistic. However, if she is taking care of children, cooking, cleaning, running errands, etc., then it’s possible you are being quite unrealistic.

    #917465
    shmendrick
    Member

    WIY, a woman’s chiyuv of learning Torah differs greatly than a man’s. Her chiyuv is to know the halochas of the mitzvos in which she is obligated. Therefore her learning is part and parcel of doing her “mitzvos”, and not Torah for the sake of learning itself.

    However, she still does have a part of real Torah learning by encouraging her husband and sons to study Torah. That is her true chelek b’Torah!

    Therefore, you cannot draw a parallel that since you learn (only) a few hours a day, that your wife should also learn at least weekly. That is comparing apples to oranges.

    Finally, after 120 years you will be asked if YOU were koveh itim b’Torah. You will NOT be asked if you made sure that your wife is koveh itim!

    My Rebbitzen learns every day and it is geshmak to speak in learning with her, but sometimes I think she would get more s’char if she spent the time encouraging my learning with a special sandwich for lunch or a freshly made supper. I personally do not need these “encouragements” but I think she would get more of a Gan Eden. I wish I could set up my wife with you wife for a chavrusa-shaft. My wife does daf yomi.

    Each one of us has an eizer k’negdo. It is our brocha and our nisoyon.

    #917466
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    popa +1

    #917467
    WIY
    Member

    Popa

    “5. If you are asking whether it is something normal to want–I’m not sure. I’d like to hear more about why you want it. Is it so that you can discuss these things with her, or so that you will make sure she always feels similar to how you do, or I don’t know why.”

    My reason is because I want a certain type of house and I think that if a girl doesn’t keep learning, like a man her hashkafos and “shtarkeit” will atrophy. Both spouses need to be growing and even if a wife has work and kids to take care of, if she isnt spending significant time on her ruchniyus and working on her self she will go down hill. Women are no different from men in this regard that we need constant chizuk and we need to keep our hashkafos in check.

    #917468
    nostalgia
    Member

    Are you looking for a chavrusah or are you looking for someone who is machshiv torah? It’s more important to marry a girl that will be thrilled that you’re learning and not disturb you because the baby is crying or because she wants to go to the mall with you!

    I forgot which gadol it was that was asked to speak at BJJ. He got up and said that he brought his rebbitzen, because she can teach the girls how to bake a cake. That’s what a frum bais yaakov girl has to know!!

    Hatzlacha rabba!

    #917469
    rc
    Participant

    Popa +2

    #917470
    SaysMe
    Member

    I’d say it’s fine to want a wife who does now/ wants to continue to attend or watch a shiur online at least once a week and to try and read from Hashkafa books,etc. It’s a type of personality who enjoys attending shiurim and/or readign hashkafa books. If she’d be able to keep it up with 3 kids and a job is something else, so i specify ‘want’, not ‘expect’. Not sure if I 100% agree with your atrophy lines, but definitely the concept and the type of house that’s looking to continue growing upwards, and i agree thats something to say you are looking for.

    #917471

    In terms of religion, there is nothing that is reasonable for you to expect of another person’s individual religious experience and connection.

    Generally, in order to have a happy marriage, your expectations should be limited to expectations from yourself, and you should trust that your wife expects things of herself.

    If you are concerned that your children will be negatively impacted because of a discrepancy between yours and your wife’s observance, I suggest that you take that up with a marriage counselor, or lower your religious level so that it will match your wife’s and protect your innocent children.

    #917472
    yytz
    Participant

    If you find someone who already does these things, perhaps she will continue. If not, you can’t force her or pressure her (as Popa says). But you could subtly encourage her by giving her time to go to do the learning or suggestions in case she is interested, including by talking with her about things you’re learning or interested in learning.

    #917473
    trak443
    Participant

    1 Telling your wife not only what you expect, but also demanding HOW she must accomplish it, is a dictatorship, not a partnership.

    2. You can never tell anyone HOW to go about reaching a certain level in life. Just because something inspires you, doesn’t mean it will work for her. Shiurim may inspire you, but doing chessed may inspire her more. If you’re really concerned, maybe go thru a hashkafa sefer together at the Fri nite meal…….

    #917474
    singleme
    Member

    because of all the opportunities and shuirim available specifically for ladies…anyone who wants can take advantage of them…most girls who went to seminary/and HS are encouraged to continue learning afterwards…It will come across if a girl is interasted in growing and learning…with regards to once someone’s married with a family it’s much harder to get out and go unless they have a babysitter–but a book/sefer/online shiur is a great alternative…

    #917475
    Nechomah
    Participant

    I asked one of my teachers how to stay involved after marriage. She told me that from the time she got married, she and her husband would learn something when/after they were eating their dinner together. You can start out that way, find out if it is something the girl you’re dating is interested in doing. Then keep it up. Find something she likes. My husband wanted to learn Mishnah Breurah, and it was very difficult. Our learning styles didn’t always match for us to be “chavrusas”, but hashkafa is different.

    What about the Shabbatons that are put on periodically? I think it is terrific to get away and do something like that. If you can leave (future) children with parents or find out if they have suitable children programs arranged, then it is great for a getaway with a ruchniusdik plus.

    Don’t always expect her to have her nose in a book. She definitely won’t have time for that after she gets married and is running a house. Also, the type of shiurim she will want to attend will be different – chinuch bonim classes can be a series and that can encourage her to be involved in a long term basis with something that is relevant to her everyday life and will probably have a big impact on how your house is run.

    Definitely make it clear during dating that you want a house focused on ruchnius and that it’s not just a dream, but a reality you want to create. Does this girl think she can be a partner in that? What can she contribute, how does she feel about that?

    Also, Popa +1 – really great advice coming from your corner the last few days. Keep ’em coming!

    #917476
    loca
    Member

    You are being VERY realistic. Yay!!

    #917477
    Das
    Member

    While I enjoy an occasional shiur, I was never one to go to weekly shiurim etc, (some girls are into it, some are not.) and now that I’m married I really don’t have that much time to listen to shiurim in general – definitely not weekly. However, by Shabbos meals, and every so often my husband will tell over something he learned that he thinks I would enjoy or would inspire me. Plus we try to learn something every night during supper. Why don’t you something like that? It can certainly keep up the level of hashkafa you want. Even if she agrees to go to shiurim, at some point life might get too hectic, and she may just stop going altogether.

    #917478
    uneeq
    Member

    WIY: I think that you are being realistic, though personally I disagree with the amount of time she would have to devote. I think a shiur a week would be sufficient. Though if things get hectic with kids and errands, even once a month would be fine for me.

    #917479
    oomis
    Participant

    Popa – – GREAT post, really excellent!

    While it is wonderful that a woman wants to learn, whether it is a shiur, or hashkafic writings, etc. Hashem potured her from that because her job of raising the next generation of frum Yidden, far outweighs the learning she might be doing. Women have a mitzvah to TEACH their children Torah, by living it, by bringing them up to be machshiv it. Everything they do to build a bayis ne’eman b’Yisroel, is a reflection of that which is found in those shiurim.

    Whatever you do, DON’T make your wife feel like she is being coerced. If she is doing the job that she is supposed to be doing, then she will already be fulfilling Ratzon Hashem properly. If she as an added bonus also enjoys going to shiurim, that is icing on the cake, but the cake is still pretty tasty, even without the icing.

    #917480
    hudi
    Participant

    Popa: I like your serious posts 😉

    WIY: I think it’s a nice thing to look for, but not completely realistic. Going to a shiur once a week is more realistic, but can’t expect this after marriage. I don’t know any girls who consistently read hashkafa books (as regularly as guys learn). I know girls (myself included) who read such books and try to live by them, but it’s more of a spontaneous read than disciplined and regular study.

    #917481
    MDG
    Participant

    PBA said, “If you are asking whether it is realistic that she will continue to do that while you are married–less likely, but maybe.”

    It’s even less likely after children.

    PBA +5.

    #917482
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Let’s make another point now. I think the more frequent problem is a woman marries a guy thinking that he is going to learn, and he doesn’t.

    Maybe she thought he was going to learn in kollel, but he wants to work. Maybe she thought he would work and have a 2 hour seder every night, but he only does daf yomi. Maybe she thought he would do daf yomi and he does nothing.

    I’m not telling you what to want and what to not want, and if this is so important to you, then maybe get divorced (I think that’s crazy). But, if you harass your husband about it, or stop respecting him because of it, you are going to ruin your marriage. So my advice really is to learn to respect him anyway.

    #917483

    WIY: I don’t know if it’s nogeiah but I have someone in mind. If one of the mods e-mails me I can pass along some information if you want. I’m not a shadchan, it just struck me as a possibility from the impression I have of you.

    #917484
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    WIY, I completely agree with you, and never understood how a girl can expect to stay the same frum without constant learning.

    #917485
    oomis
    Participant

    Torah613…

    A frum girl who is raising her family in a Torah-steeped home is ALREADY constantly learning. You guys do not have the monopoly on learning. You just learn in a different venue. If Hashem thought that women needed to be going to constant shiurim, it would have been added to their other mitzvos. Women’s mitzvos involve DOING much more than learning, but the learning comes from within the doing.

    #917486
    commonsense
    Participant

    Thanx Oomis. You said it much better than me.

    #917487
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Oomis, I’m a girl. (Why does everyone think I’m a boy? I thought the football topic would put that to rest once and for all.)

    We still need to learn our Halachos, and hopefully Parsha to tell our kids. Personally, I don’t intend to rely on the school system to educate my children; learning doesn’t belong in schools exclusively.

    And no one can remember all the necessary Halachos for day to day life from a couple of High School classes.

    As my father is fond of reminding me, some women in Europe knew Chayei Adam by heart.

    #917488
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why does everyone think I’m a boy? I thought the football topic would put that to rest once and for all.

    What does that make me?

    #917489
    WIY
    Member

    Popa

    I honestly think you are a guy or maybe a husband and wife or even a few different people sharing one account. I don’t buy it for one second that your account is used by only one person and that person is a girl.

    #917490
    WIY
    Member

    Oomis

    With all due respect I believe you are from a very different generation than the young girls today. We live in a culture and society that constantly throws nisyonos our way and the yetzer hora is confusing so many people. The only way to stay strong is to constantly infuse yourself with Torah. I hate to say this but I have watched the women in my own family and I see that over the years they got worse not better. Halachos become forgotten and traditions become rote and just things that need to be done instead of being exciting and vibrant. I don’t think girls need to learn anywhere near as much as men but I do think they should regularly read hashkafic works or attend listen to or watch a shiur if their yiddishkiet is important to them and they want to grow.

    You know, I want to throw something out there. Everyone gives lip service to “growing in marriage” and all that fluff but I think most people are full of it and from looking around it seems like most girls usually dont grow much as a person after they leave seminary and most guys dont grow much after they leave yeshiva unless they are serious learners and attend a serious kollel. Growing in Yiddishkiet means working on your relationship with Hashem and if thats not happening then you arent growing even if you are going through the motions of marriage and bringing up kids if it isnt focused and directed as avodas Hashem then you are just a mom and dad who gave birth to little Jewish kids and you hope that the yeshiva Rebbes and Moras will do a good job.

    Lets be realistic, the ideas we heard in yeshiva or seminary must be reviewed often or else we forget them or they just lose meaning to us. I dont believe any young person today can keep their level without putting in time learning from a book/sefer or via shiurim. Its just wishful thinking. For most people who talk about growth in marriage the growing happens at the waistline and nowhere else.

    Popa

    I honestly think you are a guy or maybe a husband and wife or even a few different people sharing one account. I don’t buy it for one second that your account is used by only one person and that person is a girl.

    #917491
    uneeq
    Member

    Torah613613Torah: Oomis, I’m a girl. (Why does everyone think I’m a boy? I thought the football topic would put that to rest once and for all.)

    They assume you’re a guy because girls don’t have 613 mitzvos.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/are-women-reallyjewish

    Ayen Sham.

    #917492
    Bochashem
    Participant

    my wife’s busy round the clock with our kids and her job! she is exhausted when it comes to the evening.As a girl she listened and went to shiurim, but at the moment she cant! but at the shbs table you say a devar torah?? and you can stam say over something nice you heard or learnt…

    nice idea?

    hatzlocho

    #917493
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Popa

    I honestly think you are a guy or maybe a husband and wife or even a few different people sharing one account. I don’t buy it for one second that your account is used by only one person and that person is a girl.

    Good. Neither do I.

    #917494

    I have met Popa in person and I agree that he is a few different people.

    #917496
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I have met Popa in person and I agree that he is a few different people.

    Interestingly, I think that explains a lot. I guess I am a few different people.

    #917497
    Das
    Member

    WIY – how abt this: You can expect her to go to shiurim, as long as during that time, you’d be doing all the things she would otherwise be doing (taking care of the kids, cleaning, cooking…) This way she’ll have the time to go!

    #917498
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    WIY: Are you talking to me or PBA?

    This made me laugh. I guess being a girl with a modicum of intelligence and the ability to write English and Hebrew correctly is more unbelievable than aliens typing from a spark in the eye of a green-tailed monster.

    #917499
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    WIY,

    You describe yourself as “a very ruchniyusdik frum guy” and say, “I am very into my Judaism”.

    Well, you should be looking for a ruchniyusdik frum girl who is very into her Judaism.

    You should not really care how much time she spends learning, if she fits those qualifications.

    #917500
    WIY
    Member

    DY

    Is it safe to assume that a girl who is into her frumkeit will stay into it after marriage by continuing to learn, go to shiurim or get involved with chessed….?

    #917501
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    WIY,

    Some need it, some don’t.

    #917502
    Mammele
    Participant

    WIY: The question wasn’t directed at me but one contributing factor whether she will continue to learn (assuming she currently is this type) is whether you expect her to be a “supermom” or not. If you want her to work (especially full time) while raising a family and running a “perfect” home it’s not likely she’ll have the time and energy to devote to shiurim etc. without collapsing from the pressure.

    However, don’t be judgmental if she’s not “learning” at any given point as marriage, having kids, a new job etc. are not easy transitions that will need some adjusting to and figuring out how to juggle everything.

    Also you can’t pre-plan life’s curveballs, you may for example have triplets, so don’t forget to be flexible and fair in your expectations. We don’t run the world.

    #917503
    Yamoos7123
    Member

    The best thing to do would be to set an example that she will want to live up to and hopefully with hashems help she will do what you want in response

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