Davening Gemara

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  • #602893

    I was in a beis medrash yesterday and i saw someone singing gemara at a rate of at least a blatt a minute (based on the freqency of turning pages). Lechorah this is bitul Torah for the guy couldve been learning for real – he was wearing white shirt, tztzis out etc; i think someone like that is just doing it to fake everyone out. And the same is true of the classic guy who takes out ten seforim and opens them all up in front of him and shuckeles bakck and forth but doesn’t ever look in the seforim (except maybe the top one).

    #1017033
    Sam2
    Participant

    MT: Maybe he knows that Masechta very, very well and was just doing Chazara? Or maybe he has a photographic memory is and is trying to memorize all of Shas so that he will be able to understand everything perfectly?

    #1017034

    Or maybe it was really a picture Gemorah that he was reading…

    #1017035

    nope. it would take a super-genius to even be remotely shayach to understand the steps of a gemara at that speed, and he was no genius. And those who truly know a mesechta that well are very deliberate in their learning and don’t substitute it for a sidur. Someone who learns 10 blatt a day with the possible exception of R’ Chaim Kanievsky Shlita don’t have any understanding of what they “learned”.

    #1017036
    Patri
    Member

    Reading the Gemora is part of the mitzva of Limid Torah. Even if he reads it without understanding it. Hewould srill need to say the Brochos in the morning before he could lain the gemorah.

    #1017037
    mexipal
    Participant

    find something else to rant about.

    #1017038
    musser zoger
    Participant

    If you were so involved with what he was doing…how come you weren’t learning instead of watching him. Sounds like bitul Torah.

    And certainly you should be dan him l’kaf zechus.

    In fact since he was looking in the sefer and you were watching him, he was probably learning more than you were.

    #1017039
    Sam2
    Participant

    MT: I am far from a genius, yet when I do Chazara I fly through the pages pretty quickly and I think that I get every step the Gemara goes through.

    #1017040

    “Reading the Gemora is part of the mitzva of Limid Torah. Even if he reads it without understanding it. Hewould srill need to say the Brochos in the morning before he could lain the gemorah.”

    This is true for pesukim of Tanach and for mishna. There is no inherent kedusha in words of gemara that saying them in and of itself is aome form of mitzvah or zechus. The point of gemara is to be known and understood – “v’sein bilibeinu binah lehavin ulihaskil. . .” notice no mention of “likrosah”. Tosfos explains that there are two facets to the mitzvah of talmud Torah: 1- knowledge of it, ie information; 2- the toil, of which there is no significant amount in mindless davening of it. Furthermore, the Chafetz Chaim states in Toras Habayis htat if one can learn better qualitatively and does not, he is over on bitul Torah.

    #1017041
    Chacham
    Participant

    i can learn around that speed when chazaring a mesechta i know well. instead of focusing on him not learning maybe learn a bit yourself. and maybe he was just trying to locate a specific gemara

    #1017042
    Patri
    Member

    Mochoh – Are you seriously taainaing that there is no inherent kedusha in the words of the gemorah?!?! Why would you not need to make the Brochos in the morning before “laining” the gemora if you need a Brocho before laining the mishna?

    #1017043

    “i can learn around that speed when chazaring a mesechta i know well.”

    Not true. The best you can do is think through the superficial steps and conclusions. Understanding with any meaningful depth for us who aren’t top 5 Torah geniuses of the generation requires that one spend time to actually think through each step and focus on it even to remember it in a way that actually counts for learning bec simply having a memory of something in the back of yoour mind does not count even for chazarah. You are fakingg yourself out if you think otherwise.

    “instead of focusing on him not learning maybe learn a bit yourself.”

    I spent maybe a minute or two watching him plow through a few page turns when i paused to take a little break.

    “and maybe he was just trying to locate a specific gemara”

    And maybe he was really an isreali spy posing

    #1017044
    Chacham
    Participant

    understanding the maskanos and steps of the gemara is learning and definitely requires birkas hatorah and is for sure counted as chazarah

    #1017045

    “Mochoh – Are you seriously taainaing that there is no inherent kedusha in the words of the gemorah?!?! Why would you not need to make the Brochos in the morning before “laining” the gemora if you need a Brocho before laining the mishna?”

    Here’s what i did say: “There is no inherent kedusha in words of gemara that saying them in and of itself is some form of mitzvah or zechus“. Not that there is no kedusha at all, which is patently absurd. If you want to imbibe kedusha by reading words, read pesukim or Zohar.

    #1017046
    shmoel
    Member

    Why Zohar and Mishna yes inherent kedusha, but Gemorah no inherent kedusha?

    #1017047

    “Why Zohar and Mishna yes inherent kedusha, but Gemorah no inherent kedusha?”

    The Torah is the Holiest entity; Scriptures succeeding it – Nach – are somewhat less holy; Mishna and Zohar are the cutoff line for enough kedusha to make it possible to imbibe from it just by reading the words. Further, acc to you how far does this go? Is reading a pnei yehoshua also considered absorbing kedusha from his words?

    #1017048
    sam4321
    Participant

    Shmoel: I don’t know about kedusha ,but the Shulchan Aruch Harav(2:13) says one is not yotzei limud torah if one doesn’t understand that is only by Torah shebal peh(Magen Avraham says somthing similar).

    #1017049
    yitzchokm
    Participant

    mochoh timcheh

    what’s the point of this topic?

    to tell sam and a sheep “not true” and they don’t know what their talking about? telling sam that he’s not chazaring correctly?

    Is that even a thing? chazaring correctly?

    im confused.

    #1017050
    cheftze
    Member

    ” Mishna and Zohar are the cutoff line for enough kedusha to make it possible to imbibe from it just by reading the words.”

    Says who? Who decided that is the cutoff line?

    #1017051
    Sam2
    Participant

    MT: That’s explicitly wrong. The Poskim say that you put a Gemara on top of a Nach.

    #1017052
    Avi K
    Participant

    This is a big problem. One should learn with his sechel and daven with his regesh, not the opposite. David HaMelech was punished for calling divrei Tora songs (Sota 35a).

    #1017053
    RSRH
    Member

    Years ago I set a goal for myself to learn and review meseches Makkos 101 and times. I never made it to 101 (I think I stopped at about 50). The first time I learned the it, it took about 5 weeks. After that, I reviewed it about 10 times at one week per review (about 3 1/2 blatt a day). Eventually, I got to the point were I could work through the whole mesechta in about 3 hours. It isn’t inconceivable that this guy really was learning, he could have a unique mind that thinks rapidly in this way (nothing to do with raw intelligence necessarily), or he may have learned that gemarah many, many times.

    Be dan l’kaf zechus, and don’t do as he was doing if you know that for you its not real learning.

    #1017054
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “someone singing gemara at a rate of at least a blatt a minute (based on the freqency of turning pages).”

    I too frequently turn g’mara pages very quickly when chazaring and using an Artscroll which only focuses on several lines of g’mara per page. Havei dan l’caf z’chus…

    #1017055
    squeak
    Participant

    “The point of gemara is to be known and understood – “v’sein bilibeinu binah lehavin ulihaskil. . .” notice no mention of “likrosah”.”

    Of all that was said in this thread, I think the above wins the prize for most ignorant statement. Not to mention that it’s nusach sefard.

    #1017056
    musser zoger
    Participant

    MT: That’s explicitly wrong. The Poskim say that you put a Gemara on top of a Nach.

    Sam2 can you please prodide sources for this statement? Thanks!

    #1017057
    sam4321
    Participant

    Mz: Aruch Hashulchan

    #1017058

    maybe this is none of your business and you should be concern with your learning?

    #1017059
    sam4321
    Participant

    Sam2: I am almost sure that most poskim argue on the Aruch Hashulchan YD 283:6.

    #1017060
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Avi, not for that reason, though. He was punished for saying that the Torah was so easy to him, as a song.

    #1017061

    Says who? Who decided that is the cutoff line?

    Look it up in the MA & SAH

    “MT: That’s explicitly wrong. The Poskim say that you put a Gemara on top of a Nach.”

    Which poskim are you quoting exactly? nach should not be under a gemara, however there are those who are <i>mekel</i> in certain situations. (Halachically Speaking brings down a whole bunch of maare mekomos)

    “I too frequently turn g’mara pages very quickly when chazaring and using an Artscroll which only focuses on several lines of g’mara per page. Havei dan l’caf z’chus…”

    1- it wasn’t an artscroll; 2- i was watching himas he progressed down the page, which i knew from his finger moving across every line downward top to bottom and the amount of words being said in between each page turn from blatt to blatt.

    “Of all that was said in this thread, I think the above wins the prize for most ignorant statement. Not to mention that it’s nusach sefard.”

    That is in no way literal. i thoght it was self-understood that one cannot bring a rayah on his own from the wording of a tefillah much less something like this which isn’t even anywhere near sound and airtight. The point was to make a point of that we ask for understanding and knowledge in Torah explicitly and not to be inspired by the mystical essence of the words as far as i know. If someone knows of an explicit tefillah for such i would be glad to know.

    #1017062
    Sam2
    Participant

    Sam4: I think the Sh’arim Metzuyanim B’halacha brings down a list of Poskim that agree with that Aruch Hashulchan, but I don’t have it with me now to check. I thought I saw R’ Ovadiah bring down a list too, but that I’m not positive about. I learned this a very long time ago.

    #1017063

    “Sam2: I am almost sure that most poskim argue on the Aruch Hashulchan YD 283:6.”

    Judaism is not particular to un-orthodox feminist manifetsos

    #1017064
    sam4321
    Participant

    Dont get it,sry

    #1017065
    Sam2
    Participant

    Sam4: I’d guess that he thinks that the Aruch Hashulchan you are quoting quoted the Drishah I referred to earlier. Apparently one of the Gedolei Haposkim is now an “un-orthodox feminist manifesto”. I don’t know how one can continue to respond to someone who thinks like this.

    #1017066

    i was kidding about the feminism angle. . . gosh you guys have no sense of humor or chakirah

    #1017067
    yitzchokm
    Participant

    mochoh timcheh,

    right, I know.

    Gosh it’s funny who you sometimes post a non humorous comment together with a “humorous” one. In the same post.

    Gosh. “we guys” just don’t get it.

    #1017068
    musser zoger
    Participant

    mochoh timcheh,

    You were kidding about the “feminist angle”. How about the “un-orthodox” comment. I’d appreciate you not denigrating a Gadol B’yisroel. You started out this post denigrating a person sitting, learning in bais medrish and then speak badly about the heilige Aruch Hashulchan. I believe you have lost your credibility.

    #1017069

    “Gosh it’s funny who you sometimes post a non humorous comment together with a “humorous” one. In the same post.

    Gosh. “we guys” just don’t get it.”

    Certain things are self-evident that they are simply too absurd to possibly be true bec they are fundementally illogical

    #1017070
    R.T.
    Participant

    Hi mochoh timcheh:

    Having just arrived back from Pesach vacation, I saw this post and to put it mildly, I was severely disappointed that such a thread should exist.

    First of all, may I humbly suggest that you pay attention to your own learning (& davening) and not be so intrusive of other’s derachim.

    Secondly, reading and chanting ANY sefer is quite legitimate in and of itself. My father, shlit”a (& he should be gezunt bis 120 yahrs mit simcha) memorized a number of sugyas in Shas, so that when a shayla was presented to him, he could quote the mekor in those Gemaras instantly.

    True, we have a mesora specifically for Tanach, Mishnayos (Maggid Mishnah) and Zohar/Tikkunei Zohar, but as mentioned earlier, ANY sefer is pleasing to HaShem.

    I am quite certain that there were critics and pessimists who offered the same response (as you did) when Daf Yomi was in its infancy back in the 1920’s — see how it has blossomed today and caught on to include Yerushalmi, Tosefta, etc…

    Again, at this time of Sefirat HaOmer when the talmidim of Rebbi Akiva perished because they were “lo nohagu kavod zeh lazeh”, it behooves us to be a little bit more respectful of everyone, no matter what madgreiga they are in life, no matter what derachim they choose, no matter what minhaghim they practice.

    Respectfully yours, R.T.

    #1017071
    apushatayid
    Participant

    People learn during davening, why shouldn’t they daven while learning.

    #1017072
    apushatayid
    Participant

    On a serious note. In the branch of CC that I learned in, bekius seder was set up in a manner we called “1st time and 2nd time”. We would regularly go through 3-4 blatt during the 1st seder of the week, with the express purpose of knowing nothing more than the translation of all the words and the basic flow of the gemara (question, answer, proof, question etc.) Ever try lihavdil to read and understand a complicated document where you had to stop every few words for a dictionary or thesauraus? The same concept applied here. Perhaps this is what he was doing.

    #1017073

    Hi RT:

    Hi mochoh timcheh:

    Salutations to you as well!

    Having just arrived back from Pesach vacation, I saw this post and to put it mildly, I was severely disappointed that such a thread should exist.

    Again, I quote the Chofetz Chaim of Sainted Memory: One who can learn on a better level qualitatavely and does not is over on bitul Torah. Therefore, i was inspired to write about what i percieved to be a complete lack of learning by someone who by all appearances, and certainly by his fluency and ease with the words of the gemara, looked to have the aility to actually learn with his mind and not merely his mouth. That in theory such a person should exist is not contrary to any known or unknown principle in Torah hashkafa.

    First of all, may I humbly suggest that you pay attention to your own learning (& davening) and not be so intrusive of other’s derachim.

    My point ws that it’s not learning mikol vakol, this being what i found offensive; there is no such valid “derech” in learning that involves not learning. I have nothing against any other derech in learning; aderabah, in vilna during the infancy of WWII when R Chaim Ozer ZT”L gathered many of the Eurpean yeshivos to Vilna, he kept them seperate bec a derech in learning is as much a chelek of Torah as the gemara itself and would therefore be a tremendous tragedy for a derech to be lost.

    Secondly, reading and chanting ANY sefer is quite legitimate in and of itself.

    There is no aveirah, true. But it is fooling yourself to think that that counts as Talmud Torah. (Tos says the two parts of the mitzvah is 1- yediah & 2- ameilus. ameilus is lacking obviously where you don’t really think; knowing a half baked idea in its utmost superficiality is not considered “knowing” exactly either.)

    My father, shlit”a (& he should be gezunt bis 120 yahrs mit simcha) memorized a number of sugyas in Shas, so that when a shayla was presented to him, he could quote the mekor in those Gemaras instantly.

    No one i know can memorize anything that fast, certainly not in such vast quantities.

    True, we have a mesora specifically for Tanach, Mishnayos (Maggid Mishnah) and Zohar/Tikkunei Zohar, but as mentioned earlier, ANY sefer is pleasing to HaShem.

    Again, i refer to the Chofetz Chaim i quoted earlier. (Besides, it is simply logical that if you have the choice of two mitzvos, the more pleasing one to HASHEM is greater, all else being equal, meaning just mitzad the kiyuis aspect itself.)

    I am quite certain that there were critics and pessimists who offered the same response (as you did) when Daf Yomi was in its infancy back in the 1920’s — see how it has blossomed today and caught on to include Yerushalmi, Tosefta, etc…

    While there were/are Gedolim who held that for a bachur in yeshiva, daf yomi would be detrimental (!), no one said it is like davening gemara at all.

    Again, at this time of Sefirat HaOmer when the talmidim of Rebbi Akiva perished because they were “lo nohagu kavod zeh lazeh”, it behooves us to be a little bit more respectful of everyone, no matter what madgreiga they are in life, no matter what derachim they choose, no matter what minhaghim they practice.

    I in no way am attacking the person. I do not pretend to know his life, personality, nisyonos, etc. I was merely pointing out that it’s a chaval that such a thing exists in the world, much as it is a chaval that there are tinokos shenishbos in the world, though i hardly think that we hold it against them.

    #1017074

    meaning just mitzad the kiyuis aspect itself

    Should read: meaning just mitzad the kiyumis aspect itself

    #1017075
    Eizena Kup
    Member

    Mochoh: Was that you, in the back of me? I remember hearing some noise while I was intensity chazering those bletter. Yes, I must humbly confess, I have a ‘shnela tefisa’ – hence my screen name (& sub-title too). I was doing my forty second time that mesichto (I believe it was Eiruvin). I was in a rush to finish so I had to learn that whole Perek in a half hour (mind you Gemarah – Rashi – Tosefos, some meforshim). Want to faher me?!?

    Gotta Go. Enough bittul Torah. I could have finished first 2 perakiim in Yevamos in this time – using my brain-power-hours…

    #1017076
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Hey Mocha,

    Rav Ashi Chazzered Kal Hatorah in thirty days. If that would be referring only to Shas Bavli then it means he went through 84 (K’minyan Daf) Bletter a day. I hope he didn’t get punished for those thirty days of Bittul Torah.

    Truth is, though, that if he learned for 20 hours those days that would be around four Blatt an hour. 7-8 minutes an Amud. Not that bad.

    #1017077
    zalman
    Participant

    he may be innocently fooling himself

    #1017078

    I agree with whoever you saw learning. When I chazar, I do it top speed (approximately 5 minutes per amud with rashi, and 12 minutes per amud with tosfos). In my view, the point of the chazara is to drill the gemara into my head. Due to this method of chazara, I know mnay gemaras by heart although some of the memory is fading with time. I think knowing a lot of material well enough to quote is extremely valuable.

    #1017079
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    There are definitely amudim that I chazer in under five minutes.

    #1017080

    I know what to do! find out which gemara he was learning. then ask him a random question on a daf you saw him speed read. If he doesn’t know the answer that means he is faking and you should give him hard mussar and tochacha. If he gets the question right you should be miskaved him and buy him lunch.

    #1017081

    I hope you are kidding. The question is not about this particular guy, its about his actions in general as they apply to him and others as well.

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